Freudian slip in Audi Brochure

[V8 Fettler]

GetCarter said:

GoneAnon said:

There aren't many hire cars from the last 7-10 years that DON'T have ABS given that it's been a european requirement on new, volume-produced, cars since 2007!

I haven't hired a car in the past 7 years. It was when I did, that I was so surprised that AVIS had no idea if their cars had ABS or not. And I BET... if I asked locals today how to brake using ABS or not ABS, very few would know (and most cars round here are over 7 years old!).

ETA, I even wrote a (short) book about how not to hit deer and crash/burn up here, as so many were doing so, and gave it away to all the teenage kids. Didn't make a bit of a difference mind... they still all end up with deer on their laps, or upside down in the peat bog.

Edited by GetCarter on Sunday 20th July 18:35

Sounds interesting, why not put it up on PH? Deer's reactions do not appear to have any consistency, some run towards to your path, some run away, some freeze.

[Debaser]

Greg66 said:

Jon1967x said:

If your brake pedal is pulsing you would be better off easing off the brake pedal a little until it stops. ABS kicking in helps you steer but is far from the quickest way of stopping.

^ this. All the time the ABS is pulsing, it is not applying brake force for a fraction of a second. If you want to stop in the shortest distance, you're best off keeping the pedal just below the threshold at which ABS kicks in. Which takes practice.

Whilst you're correct, I don't think advising the average driver to ease off the brakes in an emergency situation is a good idea. Simply getting them to brake hard enough in the first place can be very tricky.

[Jon1967x]

If they haven't braked hard enough the abs won't have kicked in.

Equally... Some are under the very wrong impression that you need the abs to be activated to be stopping as quickly as possible. Anyone on here that's thinking about any of this needs to find an open and safe bit of road and try a few things out.

[anonymous-user]

Debaser said:

Greg66 said:

Jon1967x said:

If your brake pedal is pulsing you would be better off easing off the brake pedal a little until it stops. ABS kicking in helps you steer but is far from the quickest way of stopping.

^ this. All the time the ABS is pulsing, it is not applying brake force for a fraction of a second. If you want to stop in the shortest distance, you're best off keeping the pedal just below the threshold at which ABS kicks in. Which takes practice.

Whilst you're correct, I don't think advising the average driver to ease off the brakes in an emergency situation is a good idea. Simply getting them to brake hard enough in the first place can be very tricky.

Don't disagree with the proposition that most people don't brake hard enough. Maybe, just maybe, that and how ABS works, and how to brake most efficiently are part of what the course that the OP posted attempts to teach.

[Campo]

I'm not sure why people think the ABS pulsing is necessarily the wheel locking up.

Modern ABS systems can reduce brake pressure just at the cusp of locking up and hence can stop the car quicker than braking without ABS for the majority of drivers.

I agree in the old systems they were dumber and just waited for a lock up before lowering the brake pressure applied slightly and so on over and over again.

[Debaser]

Greg66 said:

Debaser said:

Greg66 said:

Jon1967x said:

If your brake pedal is pulsing you would be better off easing off the brake pedal a little until it stops. ABS kicking in helps you steer but is far from the quickest way of stopping.

^ this. All the time the ABS is pulsing, it is not applying brake force for a fraction of a second. If you want to stop in the shortest distance, you're best off keeping the pedal just below the threshold at which ABS kicks in. Which takes practice.

Whilst you're correct, I don't think advising the average driver to ease off the brakes in an emergency situation is a good idea. Simply getting them to brake hard enough in the first place can be very tricky.

Don't disagree with the proposition that most people don't brake hard enough. Maybe, just maybe, that and how ABS works, and how to brake most efficiently are part of what the course that the OP posted attempts to teach.

They'll teach them to brake hard, and give an overview on how ABS works. They won't teach them to ease off the brakes in an emergency.

[irocfan]

Greg66 said:

Jon1967x said:

If your brake pedal is pulsing you would be better off easing off the brake pedal a little until it stops. ABS kicking in helps you steer but is far from the quickest way of stopping.

^ this. All the time the ABS is pulsing, it is not applying brake force for a fraction of a second. If you want to stop in the shortest distance, you're best off keeping the pedal just below the threshold at which ABS kicks in. Which takes practice.

you both right and wrong - to the average person ABS is a Godsend and is way better than they could manage on their own in an emergency. Obviously no-one on PH is anything less than a driving demi-god at worst and so ABS is way beneath their talent level.

FWIW, yes I do understand that on gravel and fresh snow in particular ABS can actually increase stopping distances but that's a whole other arguement

[Jon1967x]

irocfan said:

you both right and wrong - to the average person ABS is a Godsend and is way better than they could manage on their own in an emergency. Obviously no-one on PH is anything less than a driving demi-god at worst and so ABS is way beneath their talent level.

FWIW, yes I do understand that on gravel and fresh snow in particular ABS can actually increase stopping distances but that's a whole other arguement

Its not condition where fresh snow or gravel would mound up in front of a tyre to aid breaking which is the classical "ABS makes things worse" scenario and a lock up is better - we're still talking about cars with ABS.

No point falling out - rule #1 - brake as hard as you need to. If you feel interested, go out and play in your car somewhere safe and see the effect where less can sometimes be more. Its akin to traction control making you accelerate as quickly as you can - it doesn't, it just stops your wheels spinning if you break traction.

[Tango13]

V8 Fettler said:

Sounds interesting, why not put it up on PH? Deer's reactions do not appear to have any consistency, some run towards to your path, some run away, some freeze.

I find the best way for a deer to freeze is after impact, skinning and subsequent gutting. It doesn't alter the fact that your engine is now behind the dash and upon your lap but hey, at least the car is now mid-engined

[V8 Fettler]

deercollisions dot co dot uk ! http://www.deercollisions.co.uk/

Never a problem when out and about in the TVR, perhaps the bike needs a louder can?

[garycat]

The Car Limits course run by Andy Walsh was a real eye opener on braking. When braking from high speed you can really stamp on the pedal and the wheels don't lock up because of the amount of rotational momentum in them. As you slow down you slightly ease off, keeping the maximum energy in the pedal without locking them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsgu8AJZakQ (from around 3m30s)

[V8 Fettler]

garycat said:

The Car Limits course run by Andy Walsh was a real eye opener on braking. When braking from high speed you can really stamp on the pedal and the wheels don't lock up because of the amount of rotational momentum in them. As you slow down you slightly ease off, keeping the maximum energy in the pedal without locking them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsgu8AJZakQ (from around 3m30s)

Most drivers don't get anywhere near the braking limits of a modern car, hence "emergency braking assist" and similar.

[thiscocks]

Jon1967x said:

Its not condition where fresh snow or gravel would mound up in front of a tyre to aid breaking which is the classical "ABS makes things worse" scenario and a lock up is better - we're still talking about cars with ABS.

No point falling out - rule #1 - brake as hard as you need to. If you feel interested, go out and play in your car somewhere safe and see the effect where less can sometimes be more. Its akin to traction control making you accelerate as quickly as you can - it doesn't, it just stops your wheels spinning if you break traction.

So you think you could stop faster than a modern ABS equiped car on a dry road in the same car without it? Dont think so.

[Rawwr]

thiscocks said:

So you think you could stop faster than a modern ABS equiped car on a dry road in the same car without it? Dont think so.

Wouldn't surprise me. The point of ABS is not to stop you quickly, it's just there to allow you to control the car under panicked braking. In a measured, controlled test, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a reasonably competent driver using threshold braking could stop in a shorter distance than someone mashing the pedal and relying on ABS.

[GoneAnon]

With modern ABS and ESP systems monitoring wheel rotation 30 or more times per second and able to predict lock-up and ease off momentarily, I wouldn't worry about the fractions of a fraction of a second where I'm not getting optimum braking force.

For us mere mortals in an emergency situation, the best advice is to hit your brake pedal as hard as you can, keep your foot hard down, and concentrate on steering around the problem.

And even the driving gods among us can only hit one brake pedal whereas ESP can brake individual wheels to keep the vehicle stable.

[Jon1967x]

thiscocks said:

Jon1967x said:

Its not condition where fresh snow or gravel would mound up in front of a tyre to aid breaking which is the classical "ABS makes things worse" scenario and a lock up is better - we're still talking about cars with ABS.

No point falling out - rule #1 - brake as hard as you need to. If you feel interested, go out and play in your car somewhere safe and see the effect where less can sometimes be more. Its akin to traction control making you accelerate as quickly as you can - it doesn't, it just stops your wheels spinning if you break traction.

So you think you could stop faster than a modern ABS equiped car on a dry road in the same car without it? Dont think so.

If you read my point it was mainly on low grip surfaces and yes, you can stop quicker than ABS. Next time you are on roads with compacted snow or ice (might be a wait in this weather) stamp on the brake - see how long it takes. Then repeat trying to find the threshold. Its totally up to you if you want to explore the limits of your car with respect to straight line braking somewhere safe or drive in ignorance.