The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[rambo19]

Blimey!
I thought the 3 speed autos on my granadas and cortinas were the nuts!

[tr7v8]

I'd agree with the fluid change comment. Did this to both the Boxster & the Jeep & it made a big difference. In the Boxster they reset the TCU & it then relearnt over a few 100 miles. Like a different car.
With the congestion these days I wouldn't bother with a manual at all unless it was for pure track day or competition use.

[Dodsy]

BL Fanboy said:

Hmm, 2.5 and 3.0 litre you say? Wonder if the software on the box was changed for the later 2.6 and 3.2 litre cars..

I believe the software update on the boxes was a late addition. Unless the car has had a reflash its most likely on an older version. Go to www.omegaowners.com and ask. They have several members with the laptops, firmware and knowledge to check your car and upgrade it if necessary.

My 3.0 had an aircon, gearbox and stereo firmware upgrade. The gearbox was miles better, much much smoother shift and better shift pattern and the aircon was massively improved as well. Stereo I didnt see any difference.

[lord trumpton]

Dodsy said:

BL Fanboy said:

Hmm, 2.5 and 3.0 litre you say? Wonder if the software on the box was changed for the later 2.6 and 3.2 litre cars..

I believe the software update on the boxes was a late addition. Unless the car has had a reflash its most likely on an older version. Go to www.omegaowners.com and ask. They have several members with the laptops, firmware and knowledge to check your car and upgrade it if necessary.

My 3.0 had an aircon, gearbox and stereo firmware upgrade. The gearbox was miles better, much much smoother shift and better shift pattern and the aircon was massively improved as well. Stereo I didnt see any difference.

Did you hear any difference though?

[bennyboysvuk]

bennyboysvuk said:

Quite right. I think I get more frustrated by these things than other drivers might too, hence my post. I do use the manual shift quite often, but I find on my 12 mile commute that I'll slip the box into manual mode on probably 5 occasions in maybe 20 minutes of driving...which probably suggests that I should have chosen a manual as the auto isn't really suitable for my needs. Oh well, live and learn.

Sump said:

You're overcomplicating this! You don't know how to drive with an auto. Give it some time and you will learn...

I know how the auto responds though if I leave it in drive. I could change my driving and just ignore all the pointless up changes and down changes that the gearbox makes, but that's wrong in my mind.

[bennyboysvuk]

cerb4.5lee said:

I still prefer the slower dark aged manual set up though as it just cant be bettered for feel, enjoyment and overall satisfaction for me personally.

Again, I find myself nodding and agreeing with you completely.

[Mr Will]

bennyboysvuk said:

bennyboysvuk said:

Quite right. I think I get more frustrated by these things than other drivers might too, hence my post. I do use the manual shift quite often, but I find on my 12 mile commute that I'll slip the box into manual mode on probably 5 occasions in maybe 20 minutes of driving...which probably suggests that I should have chosen a manual as the auto isn't really suitable for my needs. Oh well, live and learn.

Sump said:

You're overcomplicating this! You don't know how to drive with an auto. Give it some time and you will learn...

I know how the auto responds though if I leave it in drive. I could change my driving and just ignore all the pointless up changes and down changes that the gearbox makes, but that's wrong in my mind.

We're not asking you to ignore them. A small amount of attention to where your right foot is should let you predict and control them. e.g. "If I back off fractionally less here, the box won't shift up so won't have to shift down again ten seconds later". It becomes instinctual after a while.

[DonkeyApple]

bennyboysvuk said:

DonkeyApple said:

However, a couple of the OPs issues are really down to driver misjudgement. The box can't predict the road ahead (apart from in a Rolls) it can only read the current data and make a descision. There are times when you know that these conditions are going to change quicker than the box can work out so you have to take control. Joining slip roads off roundabouts going uphill is a classic. You know exactly what is about to happen and what needs to be done but the gearbox has no data on how long the corner is, how steep the gradient is or that you now need to go from 30 to 70. It knows non of this and so you must take control by starting your exit from the apex by putting the car in the right gear yourself. So typically that means manually notching down a gear or two to find the bottom of the torque curve going into the start of the corner etc.

Quite right. I think I get more frustrated by these things than other drivers might too, hence my post. I do use the manual shift quite often, but I find on my 12 mile commute that I'll slip the box into manual mode on probably 5 occasions in maybe 20 minutes of driving...which probably suggests that I should have chosen a manual as the auto isn't really suitable for my needs. Oh well, live and learn.

Oh, it's fking annoying when the gearbox gets it wrong. No doubt about that. I drove down to Devon yesterday to look at a car and on the way back I made the mistake of not telling the car what gear I wanted as I joined a roundabout to hook hard left onto he M5. Net result was that it bogged down in the middle of the roundabout. I had one of those Basil Fawlty moments where you want to give the car a damn good thrashing but the reality was that it was completely my error.

I think of auto boxes as a bit like employees. A good one will plod along and do its basic job day in, day out, without error or issue but when you want it to do something that is not under its usual remit you will get the best results by project managing them directly rather than expecting them to deliver the same quality work as usual without any assistance.

Also like staff, hard work (torque) hides a lot of issues such as stupidity. But, a not very bright worker who works hard is infinitely more valuable than one who thinks he is smart and instead of just doing their job well and reliably causes you endless trouble by their erroneous second guessing of what you need. I find the semi intelligent auto boxes to be the most enraging devices ever put in cars. I had one in a 540i and you'd be stuck behind a tractor for a few miles and when you had a window to overtake you'd bury the pedal and the engine would suddenly reply 'you've been driving very slowly recently so this action is out of character, you must have had a spasm and slapped the throttle accidentally so I'll not give you any power'. I will never, ever, ever intentionally buy any car which has an auto box TCU that is intuitive to that level (likewise employees ).

Only the driver has the vision and ability to see the whole picture and for a manufacturer to believe that their gearbox, which is making assumptions from far less data than the driver, is a superior intellect than their customer is the reason I decided never to buy a BMW again after the 540. Unfortunately for me, two sproggs later and the Home Office needing an auto runabout for them and me learning that the 1 Series was the only hatchback that gave me the leg room that I like because it's not a transverse fwd engine and then discovering that they have shoehorned my favourite type of engine (straight 6) into one resulted in me buying another.

This one is far less intrusive. You can't feel it making errors based in its own retarded thinking. It's generally a dumb box which is good but 6 gears means 6 opportunities to balls it up so I am very much in the habit of knocking it to second once crawling at a roundabout junction so I'm locked in that gear and not relying on Mr fkwit to realise I suddenly want to floor it. Or knock it down one gear approaching a corner so that it holds in gear for the duration etc.

I never use the Sport mode manual change as it is crap. All they have done is increased the line pressures to get a faster change in exchange for a rougher change and increased the rev limit where it changes and my style of road driving generLly short shifts all the time. Plus, there is no pleasure from changing a gear with a button. If I'm going to do all the work I want the reward of the physical, mechanical interaction of a manual box.

I think that if you think of your auto box as being a moron trying to do a task then you know when to intervene to preempt a disaster and as such they work much, much better.

[McSatan]

My Mum had a Daf 44 Variomatic. That was quite something to drive.

[ORD]

The problem with clever 'boxes is that they aint as clever as me. For this reason, I generally drive around in manual mode except when in town and just pootling (and even then I change down manually a fair bit because I don't like the car deciding it should accelerate at 1,200rpm rather than changing down).

It is not always a matter of driver error. You cannot use the pedals to make an auto change down a gear for gentle acceleration (i.e. where you, unlike the box, think a lower gear is more mechanically sympathetic). Yes, I do think I know better than the PDK unit - it is trying to be an eco warrior at the expense of some wear, and I couldn't give a crap about 1mpg difference.

[FiF]

McSatan said:

My Mum had a Daf 44 Variomatic. That was quite something to drive.

So did mine. Yep it was err different.

6v electrics. Better to have two ruddy glowworms than those headlights , even if they were Cibie designed.

Having said that it was no different from other auto transmissions in that there was a certain satisfaction in learning how to drive it and use it to best effect. Not to mention the slippy diff effect in slidey conditions.

[Mr Will]

ORD said:

It is not always a matter of driver error. You cannot use the pedals to make an auto change down a gear for gentle acceleration (i.e. where you, unlike the box, think a lower gear is more mechanically sympathetic). Yes, I do think I know better than the PDK unit - it is trying to be an eco warrior at the expense of some wear, and I couldn't give a crap about 1mpg difference.

You can in every one I've ever driven. A gentle blip on the accelerator then returning the pedal to where you had it before causes the car to change down a gear (and hold it) without accelerating any faster. Better yet; keep the pedal just below the point at which it up-shifts to avoid ending up in the "wrong" gear in the first place.

Admittedly my knowledge of automatic boxes is not encyclopaedic and this may not work with a PDK box and 300+ horses behind you but it works perfectly in the old-school boxes that everyone loves to hate.

[DonkeyApple]

Mr Will said:

You can in every one I've ever driven. A gentle blip on the accelerator then returning the pedal to where you had it before causes the car to change down a gear (and hold it) without accelerating any faster. Better yet; keep the pedal just below the point at which it up-shifts to avoid ending up in the "wrong" gear in the first place.

Admittedly my knowledge of automatic boxes is not encyclopaedic and this may not work with a PDK box and 300+ horses behind you but it works perfectly in the old-school boxes that everyone loves to hate.

I can do that with the ZX box in the old Rangies but in the 130 it absolutely freaks out and hurls you forward in a sudden lunge and then deliberately bogs down. I suspect it thinks you are some retard who just sneezed and has lost control of the vehicle.

[J4CKO]

Love the fact that PH is full of "Gearbox Whisperers", using age old mysterious methods to tame wild automatic transmissions.

I dont mind Auto's but its a bit like being a passenger with the wife, i.e. spend most of the journey thinking "Change gear FFS", she is a decent driver but does tend to get tired and a bit lazy with the changes, say hoofing along in fourth on a dual carriageway, at least an auto box doesnt get a collosal bag on if you suggest that it may like to shift up a gear, maybe two.

[Mr Will]

DonkeyApple said:

I can do that with the ZX box in the old Rangies but in the 130 it absolutely freaks out and hurls you forward in a sudden lunge and then deliberately bogs down. I suspect it thinks you are some retard who just sneezed and has lost control of the vehicle.

Interesting. I did have suspicions that the more modern ones might do something stupid!

[Sump]

Honestly I don't understand where you are getting these issues from. I've owned nothing but autos for the last 6 years and intend never to own a manual in the future. I've never said to my car please up shift or downshift..

If I want it to down shift you apply throttle ever so gently and you will just naturally feel it at the poiny it will go to down shift. Same for up shift but you take the throttle off ever so slightly and it will up shift up.

I imagine the people complaining able the off on tho type types who have no control.

[FiF]

J4CKO said:

Love the fact that PH is full of "Gearbox Whisperers", using age old mysterious methods to tame wild automatic transmissions.

I dont mind Auto's but its a bit like being a passenger with the wife, i.e. spend most of the journey thinking "Change gear FFS", she is a decent driver but does tend to get tired and a bit lazy with the changes, say hoofing along in fourth on a dual carriageway, at least an auto box doesnt get a collosal bag on if you suggest that it may like to shift up a gear, maybe two.

or like years ago the very first time I drove a six speed manual. It was a hire car after a flight from Brazil which included a stupidly long wait for a connection at Frankfurt with nowhere comfortable to sit down. Going up the E4, completely knackered, got about half an hour north of Uppsala thinking ' this is a revvy little bar steward to say, yes, I'm definitely in 5th.... oh!'

[McSatan]

The SMG in the M3 is a pain in auto when in traffic, unless you wind the rev thingy where it changes away up. It always tries to select too high a gear. OTOH, when you're 'making progress' it's great, works just like it's supposed to. The Porsche tiptronic one is ace, only ever bother with the flappy paddles to drop an extra gear for overtaking.

[J4CKO]

FiF said:

J4CKO said:

Love the fact that PH is full of "Gearbox Whisperers", using age old mysterious methods to tame wild automatic transmissions.

I dont mind Auto's but its a bit like being a passenger with the wife, i.e. spend most of the journey thinking "Change gear FFS", she is a decent driver but does tend to get tired and a bit lazy with the changes, say hoofing along in fourth on a dual carriageway, at least an auto box doesnt get a collosal bag on if you suggest that it may like to shift up a gear, maybe two.

or like years ago the very first time I drove a six speed manual. It was a hire car after a flight from Brazil which included a stupidly long wait for a connection at Frankfurt with nowhere comfortable to sit down. Going up the E4, completely knackered, got about half an hour north of Uppsala thinking ' this is a revvy little bar steward to say, yes, I'm definitely in 5th.... oh!'

My wifes aunt traded her Mk3 Escort Estate (Puritan Edition) for the then new Mk4 and after some months a passenger suggested possibly changing up to 5th gear, as they were on the M56, she was taken aback as she was not aware that it had five gears, her old one only had four !

[FiF]

J4CKO said:

FiF said:

J4CKO said:

Love the fact that PH is full of "Gearbox Whisperers", using age old mysterious methods to tame wild automatic transmissions.

I dont mind Auto's but its a bit like being a passenger with the wife, i.e. spend most of the journey thinking "Change gear FFS", she is a decent driver but does tend to get tired and a bit lazy with the changes, say hoofing along in fourth on a dual carriageway, at least an auto box doesnt get a collosal bag on if you suggest that it may like to shift up a gear, maybe two.

or like years ago the very first time I drove a six speed manual. It was a hire car after a flight from Brazil which included a stupidly long wait for a connection at Frankfurt with nowhere comfortable to sit down. Going up the E4, completely knackered, got about half an hour north of Uppsala thinking ' this is a revvy little bar steward to say, yes, I'm definitely in 5th.... oh!'

My wifes aunt traded her Mk3 Escort Estate (Puritan Edition) for the then new Mk4 and after some months a passenger suggested possibly changing up to 5th gear, as they were on the M56, she was taken aback as she was not aware that it had five gears, her old one only had four !

Dare I say that, until I sorted her out, on motorways and duals the Mrs could keep a nice steady position within her lane, or change into 5th, but not safely do both. Your comment about getting 'a colossal bag on' when a suggestion is made took me right back to that moment.