This drives me mad
Discussion
jimbop1 said:
Bradley1500 said:
It should be handled on a case by case basis.
I remember watching a Police, Camera, Action type program where a young women hit a cyclist on an unlit A road. The cyclist was in dark clothing with no reflectives or lights. The women thought she had hit an animal or similar so didn't stop, it was only when her father saw the damage and thought it would be a good idea to report the incident to the Police they found out she had hit and killed the cyclist. A very sad mistake but one which could of been avoided if the cyclist had taken the appropriate precautions to make himself visible!
I remember that as well. Good example!I remember watching a Police, Camera, Action type program where a young women hit a cyclist on an unlit A road. The cyclist was in dark clothing with no reflectives or lights. The women thought she had hit an animal or similar so didn't stop, it was only when her father saw the damage and thought it would be a good idea to report the incident to the Police they found out she had hit and killed the cyclist. A very sad mistake but one which could of been avoided if the cyclist had taken the appropriate precautions to make himself visible!
Surely no one would think that she should have gone to prison purely to deter others?
Laser Sag said:
Interesting little video of Lee's cycle to work in that article, steady state cycling until it is apparent he can arrive alongside the parked car at around the same time as the car coming the other way if he accelerates a bit which he then does. What looks to be a reasonable gap left for him as well. Not saying the driver is right or wrong to go past the parked vehicle but if Lee had eased up a little then there would have been no incident at all but that wouldn't be good for the camera or is that the cynic in me.
There are good and bad drivers and good and bad cyclists, wife was recently hit in the rear while stationary by a good cyclist apparently, well according to him it was the other car drivers around them in 3 lanes of stop start traffic that caused the problem.
I think Lee is why cyclists get a bad name.There are good and bad drivers and good and bad cyclists, wife was recently hit in the rear while stationary by a good cyclist apparently, well according to him it was the other car drivers around them in 3 lanes of stop start traffic that caused the problem.
jimbop1 said:
But I think the point is.. Is prison necessary for making a split second mistake or is it enough that the person will have to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives enough?
As discussed on another thread the car driver may not always be 100% at fault.
But I think it's rare. As discussed on another thread the car driver may not always be 100% at fault.
The OP uses the term 'accident' On another thread I had a lengthy debate with someone over the term 'accident' - not helped by the fact that the other person refused to recognise the term 'negligence'.
These deaths very rarely happen by accident - they *very* rarely happen in a split second, that is very rare indeed. They usually happen through a string of events and I would say almost always were very easily avoided. Normally all that is required is for the driver to drive as he should, as he's obliged to. That is normally all that is required.
To answer some of the OP's points though:
TheInsanity1234 said:
this drives me mad.
1. Don't these people realise that anybody who has killed a cyclist or someone by accident on the roads will have to live with that on their conscience for the rest of their lives?
2. Putting them in prison won't change their driving.
3. Does nobody understand that?
1. In which case you'd think you wouldn't see the madness that goes on out there on the roads.1. Don't these people realise that anybody who has killed a cyclist or someone by accident on the roads will have to live with that on their conscience for the rest of their lives?
2. Putting them in prison won't change their driving.
3. Does nobody understand that?
2. But it may change the driving of others; it may save other pairs of families going through such a torrid time. (Pair as in the families of the victim and driver respectfully).
3. I fully understand that the law does not recognise the sanctity of life enough, but I also know that the law differentiates between victims, with higher sentences going to those who have killed road users who are perceived to be higher up the (non-existent) pecking order.
heebeegeetee said:
I fully understand that the law does not recognise the sanctity of life enough, but I also know that the law differentiates between victims, with higher sentences going to those who have killed road users who are perceived to be higher up the (non-existent) pecking order.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and not just raw statistics. As I have said on another thread, cyclists are more vulnerable - which means that the standards of driving to kill them need not be as low, across the board. Car drivers have extensive safety features to protect them; pedestrians are protected by the fact that they are segregated from vehicular traffic. Cyclists have neither of these; therefore they are more vulnerable to driving that would not have the same consequences for other road users.jimbop1 said:
I think Lee is why cyclists get a bad name.
I would agree in part but in the same way that Lee is to be taken individually so must each case of cyclist injury/ death. Some will be due to poor driving by the motorist and the punishment handed out should be appropriate to level of ineptitude proven.Some will be caused by poor actions of the cyclist and the driver will have already had more than his fair share of penalty by being left wondering if they could have changed the outcome of the incident.
Watching cyclists go up the inside of a lorry which is indicating left at the time leaves you wondering where they left their brain when they mounted their 2 wheeled lorry slaying steed.
when that lorry driver hits the cyclist he can't see should he be sent to jail, loose his job etc as well as having to live with the death or injury he has just inadvertently inflicted.
Edited by Laser Sag on Monday 21st July 18:52
TheInsanity1234 said:
this drives me mad.
Don't these people realise that anybody who has killed a cyclist or someone by accident on the roads will have to live with that on their conscience for the rest of their lives?
Putting them in prison won't change their driving. Removing their licence won't change their driving. Giving them a fine and a few points won't change their driving.
What will change their driving, is the fact they are going to constantly think about the fact they've killed someone. The fact they've destroyed the lives of the person's family. The fact they've made a mistake that quite a few other people will routinely make, but they're unfortunate enough to end up killing someone as a result.
These people are going to need support and consolation, not punishing.
Does nobody understand that?
So what you're effectively saying is that there shouldn't be any punishment for killing someone, because the killer is already going to suffer enough.Don't these people realise that anybody who has killed a cyclist or someone by accident on the roads will have to live with that on their conscience for the rest of their lives?
Putting them in prison won't change their driving. Removing their licence won't change their driving. Giving them a fine and a few points won't change their driving.
What will change their driving, is the fact they are going to constantly think about the fact they've killed someone. The fact they've destroyed the lives of the person's family. The fact they've made a mistake that quite a few other people will routinely make, but they're unfortunate enough to end up killing someone as a result.
These people are going to need support and consolation, not punishing.
Does nobody understand that?
Of course that ignores any right the victim or their family has to any form of visible justice.
The fact is, sad as it is, human decency isn't sufficient to deter people from driving carelessly or dangerously - if it was, there wouldn't be any such incidents. Hopefully the added deterrence of criminal penalties and/or prison does make people take more care.
If you are "unfortunate" enough to kill someone having made a minor mistake, that's tough - you need to live with the consequences of your negligence. As least you are able to do so, unlike the victim.
Prison is used, in part, for retribution and deterrence. it is used to reflect the seriousness of the action. I don't have a particular problem with that. I would have a problem with negligence resulting in death going unpunished in any meaningful way.
CYMR0 said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and not just raw statistics. As I have said on another thread, cyclists are more vulnerable - which means that the standards of driving to kill them need not be as low, across the board. Car drivers have extensive safety features to protect them; pedestrians are protected by the fact that they are segregated from vehicular traffic. Cyclists have neither of these; therefore they are more vulnerable to driving that would not have the same consequences for other road users.
To paraphrase from another source:The causing death by driving sentencing guidelines identify cyclists, amongst others, as vulnerable road users, and state that a driver is expected to take extra care when driving near them. Thus the vulnerability of the victim is no mitigation.
grayze said:
Putting them in prison will change their driving, they wont be driving.
Last cycle accident I saw the immediate aftermath of was a chap who though he'd skirt past the London Bus, you know, a massive great red thing. But he overtook on the right, whilst it was turning right.. He went into the bollards I think. The bus driver was in tears with a black cab driver telling him it wasn't his fault, nothing he could have done.
Should the Bus driver go to jail?
So road cyclists can hold races on the roads.. Enjoy climbing tight twisty hills 2 abreast and swerve into the centre of the lane to dodge a man hole cover.
Yes there a dangerous drivers, but surely some of these cycling 'pastimes' are held in a rather inappropriate and clearly dangerous way?
Commuters I have no problem with, but some of the Sunday morning lycra brigade are a different matter. . By rites, I should be in prison by now if it wasn't for my reactions.. I recently had a roady turn right on me without looking, warning or indication just as I was passing him. He just swerved from the near side to make the move. A half metre difference either way and I'd have put him over my bonnet or under my wheels.
Yes there a dangerous drivers, but surely some of these cycling 'pastimes' are held in a rather inappropriate and clearly dangerous way?
Commuters I have no problem with, but some of the Sunday morning lycra brigade are a different matter. . By rites, I should be in prison by now if it wasn't for my reactions.. I recently had a roady turn right on me without looking, warning or indication just as I was passing him. He just swerved from the near side to make the move. A half metre difference either way and I'd have put him over my bonnet or under my wheels.
Jasandjules said:
grayze said:
Putting them in prison will change their driving, they wont be driving.
Last cycle accident I saw the immediate aftermath of was a chap who though he'd skirt past the London Bus, you know, a massive great red thing. But he overtook on the right, whilst it was turning right.. He went into the bollards I think. The bus driver was in tears with a black cab driver telling him it wasn't his fault, nothing he could have done.
Should the Bus driver go to jail?
jimbop1 said:
Bradley1500 said:
It should be handled on a case by case basis.
I remember watching a Police, Camera, Action type program where a young women hit a cyclist on an unlit A road. The cyclist was in dark clothing with no reflectives or lights. The women thought she had hit an animal or similar so didn't stop, it was only when her father saw the damage and thought it would be a good idea to report the incident to the Police they found out she had hit and killed the cyclist. A very sad mistake but one which could of been avoided if the cyclist had taken the appropriate precautions to make himself visible!
I remember that as well. Good example!I remember watching a Police, Camera, Action type program where a young women hit a cyclist on an unlit A road. The cyclist was in dark clothing with no reflectives or lights. The women thought she had hit an animal or similar so didn't stop, it was only when her father saw the damage and thought it would be a good idea to report the incident to the Police they found out she had hit and killed the cyclist. A very sad mistake but one which could of been avoided if the cyclist had taken the appropriate precautions to make himself visible!
Surely no one would think that she should have gone to prison purely to deter others?
t driving. You really do feel a lot of empathy for people who can't control thier vehicles don't you?Do you drive around with your headlights off at night too? Perhaps the trees, pedestrians and kerbs should be made to wear high-viz too so you can myopically navigate your vehicle on the highways and byways without any responsibility for actually looking where you are going?
Jasandjules said:
Last cycle accident I saw the immediate aftermath of was a chap who though he'd skirt past the London Bus, you know, a massive great red thing. But he overtook on the right, whilst it was turning right.. He went into the bollards I think.
The bus driver was in tears with a black cab driver telling him it wasn't his fault, nothing he could have done.
Should the Bus driver go to jail?
Don't be ridiculous, who is suggesting that drivers who are free from blame should go to jail?The bus driver was in tears with a black cab driver telling him it wasn't his fault, nothing he could have done.
Should the Bus driver go to jail?
The last cycling accident I had was when a bus, you know those massive great red things (it was actually green), tried to overtake me on a blind bend on a narrow road lined with cars on both sides. When he realised there was an oncoming car he cut back into me and punted me off the road and drove off leaving me in a bloody heap on the pavement. Thankfully he didn't squash me against the parked cars and kill me, but in the event he had killed or seriously injured me, do you think he shouldn't go to jail?
Just because someone gets on a bike, it doesn't make them less deserving of justice. If you have issues with cycling in general then insert the word child, or puppy into relevant articles and see how that affects your opinion.
jimbop1 said:
But I think the point is.. Is prison necessary for making a split second mistake or is it enough that the person will have to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives enough?
As discussed on another thread the car driver may not always be 100% at fault.
My apologies for not responding.As discussed on another thread the car driver may not always be 100% at fault.
What he said is more or less my view on the matter.
I also wish to add:
Those drivers who have killed a cyclist while they were driving dangerously and were aware of the possible consequences that their actions might have on vulnerable road users, and after the event, appear to be unaffected by what just happened? They deserve to rot in hell.
What I find annoying are those who, say, go on their morning commute to work, and they're driving along, no problem, then they turn left without checking their blind-spot. A mistake they've made for a few years now, with no consequence, and suddenly the driver has killed a cyclist.
Do they deserve to go to prison?
The fact they're going to have the scenario constantly replayed in their head, the fact they might lose friends and their world might come crumbling down around them because they're unable to cope with the thought they've killed someone by accident. In my eyes, that's punishment enough.
Banning them from driving, sending them to prison, punishing them. Yeah, of course that will change their driving.
But it's going to destroy their life.
Yes, I can see how punishing the driver at fault would serve to ease the pain of the family and friends of the lost one, but you're going to destroy the driver's family. You'll deprive the driver's children of a parent by sending them to prison, all for a simple, innocent mistake?
That, my friends, is what annoys me.
jimbop1 said:
will_ said:
jimbop1 said:
I think Lee is why cyclists get a bad name.
Only by thick, illogical, ignorant, bigoted knuckle draggers.Unconnected to the above, didn't you say that you'd stop posting in cycling threads?
But not with people like you, who time and time again have proven that they are incapable of rational argument, and instead are trolls.
You add nothing. You make PH (and car enthusiasts) look like, well, thick, illogical, ignorant, bigoted knuckle draggers.
You said that you'd stay out of these threads, knowing that you have nothing of value to add. You haven't done that. What else is there to think?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff