HOT HATCHES are amazing now. But.

HOT HATCHES are amazing now. But.

Author
Discussion

motor mad

473 posts

188 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all

My vote would go to the Renaultsport Megane. If I needed back seats - the 265, if I didnt' the R.26.R

aka_kerrly

12,416 posts

209 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
currybum said:
If you assumed that all of the hot hatches that have ever been were on sale now and were competing on a level playing field at inflation adjusted prices. Then the likes of old Peugeots would not get a look in in comparison to even the warm hatches of today.

Something like the 106GTI would be rightly pulled from production for being so far behind the hatches of today that it wouldn’t get a look in. Adjusted for inflation a new 106 Rallye costs the same as a new Fiesta ST, and in every way the fiesta is better.

I got to drive an Escort cosworth recently, It was a meeting your hero moment….but compared to the Focus ST Estate I had at the time is was poor, steering feel and handling was much worst, and it was slower. And the price would be £45k today, and how many people would buy one of those today with the A45 AMG available for £40k…again better in every way.

I think there is a tendency to look back on the cars we drove in the 80’s 90’s with tinted glasses, I remember driving my friends 1.9L 205 GTI when I was 18 and thinking that it was the fastest most amazing car ever…My Wifes 2014 C-Max is faster…

The hot hatches available today are in almost every way better than their predecessors, and with regards to steering feel modern EPAS systems are better for 99% of people.

So the best hot hatches of all time …
Budget – Fiesta ST Mountune
Family – Golf GTI
Extreme - A45 AMG
GOOD POST, I completely agree.

Have some people forgotten what a hot hatch is meant to be, clue, it is not a race car.

It is a car that can take 5 adults with some luggage and do so whilst providing far more entertainment/performance than a typical family car at a price that is still less than the majority of dedicated sports cars whilst offering broadly similar performance.

By broadly the same I mean with an average driver on a typical A road, I am not on about setting Nurburgring times although that said the newest range of hot hatches like the Focus RS, Leon 280, Golf GTI are capable of lap times in line with supercars from a decade or two ago!

For me I do love my 80s hot hatches especially mk2 golfs 16v of which I have had a number of standard and modified examples and expect to always own at least one.

Of the more recent hot hatches from the last decade the mk5 Golf GTI, Renault R26 and JDM civic Type R are in a league of their own but I struggle to pick a favourite!! Oh and I can't overlook a R53 Mini Cooper S purely for the supercharger!

It's impossible to pick just 1!!!!

irish boy

3,523 posts

235 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
The best hot hatch of today (or October rather when deliveries start) is the megane 275 trophy with the updated dampers and tyres. For driving none of the others will come close.

AJB88

12,268 posts

170 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
irish boy said:
The best hot hatch of today (or October rather when deliveries start) is the megane 275 trophy with the updated dampers and tyres. For driving none of the others will come close.

Cupra 280 with uprated suspension and rear stripped out

thiscocks

3,127 posts

194 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
currybum said:
Something like the 106GTI would be rightly pulled from production for being so far behind the hatches of today that it wouldn’t get a look in. Adjusted for inflation a new 106 Rallye costs the same as a new Fiesta ST, and in every way the fiesta is better.
Depends how you define 'better'. Personally I think the 106 rallye looks much better and is in my opinion more fun to drive. Dont get me wrong the ST is still a good car but after driving a S1 Rallye pretty much any modern hatch feels pretty diluted in the driving department.

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
currybum said:
If you assumed that all of the hot hatches that have ever been were on sale now and were competing on a level playing field at inflation adjusted prices. Then the likes of old Peugeots would not get a look in in comparison to even the warm hatches of today.

Something like the 106GTI would be rightly pulled from production for being so far behind the hatches of today that it wouldn’t get a look in. Adjusted for inflation a new 106 Rallye costs the same as a new Fiesta ST, and in every way the fiesta is better.

I got to drive an Escort cosworth recently, It was a meeting your hero moment….but compared to the Focus ST Estate I had at the time is was poor, steering feel and handling was much worst, and it was slower. And the price would be £45k today, and how many people would buy one of those today with the A45 AMG available for £40k…again better in every way.

I think there is a tendency to look back on the cars we drove in the 80’s 90’s with tinted glasses, I remember driving my friends 1.9L 205 GTI when I was 18 and thinking that it was the fastest most amazing car ever…My Wifes 2014 C-Max is faster…

The hot hatches available today are in almost every way better than their predecessors, and with regards to steering feel modern EPAS systems are better for 99% of people.

So the best hot hatches of all time …
Budget – Fiesta ST Mountune
Family – Golf GTI
Extreme - A45 AMG
I don't agree with your choices, but do agree with your argument.

People do need to take the rose-tinted glasses off. The 18 year old me has a very different set of priorities against the 28 year old me. As such, the likes of a 106 Rallye may be a hoot to drive fast, but for many other reasons it is a hateful little thing.

The most fun hot hatch that offers the most of everything is the Clio 172/182 in my eyes. It is quick, cheap to run, entertaining, comfortable and has modern toys. I would still happily drive one today.

viggyp

1,917 posts

134 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Personally, when I think of Hot Hatches, apart from the usual 80's/90's ones in my head I've always had a soft spot for the Fiat Strada Abarth 130 TC and Uno Turbo's.

Uno Turbo's had great engines and quite good handling, they just had too much body roll.

The Strada was a great little motor. 130bhp & 136lb ft. Loved being revved despite it being a long stroke engine and the torque was fantastic as it pulled from idle to 6300 rpm. this was all down to the long stroke, twin carbs and twin cams, big valve head and high(ish) lift cams as standard. One of the strongest 4 cylinder lumps made.

The one I had had great brakes and worked when they were really needed, the handling was great despite it having a short wheelbase and long suspension travel..........but it was the noise which it made. I miss it.

billy939

375 posts

143 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
currybum said:
thiscocks said:
Depends how you define 'better'. Personally I think the 106 rallye looks much better and is in my opinion more fun to drive. Dont get me wrong the ST is still a good car but after driving a S1 Rallye pretty much any modern hatch feels pretty diluted in the driving department.
And Driving a 2-stroke go-kart makes the Rallye feel heavy and diluted in the driving department, as you cant even see the wheels...you cant feel the engine getting hotter and you have a wind screen that shields you from the fun of all that wind coming at you.

The 106 as a base car was designed with one thing in mind and that was to make it cheap, and once they have made it cheap to cost reduce it even more.

The result was an unrefined, noisy vehicle which felt as if you were close to the road…bacause you were only a few microns of tinfoil away! The result of the Rallye was good in a fun experience kind of way, but is was my no means a good car, and by modern standards it is far from even being acceptable.

If you drive the Fiesta ST and are not having fun you have either not driven one or your not driving it properly.


I've not driven a Rallye, but I owned a 106 Gti and would pick it over the ST for fun every time.

They were fairly poorly equipped but they were 130bhp/tonne and at release were quicker than all their rivals and much quicker than the Golf Gti of the time and the Mk5 Fiesta Zetec-S.

A modern Fiesta ST is only 156bhp/tonne so it is not all that quicker after 15-20 years really.

It all depends on what you judge to be a 'good car'. Undoubtedly the latest ST is a very good car.
But with giant killing performance(in hot hatch terms) and handling that is better than pretty much any car I've driven I would say the 106 Gti is not just good but excellent.

The beauty of this is that everyone has a different opinion of what a hot hatch should be. I think a few areas covered should be:
- Engine that is verging on too powerful for its size.
- The capability of taking 4/5 people on short journeys in a reasonable amount of comfort.
- Handling that would inspire confidence to try and take on more powerful sports cars in the bends.
- Looks that verge on being a bit over the top, but not quite.

For me the Fiesta ST, 106 Gti, Clio 182, Civic Type R, Mini Cooper S, etc. All of these cover these bases.




CorvetteConvert

Original Poster:

7,897 posts

213 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Back, been away in the south of France.
For me, the best hot hatches of all time are firstly, the Mercedes A45AMG. Quickly remaps, (preferably with a sports exhaust), to 414 bhp and can put every last bhp into the road surface, unlike many HHs. Fantastic car with practicality, 5 doors, 40 mpg potential, yet the same 0-100 as a Porsche Carrera 3.8 as standard.
54 extra bhp takes less than an hour and £500.
Next is the Golf R. A do everything car with 300 bhp. It has the lot.
3rd is the Audi RS3. I drove one lightly fettled to 420 bhp and the sound and go of that thing rocked.

I used to have stuff like the 205 GTI 1.9, Renault 5 GT Turbo and Escort Cosworth, great back then, but the question said for now, not then, they are like fossils in so many ways. I recently drove a minter Escort Cossy with the laggy 227 bhp engine and it was just so poor in every way, compared to the new and amazing Merc. Supercar real world performance for BMW repmobile money.


Matt UK

17,649 posts

199 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
billy939 said:
Crafty_ said:
Matt UK said:
My choice will no doubt be controversial... But for me a hot hatch needs to be a jack of all trades, and so by definition is a master of none.

It is a one car that does it all so needs to balance fun handling, long journeys, feel, refinement, safety, family life, visual appeal, price, power, mpg, insurance, running costs and the ability to be parked anywhere etc etc.

Therefore my vote goes to the mk5 VW Golf GTI.
mk5 Gti isn't a hot hatch imho, even for its time it needs another 50hp.

It pales to its contemporaries.
This ^^ A 106 Gti would stay with a Mk5 Golf Gti in nearly all performance areas with 80bhp less and being 5-6 years older.
We'll have to agree to disagree. A lot of the motoring press still seem to hold up the Golf GTi as the benchmark to which others are compared?

Like I say. jack of all trades, and so by definition is a master of none. There are faster hot hatches, doesn't make them better hot hatches.

Pixelpeep7r

8,600 posts

141 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Matt UK said:
There are faster hot hatches, doesn't make them better hot hatches.
That would depend on the definition of 'better' for this thread really wouldn't it.

thiscocks

3,127 posts

194 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
currybum said:
thiscocks said:
Depends how you define 'better'. Personally I think the 106 rallye looks much better and is in my opinion more fun to drive. Dont get me wrong the ST is still a good car but after driving a S1 Rallye pretty much any modern hatch feels pretty diluted in the driving department.
And Driving a 2-stroke go-kart makes the Rallye feel heavy and diluted in the driving department, as you cant even see the wheels...you cant feel the engine getting hotter and you have a wind screen that shields you from the fun of all that wind coming at you.

The 106 as a base car was designed with one thing in mind and that was to make it cheap, and once they have made it cheap to cost reduce it even more.

The result was an unrefined, noisy vehicle which felt as if you were close to the road…bacause you were only a few microns of tinfoil away! The result of the Rallye was good in a fun experience kind of way, but is was my no means a good car, and by modern standards it is far from even being acceptable.

If you drive the Fiesta ST and are not having fun you have either not driven one or your not driving it properly.


A go-kart isn't a hatchback. The Rallye was also designed with actual competition in mind and like most cars which are fun to drive the noise and lack of pointless add-on st most people want in cars these days just make it even better for that.

I would say it is a good car as it excels at what it sets out to do. No its not as comfortable or arguably as good an all-round car as an ST but I guess it just depends what you want in a hot hatch. For me comfort and a fancy looking dash are right at the bottom of the list.

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Safe to say there is a difference of opinion of what makes a hot hatch.

I personally see the Mk1 Golf GTI as the first of its kind, and it's the all-round ability that appeals. Therefore, in my mind, the 106 Rallye isn't in the mix.

Pixelpeep7r

8,600 posts

141 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
It needs to be graded on a points system

0-60 time
bhp
weight
mpg
what wheel drive
handling
practicality
reliability
fun
and
price

someone needs to make a kick ass spreadsheet with some drop downs for grading - not sure how you could quantify what points for 'fun' but for facts you it would be easy..

Example -

what wheel drive

FWD - 1 point
RWD - 3 points
AWD - 5 points

Patrick Bateman

12,143 posts

173 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Different points for different driven wheels? What on earth.

aka_kerrly

12,416 posts

209 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Matt UK said:
We'll have to agree to disagree. A lot of the motoring press still seem to hold up the Golf GTi as the benchmark to which others are compared?

Like I say. jack of all trades, and so by definition is a master of none. There are faster hot hatches, doesn't make them better hot hatches.
Quite, it is only some PH members who can apparently be experts on all hot hatches but never seem to be able to accept that the Golf GTI is 9/10 rated as the best ALL ROUND HOT HATCH going, not the fastest in a straight line, not always the fastest around "the Ring", not having as big a boot as a focus estate or the leg room of a A6 but the one that balances the needs of most situations whilst providing more driving pleasure than the average car.

Also worth mentioning that it gets silly when comparing the 106GTI which is not in the same class as Golfs when it comes to SIZE & SPACE. Personally I view 106s/saxos as a whole class size below that is aimed at mostly single or young couples without kids, where as I associate golfs/Focus/Civic size hot hatches as being suitable to take you through life's changes from young couple to small families without having to make sacrifices.


Eighteeteewhy

7,259 posts

167 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Pixelpeep7r said:
It needs to be graded on a points system

0-60 time
bhp
weight
mpg
what wheel drive
handling
practicality
reliability
fun
and
price

someone needs to make a kick ass spreadsheet with some drop downs for grading - not sure how you could quantify what points for 'fun' but for facts you it would be easy..

Example -

what wheel drive

FWD - 1 point
RWD - 3 points
AWD - 5 points
Think you may have an argument as to what characteristics get what points. Not sure I would give AWD more points than RWD or, in a hot hatch FWD. I am a fan of old school stuff, the reason being you can completely exploit them on the road. And the lack of safety etc means they are light and agile in a way that a modern cannot be.

The 106 is a case in point - significantly lighter than a new Fiesta and whilst the Ford would drive away from the Pug, it is the oversteering, non power assisted 106 that would get my vote every single time. I drive quickly on the road but am not into having to get into licence losing speeds or taking too many liberties to get my kicks.

Having a car that you really need to drive is what keeps me going and what I look for in a car and IMO older machines provide this key characteristic. Not sure it is rose tinted specs at all - I drive quite a few modern cars and have owned and enjoyed many older cars too.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
Think you may have an argument as to what characteristics get what points. Not sure I would give AWD more points than RWD or, in a hot hatch FWD. I am a fan of old school stuff, the reason being you can completely exploit them on the road. And the lack of safety etc means they are light and agile in a way that a modern cannot be.

The 106 is a case in point - significantly lighter than a new Fiesta and whilst the Ford would drive away from the Pug, it is the oversteering, non power assisted 106 that would get my vote every single time. I drive quickly on the road but am not into having to get into licence losing speeds or taking too many liberties to get my kicks.

Having a car that you really need to drive is what keeps me going and what I look for in a car and IMO older machines provide this key characteristic. Not sure it is rose tinted specs at all - I drive quite a few modern cars and have owned and enjoyed many older cars too.
There's a slight conflict in the original question to my mind.

CorvetteConvert said:
Which is the best hot hatch of all time. Not for it's day, for now.
As in this week.

Not at the Nurburgring on melty tyres, for the road (99%) and a very rare track day for fun.

Performance is what matters. Speed. Brakes. Feeling of sheer power.

Which car kicks ass in your view?
On the one hand 'Performance is what matters. Speed. Brakes' - you'll be wanting something new like the A45 AMG for that?

'Track day for fun. Feeling of sheer power' - something older and with no driver aids might be better?

Tickle

4,879 posts

203 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Eighteeteewhy said:
That is an amazing hatch (and probably the biggest actual hatch of of any car!)

For me it would be the Clio Trophy for driving fun seeing as a DC2 is a coupé. Owned both, not much in it between which I would pick for a Sunday morning hoon.

Never had a drive of a EK9 civic, only a short passenger blast. Maybe someone could shed some light on an EK9 comparison to other hatches? I would imagine they are pretty raw and and driver focused as per the DC2.

Personally I prefer the older school of hatches, N/A, light, steering feel, not much driver assistance if any.

... although a go in the S4 above may sway me to forced induction!