The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[ORD]

E65Ross said:

ORD said:

JagXJR said:

While you have a point in flat out 10/10ths driving a manual gives more satisfaction in use, an auto up to 9/10ths of the time does a better job. So yes it is the best of both worlds 90 % of the time.

It could be argued that you should not be driving a 3 litre car at 10/10ths on the road anyway, but that is a different debate.

I drive both an automatic and a manual, I prefer the auto for most driving. It does not change gear itself in manual mode but stays in the gear selected (unless slowing to a stop in which case the gear it choses is correct anyway).

Perhaps we should go back to sidevalve engines and manual starting handles?

Don't be obtuse. Some people prefer manual gear changes because they don't struggle to change gear and enjoy the additional involvement.

You don't need to be driving at anything like 10/10ths to enjoy a manual change. It's more enjoyable in anything but docile town driving or motorway cruising.

I agree with what you're saying, but how you've said "because they don't struggle to change gear" is not the right way of saying it.

I don't struggle to change gear in traffic, doesn't mean I enjoy it. It is more enjoyable in anything other than docile town driving and motorway cruising but hey, I spend literally almost all my driving doing just that. And I suspect many others do as well.

Fair comment.

I know that most people do boring driving most of the time, and I agree that changing gear (especially with a modern 6 speed box) is a hassle. I'm not saying that buying an auto doesn't make a great deal of sense. My car is PDK, so I get the case for autos.

My point is that it's nonesense to pretend that an auto is anything even approaching the best of both worlds. Unless going fast is the goal (which is very easy and very illegal), then it's all about the process rather than the outcome.

[E65Ross]

ORD said:

Fair comment.

I know that most people do boring driving most of the time, and I agree that changing gear (especially with a modern 6 speed box) is a hassle. I'm not saying that buying an auto doesn't make a great deal of sense. My car is PDK, so I get the case for autos.

My point is that it's nonesense to pretend that an auto is anything even approaching the best of both worlds. Unless going fast is the goal (which is very easy and very illegal), then it's all about the process rather than the outcome.

It depends on what you think what each gearbox offers.... The auto does offer the best of both worlds if you think that each world is easy and no hassle for changing gear in crap traffic and the manual is for having much better control over which gear you're in at any given time. In that case, it offers the best of both worlds.

If you view the manual for fun, then no it doesn't.

[FrankUnderwood]

I think a lot of it depends on the car, I certainly wouldn't want an auto in a Caterham, since it's a car that you have to drive rather than it doing it for you.

On the other hand an XJR I looked at buying would have been all wrong with a manual, I was tempted because most of my driving is on the M27 which isn't particularly exciting - and the Jag does comfort and effortlessness rather well.

Conversely again, can you imagine a Nissan GTR with a manual? The GTR is all about cutting edge technology rather than being old school. In the case of the supercar, manuals definitely belong in Corvette.

Overall the manual can only really justify itself from a drivers and emotive point of view, from a technical perspective it only has cost, weight and simplicity on its side.

Edited by FrankUnderwood on Wednesday 20th August 20:09

[cerb4.5lee]

E65Ross said:

ORD said:

Fair comment.

I know that most people do boring driving most of the time, and I agree that changing gear (especially with a modern 6 speed box) is a hassle. I'm not saying that buying an auto doesn't make a great deal of sense. My car is PDK, so I get the case for autos.

My point is that it's nonesense to pretend that an auto is anything even approaching the best of both worlds. Unless going fast is the goal (which is very easy and very illegal), then it's all about the process rather than the outcome.

It depends on what you think what each gearbox offers.... The auto does offer the best of both worlds if you think that each world is easy and no hassle for changing gear in crap traffic and the manual is for having much better control over which gear you're in at any given time. In that case, it offers the best of both worlds.

If you view the manual for fun, then no it doesn't.

Both good posts and it really is just how you feel about a specific gearbox and because I am either narrow minded or very old school I just cant see past the manual and that is the ultimate for me personally but I do get that an auto does give more flexibility in terms of when in traffic as its so much easier but when you want some fun I just find it lacking in manual mode but that's just me so in that situation it just doesn't offer the best of both worlds.

So for commuting an auto wins the day but if you want fun its a manual all the way.

[E65Ross]

cerb4.5lee said:

Both good posts and it really is just how you feel about a specific gearbox and because I am either narrow minded or very old school I just cant see past the manual and that is the ultimate for me personally but I do get that an auto does give more flexibility in terms of when in traffic as its so much easier but when you want some fun I just find it lacking in manual mode but that's just me so in that situation it just doesn't offer the best of both worlds.

So for commuting an auto wins the day but if you want fun its a manual all the way.

we 100% agree

[Patrick Bateman]

And for an only car it'd have to be a manual for me. No amount of irritating traffic could negate the desire for 3 pedals for those opportunities when the road is quiet and opens up to you. I would (and did) miss it too much.

But then I'm glad I don't live in a city.

[FrankUnderwood]

E65Ross said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Both good posts and it really is just how you feel about a specific gearbox and because I am either narrow minded or very old school I just cant see past the manual and that is the ultimate for me personally but I do get that an auto does give more flexibility in terms of when in traffic as its so much easier but when you want some fun I just find it lacking in manual mode but that's just me so in that situation it just doesn't offer the best of both worlds.

So for commuting an auto wins the day but if you want fun its a manual all the way.

we 100% agree

Well nearly agree on the fun thing, if I recall there are a few people on PH who didn't like the idea of DSG, as soon as they tried it they gave it a huge thumbs up.

[bennyboysvuk]

My commute is 50% empty NSL B-roads and 50% DC with lots of traffic lights and roundabouts thrown in, so for me the manual gearbox is my preference. It just works better for me more of the time. I greatly dislike the disconnected feeling of the auto, even in manual mode the connection between the throttle and the rear wheels seems very remote. I know this is absolutely down to the torque converter, but I dislike how it feels. I also dislike that in manual mode I have to look at the instrument cluster to know what gear I'm in, especially if I've knocked a lot of speed off quickly and dropped 4 gears. In a manual, I'd have heeled and toed my way down the box and the car would feel taut and ready to go, instead of clumsily changing down (no throttle blips on this auto).

I did of course buy the wrong car for the wrong application. If I drove it like it was designed to be driven then I'm sure there would be no issue.

[jamieduff1981]

I'd take an auto with good steering feel over a manual with bad steering feel every time for 'spirited' driving.

[Lowtimer]

FrankUnderwood said:

Well nearly agree on the fun thing, if I recall there are a few people on PH who didn't like the idea of DSG, as soon as they tried it they gave it a huge thumbs up.

For the record, I've tried in in both VWs and Porsches and still don;t like it. I can see that it's very good, but I would not take one over a manual unless I moved to somewhere around the M25. I just don't like using it. No particular reason other than the absence of direct clutch control and the lost ability to go direct from any gear to any other gear.

If I had to do a rush hour crawl round the M25 I would probably go for something with the 8-speed ZF box these days. I think the initial take-up and low speed creep are better for queue-crawling with a torque converter box than with a DSG type.

Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 21st August 09:23

[DonkeyApple]

Patrick Bateman said:

And for an only car it'd have to be a manual for me. No amount of irritating traffic could negate the desire for 3 pedals for those opportunities when the road is quiet and opens up to you. I would (and did) miss it too much.

But then I'm glad I don't live in a city.

Agree. If only one car then of have to bite the bullet and have manual. Simply because the 10% of the time it is more pleasure able is infinitely more rewarding than the 90% of the time when an auto is more convenient.

Re the city bit though, I disagree. Urban driving is where a badly set up auto is at its worst. Bogging down in junctions, not being able to react to continuous rapid changes ahead etc. as someone who has lived in Central London all my life I find the auto infuriating for one specific moment. This moment is when a gap opens and you want to nip towards it ahead of the next person. I'm not talking about aggressive driving but the simple London fact that if you don't show signs of moving to the gap then naturally someone else will. With a manual there is no hesitation, the moment you notice the gap you are moving at increased pace towards it and the others around you wait. With the auto you get a moments wait while it sets things up and responds to your random and out of the blue request. In that moment another car has noted that you aren't responding so takes the initiative to close the gap. Just as they close it, your auto delivers on the request and you jump towards the gap that has now gone.

It's a small thing and only really relevant to somewhere like London but my god is it an everyday issue that shows up a badly programmed auto box like the one that I own. It stops you from moving through traffic unless you just lock it in 2nd.

[E65Ross]

Lowtimer said:

FrankUnderwood said:

....the lost ability to go direct from any gear to any other gear.

I can't possibly fathom a thought why this is a worthy benefit; considering you can very quickly upshift or downshift several gears quicker than you can shift a couple manually (even as a block shift).

I still don't buy the "control" thing. Fun, yes. Anything else? Nah.

[JagXJR]

DonkeyApple said:

Agree. If only one car then of have to bite the bullet and have manual. Simply because the 10% of the time it is more pleasure able is infinitely more rewarding than the 90% of the time when an auto is more convenient.

Re the city bit though, I disagree. Urban driving is where a badly set up auto is at its worst. Bogging down in junctions, not being able to react to continuous rapid changes ahead etc. as someone who has lived in Central London all my life I find the auto infuriating for one specific moment. This moment is when a gap opens and you want to nip towards it ahead of the next person. I'm not talking about aggressive driving but the simple London fact that if you don't show signs of moving to the gap then naturally someone else will. With a manual there is no hesitation, the moment you notice the gap you are moving at increased pace towards it and the others around you wait. With the auto you get a moments wait while it sets things up and responds to your random and out of the blue request. In that moment another car has noted that you aren't responding so takes the initiative to close the gap. Just as they close it, your auto delivers on the request and you jump towards the gap that has now gone.

It's a small thing and only really relevant to somewhere like London but my god is it an everyday issue that shows up a badly programmed auto box like the one that I own. It stops you from moving through traffic unless you just lock it in 2nd.

I agree with the statements that you are directly conected with the driving experience, if you enjoy changing gear then fine.

Perhaps driving over 3 million miles in urban traffic has put me off changing gear, maybe I'm just getting old and want an easy life.

I must be driving a better auto than the people on here as mine have none of these traits. Kick down on both of mine is far quicker than changing gear manually, so you would have to be in 2nd gear in a manual to replicate this, not sure how many people drive round in low gears in anticipation of needing to accelerate into that gap?

The only mentioned trait mine has is a slight hesitation on slowing down and suddenly needing to accelerate, but this is no worse than the drive shunt of a manual such as my Alfa. So for me the autos do have the best of both transmission types. I will admit that the Alfa with an auto box would be a bit wrong however, some cars just should not be automatics I suppose.

[bennyboysvuk]

DonkeyApple said:

Agree. If only one car then of have to bite the bullet and have manual. Simply because the 10% of the time it is more pleasure able is infinitely more rewarding than the 90% of the time when an auto is more convenient.

Re the city bit though, I disagree. Urban driving is where a badly set up auto is at its worst. Bogging down in junctions, not being able to react to continuous rapid changes ahead etc. as someone who has lived in Central London all my life I find the auto infuriating for one specific moment. This moment is when a gap opens and you want to nip towards it ahead of the next person. I'm not talking about aggressive driving but the simple London fact that if you don't show signs of moving to the gap then naturally someone else will. With a manual there is no hesitation, the moment you notice the gap you are moving at increased pace towards it and the others around you wait. With the auto you get a moments wait while it sets things up and responds to your random and out of the blue request. In that moment another car has noted that you aren't responding so takes the initiative to close the gap. Just as they close it, your auto delivers on the request and you jump towards the gap that has now gone.

It's a small thing and only really relevant to somewhere like London but my god is it an everyday issue that shows up a badly programmed auto box like the one that I own. It stops you from moving through traffic unless you just lock it in 2nd.

I've noticed this 'feature' too and do exactly as you do; lock it in 2nd.

However, many's the time that I want instant flat out acceleration from a gently rolling pace in 2nd gear, however if I push the throttle far enough to hit the kickdown button then crucial moments are lost as the gearbox changes down a gear resulting in the revs flaring up to 5-6000 rpm and an almost immediate change to 2nd anyway.

I don't feel that the throttle is 100% open unless the throttle pedal is against the stop so it always feels like I'm missing some performance, unless I go through that kickdown procedure. Manuals are so much easier from this perspective, just mash the throttle into the floor and get instant drive.

[cerb4.5lee]

Lowtimer said:

FrankUnderwood said:

Well nearly agree on the fun thing, if I recall there are a few people on PH who didn't like the idea of DSG, as soon as they tried it they gave it a huge thumbs up.

For the record, I've tried in in both VWs and Porsches and still don;t like it. I can see that it's very good, but I would not take one over a manual unless I moved to somewhere around the M25. I just don't like using it. No particular reason other than the absence of direct clutch control and the lost ability to go direct from any gear to any other gear.

If I had to do a rush hour crawl round the M25 I would probably go for something with the 8-speed ZF box these days. I think the initial take-up and low speed creep are better for queue-crawling with a torque converter box than with a DSG type.

Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 21st August 09:23

This is also the same for me and how I feel as we have the S-Tronic in the TTS and don't get me wrong its smooth and very quick shifting but its not a very exciting or that engaging gearbox and even the mrs says if it wasn't the fact she does 30k miles a year she would prefer a manual too.

[DonkeyApple]

bennyboysvuk said:

DonkeyApple said:

Agree. If only one car then of have to bite the bullet and have manual. Simply because the 10% of the time it is more pleasure able is infinitely more rewarding than the 90% of the time when an auto is more convenient.

Re the city bit though, I disagree. Urban driving is where a badly set up auto is at its worst. Bogging down in junctions, not being able to react to continuous rapid changes ahead etc. as someone who has lived in Central London all my life I find the auto infuriating for one specific moment. This moment is when a gap opens and you want to nip towards it ahead of the next person. I'm not talking about aggressive driving but the simple London fact that if you don't show signs of moving to the gap then naturally someone else will. With a manual there is no hesitation, the moment you notice the gap you are moving at increased pace towards it and the others around you wait. With the auto you get a moments wait while it sets things up and responds to your random and out of the blue request. In that moment another car has noted that you aren't responding so takes the initiative to close the gap. Just as they close it, your auto delivers on the request and you jump towards the gap that has now gone.

It's a small thing and only really relevant to somewhere like London but my god is it an everyday issue that shows up a badly programmed auto box like the one that I own. It stops you from moving through traffic unless you just lock it in 2nd.

I've noticed this 'feature' too and do exactly as you do; lock it in 2nd.

However, many's the time that I want instant flat out acceleration from a gently rolling pace in 2nd gear, however if I push the throttle far enough to hit the kickdown button then crucial moments are lost as the gearbox changes down a gear resulting in the revs flaring up to 5-6000 rpm and an almost immediate change to 2nd anyway.

I don't feel that the throttle is 100% open unless the throttle pedal is against the stop so it always feels like I'm missing some performance, unless I go through that kickdown procedure. Manuals are so much easier from this perspective, just mash the throttle into the floor and get instant drive.

In our cars this delay is a combination of both the torque management and also checking that you haven't sneezed. The box believes it is wiser than the average customer. Which it probably is. There is also the issue with some kind of auto brake that needs to disengage if stationary which causes a significant hesitation.

The benefit of the manual is that you can get moving and thus inform others of your intent by simply slipping the clutch.

[FiF]

But this is just going round in circles.

Right at the beginning of the thread most agreed that the problem is that automatic boxes don't have a crystal ball. Also that the worst situation is leaving them in D in that typical situation approaching a roundabout say, planningto sstop but looking to go. So you're off the gas, slowing, slowing , slowing, and as the box has no crystal ball it doesn't know that any second you are going to mash the pedal and want to go go go.

Imo this is a driver fault, not planning ahead and putting the box into the appropriate ratio and holding it there. Admittedly with torque converter there is still some disconnection but DCT are getting pretty good in this respect.

And by way of side comment, if you know and learn the box it is possible to get some reasonable rates of acceleration with having a modicum of restraint and applying controlled throttle increases and not just mashing the throttle, the latter sounds too much like binary throttle inputs to me.

[bennyboysvuk]

FiF said:

And by way of side comment, if you know and learn the box it is possible to get some reasonable rates of acceleration with having a modicum of restraint and applying controlled throttle increases and not just mashing the throttle, the latter sounds too much like binary throttle inputs to me.

Yes, totally binary, but until you get to cars with over 300bhp then this is hardly an issue. I want thumping great acceleration immediately. In my manual 120D, when crawling towards a junction and then wanting sudden full throttle, I mash the throttle into the floor, wait whilst the revs increased to spin up the turbo, then lift off the throttle a bit as full boost arrives, but at least I get some off boost movement (albeit initially slow). My frustrations with the auto in the 330i is all far more likely due to my choice of car and not the auto's fault at all. Many have said in the thread that you need a huge amount of power and torque to make the auto work well and IMO the 258hp in my car doesn't quite make it.

[jamieduff1981]

bennyboysvuk said:

FiF said:

And by way of side comment, if you know and learn the box it is possible to get some reasonable rates of acceleration with having a modicum of restraint and applying controlled throttle increases and not just mashing the throttle, the latter sounds too much like binary throttle inputs to me.

Yes, totally binary, but until you get to cars with over 300bhp then this is hardly an issue. I want thumping great acceleration immediately. In my manual 120D, when crawling towards a junction and then wanting sudden full throttle, I mash the throttle into the floor, wait whilst the revs increased to spin up the turbo, then lift off the throttle a bit as full boost arrives, but at least I get some off boost movement (albeit initially slow). My frustrations with the auto in the 330i is all far more likely due to my choice of car and not the auto's fault at all. Many have said in the thread that you need a huge amount of power and torque to make the auto work well and IMO the 258hp in my car doesn't quite make it.

Let's be honest - if you want "thumping great acceleration" you're driving the wrong cars.

[bennyboysvuk]

jamieduff1981 said:

Let's be honest - if you want "thumping great acceleration" you're driving the wrong cars.

Too right, which is why I mostly commute on an R1.