The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
bennyboysvuk said:
FiF said:
And by way of side comment, if you know and learn the box it is possible to get some reasonable rates of acceleration with having a modicum of restraint and applying controlled throttle increases and not just mashing the throttle, the latter sounds too much like binary throttle inputs to me.
Yes, totally binary, but until you get to cars with over 300bhp then this is hardly an issue. I want thumping great acceleration immediately. In my manual 120D, when crawling towards a junction and then wanting sudden full throttle, I mash the throttle into the floor, wait whilst the revs increased to spin up the turbo, then lift off the throttle a bit as full boost arrives, but at least I get some off boost movement (albeit initially slow). My frustrations with the auto in the 330i is all far more likely due to my choice of car and not the auto's fault at all. Many have said in the thread that you need a huge amount of power and torque to make the auto work well and IMO the 258hp in my car doesn't quite make it.Which given the context of the argument that you can only be fully involved with a manual is quite amusing.
bennyboysvuk said:
My frustrations with the auto in the 330i is all far more likely due to my choice of car and not the auto's fault at all. Many have said in the thread that you need a huge amount of power and torque to make the auto work well and IMO the 258hp in my car doesn't quite make it.
Not true, my car with 231 hp works just fine. There is a slight delay when coasting to a stop when sudden acceleration is requested but this is no worse than the driveline shunt of a manual in similar driving.
FiF said:
Plus if the driver is wanting instant great acceleration then doing that from a position where the engine is off boost then, you know, aren't they possibly in the incorrect gear in the first place?
Which given the context of the argument that you can only be fully involved with a manual is quite amusing.
You are quite right, but that's laziness for you. Of course, if I'm really bothered about it I heel and toe it into first gear, but usually just having the initial drive is enough.Which given the context of the argument that you can only be fully involved with a manual is quite amusing.
That said, if going from a standstill, revving the 120d from tickover to the point where it gives meaningful shove is painfully slow compared to a decent NA petrol engine.
Traditionally the advice has been to avoid automatic turbocharged cars as the gearbox does not suit the engine due to the turbo lag, not sure if this has changed with newer boxes?
Never was an issue in the XJR as it is supercharged, maybe this is why Jaguar and Mecedes use supercharging on hi-end models?
Never was an issue in the XJR as it is supercharged, maybe this is why Jaguar and Mecedes use supercharging on hi-end models?
JagXJR said:
Not true, my car with 231 hp works just fine. There is a slight delay when coasting to a stop when sudden acceleration is requested but this is no worse than the driveline shunt of a manual in similar driving.
231 hp might feel ok, but 400 hp and 380 lbs ft would feel better. I'd still rather have that in manual form though. I think one of the things that highlights my priorities is that I cannot fault the sports bikes I've owned, which offer no driver aids at all (can an auto gearbox be called that?), regardless of the fact that there's a bit more power than my 120d can muster and no ABS or TC. I think I just prefer a more manual, better fed-back drive and the auto gearbox in the 330i (and the car as a whole) just doesn't work for me.
JagXJR said:
Traditionally the advice has been to avoid automatic turbocharged cars as the gearbox does not suit the engine due to the turbo lag, not sure if this has changed with newer boxes?
Never was an issue in the XJR as it is supercharged, maybe this is why Jaguar and Mecedes use supercharging on hi-end models?
Certainly not true these days. Most cars are turbo charged and most cars are automatics, even high performance cars. Never was an issue in the XJR as it is supercharged, maybe this is why Jaguar and Mecedes use supercharging on hi-end models?
Modern turbo engines simply don't have the horrendous lag of old cars. Both in terms of throttle delay or the terrible, huge sudden spike in power at higher rpm. Look at modern turbocharged engine torque curves, they're remarkably flat and deliver a lot of power very low down.... They happily suit a manual or an automatic.
JagXJR said:
Traditionally the advice has been to avoid automatic turbocharged cars as the gearbox does not suit the engine due to the turbo lag, not sure if this has changed with newer boxes?
It not changed in my experience we have a 2012 Audi TTS with the twin clutch gearbox and it seriously reminds me of old school Turbo engines because you literally put your foot down wait a bit then it rockets off because its such a laggy engine and I would be interested to know if its the same for the manual version though.I am not criticising the car for it as it doesn't really bother me its just a characteristic of the car but I have read that a remap is meant to make it less laggy which in its self surprised me as I thought that would make it even worse.
E65Ross said:
Modern turbo engines simply don't have the horrendous lag of old cars. Both in terms of throttle delay or the terrible, huge sudden spike in power at higher rpm. Look at modern turbocharged engine torque curves, they're remarkably flat and deliver a lot of power very low down.... They happily suit a manual or an automatic.
I do agree with this because I always read about how most BMW`s Turbo cars and they say you can hardly tell they have a blower on them and as you say most cars nowadays are turbo and autos, but our TTS is laughably bad on throttle delay and lag and even the mrs chuckles about how you stick your foot down wait then hang on!! JagXJR said:
Not true, my car with 231 hp works just fine. There is a slight delay when coasting to a stop when sudden acceleration is requested but this is no worse than the driveline shunt of a manual in similar driving.
Mine too. In fact I think it would be rubbish with a manual, it's not that sort of car. Horses for courses.Symbolica said:
JagXJR said:
Not true, my car with 231 hp works just fine. There is a slight delay when coasting to a stop when sudden acceleration is requested but this is no worse than the driveline shunt of a manual in similar driving.
Mine too. In fact I think it would be rubbish with a manual, it's not that sort of car. Horses for courses.Personally I think the core issue is that they haven't developed the TCM map anywhere to the extent that they do on the far higher volume diesel applications, which I've driven in 1 and 7 series form and are much better. Plus the idiot protection on the cars is immensely irritating if you are a competent driver.
cerb4.5lee said:
E65Ross said:
Modern turbo engines simply don't have the horrendous lag of old cars. Both in terms of throttle delay or the terrible, huge sudden spike in power at higher rpm. Look at modern turbocharged engine torque curves, they're remarkably flat and deliver a lot of power very low down.... They happily suit a manual or an automatic.
I do agree with this because I always read about how most BMW`s Turbo cars and they say you can hardly tell they have a blower on them and as you say most cars nowadays are turbo and autos, but our TTS is laughably bad on throttle delay and lag and even the mrs chuckles about how you stick your foot down wait then hang on!! E65Ross said:
cerb4.5lee said:
E65Ross said:
Modern turbo engines simply don't have the horrendous lag of old cars. Both in terms of throttle delay or the terrible, huge sudden spike in power at higher rpm. Look at modern turbocharged engine torque curves, they're remarkably flat and deliver a lot of power very low down.... They happily suit a manual or an automatic.
I do agree with this because I always read about how most BMW`s Turbo cars and they say you can hardly tell they have a blower on them and as you say most cars nowadays are turbo and autos, but our TTS is laughably bad on throttle delay and lag and even the mrs chuckles about how you stick your foot down wait then hang on!! 
I have never driven a petrol turbo BMW but as you are suggesting everything I have read about them is awesome regards the way they feel and the M6 is the ultimate for me too so much pace presence and power.I think there is a lot of truth in that point about a lot of auto boxes being better suited to (and mapped around) turbo diesel engines. The 320d that I drove recently was very impressive in a lot of ways - the gearbox and engine were perfectly suited to each other and mutually complementary. The box did a great job of smoothing out the delivery and keeping the engine in its sweet spot; and the engine delivered its power in a way that the box could use easily, without any jerks and without much lag (although it could fall down ocaddionally).
I am currently driving a diesel Fiat Brava rental car that is a complete joke in manual guise. It is very hard to drive without exposing the engine's small power band and very lumpy delivery. A good auto box could hide a lot of that. For example, it has a great chasm between 1st and 2nd gears so you have to rev the nuts off it in 1st and rev match into second every time you pull off; you also have to change down into 1st quite a lot around town, which is a hassle given the need to rev match and be very gentle with the clutch. A good auto would smooth that all out and give the impression of much more power than is actually available.
I am currently driving a diesel Fiat Brava rental car that is a complete joke in manual guise. It is very hard to drive without exposing the engine's small power band and very lumpy delivery. A good auto box could hide a lot of that. For example, it has a great chasm between 1st and 2nd gears so you have to rev the nuts off it in 1st and rev match into second every time you pull off; you also have to change down into 1st quite a lot around town, which is a hassle given the need to rev match and be very gentle with the clutch. A good auto would smooth that all out and give the impression of much more power than is actually available.
ORD said:
I think there is a lot of truth in that point about a lot of auto boxes being better suited to (and mapped around) turbo diesel engines. The 320d that I drove recently was very impressive in a lot of ways - the gearbox and engine were perfectly suited to each other and mutually complementary. The box did a great job of smoothing out the delivery and keeping the engine in its sweet spot; and the engine delivered its power in a way that the box could use easily, without any jerks and without much lag (although it could fall down ocaddionally).
I am currently driving a diesel Fiat Brava rental car that is a complete joke in manual guise. It is very hard to drive without exposing the engine's small power band and very lumpy delivery. A good auto box could hide a lot of that. For example, it has a great chasm between 1st and 2nd gears so you have to rev the nuts off it in 1st and rev match into second every time you pull off; you also have to change down into 1st quite a lot around town, which is a hassle given the need to rev match and be very gentle with the clutch. A good auto would smooth that all out and give the impression of much more power than is actually available.
Those types of hire car are like ginger kids in a council estate. Begging for a beating. I am currently driving a diesel Fiat Brava rental car that is a complete joke in manual guise. It is very hard to drive without exposing the engine's small power band and very lumpy delivery. A good auto box could hide a lot of that. For example, it has a great chasm between 1st and 2nd gears so you have to rev the nuts off it in 1st and rev match into second every time you pull off; you also have to change down into 1st quite a lot around town, which is a hassle given the need to rev match and be very gentle with the clutch. A good auto would smooth that all out and give the impression of much more power than is actually available.
To be frank, they are just s
t. Doesn't matter what type of gearbox they have. DonkeyApple said:
Those types of hire car are like ginger kids in a council estate. Begging for a beating.
To be frank, they are just st. Doesn't matter what type of gearbox they have.
True true, but I am used to sTo be frank, they are just s
t. Doesn't matter what type of gearbox they have. t. I drove my wife's Chevrolet Kalos to the airport so was not coming out of something worth more than £500. The Fiat has a reasonable amount of grunt - it's perfectly capable of overtaking and maintaining speed on the motorway. But it's a very old-fashioned diesel as regards its power delivery: nothing, nothing, everything, nothing. It's also the easiest car to stall that I have ever driven (that's my excuse and I am sticking with it!).
I imagine it's a turbo 1.8 with about 100-120bhp but in some ways it is less enjoyable to drive than the 70bhp crap box that got me to the airport. That said, the Kalos has to be driven to be believed. It's a 2005 car and is easily the worst non-2CV that I have ever driven. It's reasonable fun at times because it has to be ragged to death to make progress and its gearing is sensible, but it's so unstable and has so little steering feel that it is genuinely frightening to take above 60mph.
As someone who can only drive auto's (knackered left leg) these days i've been through a few automatic cars. Most of these cars were made before 1995 so none of this new twin clutch malarky!
For the most part I find driving with an auto to be just fine but it does depend on the manufacturer, for instance, both soarers (twin turbo and v8) had brilliant gearboxes that made the car feel spritely and always seemed to be in the optimum gear, as does our little yaris.
My old nissan Silvia ZX turbo on the hand had a bit of a dog of an autobox, it took a long time to kick down and when it did it gave you whiplash! it also had a strong liking for staying in far too high a gear when rolling up to a roundabout etc. However it was massivly strong and stood up to the abuse I used to give it (piling on the revs in neutral then dumping it into drive to get a launch!)
The 3 FTO's i've had also had a bit of a liking to hanging onto 3rd gear at too slow a speed but the tiptronic function gave me the ability to just drop down to second so never really noticed it.
The Legnum VR4 I have owned for over 2 years now has a wonderfull gearbox, it's still the same INVECS2 tiptronic system as an FTO but it works so much better, it drops to 2nd when approaching a junction when you want it to and when flat out using the tiptronic then gearshifts are very fast yet smooth.The torque converter seems to be very fast at taking up drive with very little of that auto-lag you normally get. Don't get me wrong, the new breed of DSG type 'boxes are bound to be miles better but for an 18 year old 5 speed torque converter autobox it gives very little to complain about! (frequent ATF changes are about the only gripe!)
I used to drive a variety of 1980's hot hatches that were all manual before my leg finally called time out so I have had a good amount of "stick time" but even now I have never once thought to myself "I wish I had a manual"! I enjoy every minute behind the wheel of my legnum, it keeps up with any of the manual legnums running similar power and I certainly appreciate the lack of a clutch every time i'm in a traffic jam!
For the most part I find driving with an auto to be just fine but it does depend on the manufacturer, for instance, both soarers (twin turbo and v8) had brilliant gearboxes that made the car feel spritely and always seemed to be in the optimum gear, as does our little yaris.
My old nissan Silvia ZX turbo on the hand had a bit of a dog of an autobox, it took a long time to kick down and when it did it gave you whiplash! it also had a strong liking for staying in far too high a gear when rolling up to a roundabout etc. However it was massivly strong and stood up to the abuse I used to give it (piling on the revs in neutral then dumping it into drive to get a launch!)
The 3 FTO's i've had also had a bit of a liking to hanging onto 3rd gear at too slow a speed but the tiptronic function gave me the ability to just drop down to second so never really noticed it.
The Legnum VR4 I have owned for over 2 years now has a wonderfull gearbox, it's still the same INVECS2 tiptronic system as an FTO but it works so much better, it drops to 2nd when approaching a junction when you want it to and when flat out using the tiptronic then gearshifts are very fast yet smooth.The torque converter seems to be very fast at taking up drive with very little of that auto-lag you normally get. Don't get me wrong, the new breed of DSG type 'boxes are bound to be miles better but for an 18 year old 5 speed torque converter autobox it gives very little to complain about! (frequent ATF changes are about the only gripe!)
I used to drive a variety of 1980's hot hatches that were all manual before my leg finally called time out so I have had a good amount of "stick time" but even now I have never once thought to myself "I wish I had a manual"! I enjoy every minute behind the wheel of my legnum, it keeps up with any of the manual legnums running similar power and I certainly appreciate the lack of a clutch every time i'm in a traffic jam!
I do a fair bit of driving on nice country roads, with many up hill tightish, [70 to 90 Km/H] corners in up hill roads. Auto's used to really annoy me, when you would be accelerating into such curves, & have to lift off as you arrived at them.
The damn things would of course change up, then make a hell of a meal finding the right gear to accelerate out of them. Yes you could manually slot a gear, but autos leave a lot to be desired when manually selecting gears, & I can't stand sequential things.
I was surprised when I discovered my ladies Mazda 2 had tried to overcome this problem, I did not expect it in a shopping trolley. When accelerating up hill it would hold what ever gear it was in, when you backed off for a few seconds. In fact you could not get the thing to change up in this situation, until you were over 6500 RPM, with a lot of throttle on. If you lifted off at say 4000 RPM, the damn thing would actually roll to a stop without changing up.
I gather they have got this better organised in the latest ones. Nice to see them trying.
The damn things would of course change up, then make a hell of a meal finding the right gear to accelerate out of them. Yes you could manually slot a gear, but autos leave a lot to be desired when manually selecting gears, & I can't stand sequential things.
I was surprised when I discovered my ladies Mazda 2 had tried to overcome this problem, I did not expect it in a shopping trolley. When accelerating up hill it would hold what ever gear it was in, when you backed off for a few seconds. In fact you could not get the thing to change up in this situation, until you were over 6500 RPM, with a lot of throttle on. If you lifted off at say 4000 RPM, the damn thing would actually roll to a stop without changing up.
I gather they have got this better organised in the latest ones. Nice to see them trying.
cerb4.5lee said:
It not changed in my experience we have a 2012 Audi TTS with the twin clutch gearbox and it seriously reminds me of old school Turbo engines because you literally put your foot down wait a bit then it rockets off because its such a laggy engine and I would be interested to know if its the same for the manual version though.
If you've got the box in drive I can quite understand the "lag" issues as the box will be deliberately keeping the rev's down to maximise fuel economy and thus the engine will be off boost or at very low boost. The gear ratio's allow for 35MPH in 5th. In S mode it should be far more urgent and generally free from lag. The manual version will really depend on how you drive it, if you follow the gear selection guidance then yes it will feel very laggy. Drive it normally ignoring the guidance and it won't but you'll sacrifice fuel economy somewhat.
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