RE: Audi RS5 TDI: Driven
Discussion
fatboy b said:
Agreed. While I don't like your choice of transport, some of these petrol poofters need to spend some time in a modern diesel. 
I traded in my relatively modern turbo diesel (leon FR CR DSG 170) for a modern turbo petrol (Fiesta ST). The only thing the diesel is better for is cruising, and most of that advantage came from the dsg box.SInce owning it my fiesta is averaging 3 mpg less than the leon did long term, they both got driven on the same commute in the same manner. The Fiestas torque to weight ratio is only a smidge behind the Leon's but it is more progressive. I'd only choose the diesel if I was doing a 100 miles plus, in one stint.
neil1jnr said:
fatboy b said:
Agreed. While I don't like your choice of transport, some of these petrol poofters need to spend some time in a modern diesel.
I traded in my relatively modern turbo diesel (leon FR CR DSG 170) for a modern turbo petrol (Fiesta ST). The only thing the diesel is better for is cruising, and most of that advantage came from the dsg box.SInce owning it my fiesta is averaging 3 mpg less than the leon did long term, they both got driven on the same commute in the same manner. The Fiestas torque to weight ratio is only a smidge behind the Leon's but it is more progressive. I'd only choose the diesel if I was doing a 100 miles plus, in one stint.
If you put the Focus 1.6T fuel economy against the new Leon FR184 there would be a huge difference.
HonestJohn reckon 40-45 for the Focus. I used to drive a Mapped 140DSG Leon and averaged over 47mpg giving it a good boot full most the time. Friend has a A3 Sportback 150 with a DTUK box and easily averages over 60mpg. Seen 70mpg on a really long steady run.
Edited by dukebox9reg on Wednesday 23 July 15:53
dukebox9reg said:
80-90% of the same B road steer as the petrol but can romp down the motorway at 'respectable' speeds and still get 40mpg rather than 20mpg.
exactly what i am trying to say, by choosing MPG as a big part of your criteria you end up with 80-90%.If it's the performance model i don't want 80-90%.
i want 100%.
an exciting car is one where MPG doesn't enter into the conversation.
Prawnboy said:
exactly what i am trying to say, by choosing MPG as a big part of your criteria you end up with 80-90%.
If it's the performance model i don't want 80-90%.
i want 100%.
an exciting car is one where MPG doesn't enter into the conversation.
100% of what? You are talking about saloons and estates here; in these types of cars, why wouldn't MPG would't play a role? Everything else is already compromised in favor of usability.If it's the performance model i don't want 80-90%.
i want 100%.
an exciting car is one where MPG doesn't enter into the conversation.
scherzkeks said:
100% of what? You are talking about saloons and estates here; in these types of cars, why wouldn't MPG would't play a role? Everything else is already compromised in favor of usability.
well everything outside of a race car is compromised. i really don't know how to make myself any clearer.
i will try one more time.
MPG as a subject is Dull, derv cars are better than there petrol counterparts in one way only MPG, therefore they are duller than there petrol counterparts.
I know that modern derv engines are amazing in many ways but the equivalent petrol will be more refined & more powerful but be less economic.
i understand why people want them, i don't understand why people dont admit they are not as good, except when it comes to mpg.
dukebox9reg said:
If you take in-gear acceleration
325d 50-70 in 5th 5.1, 50-90 through gears 8.3
328i 50-70 in 5th 6.2, 50-90 Through gears 7.6
So yes down on power but not performance.
Why 5th? What a random gear to pick. If I'm accelerating from 50 I'm either in 2nd or 3rd because I want to go fast or I'm in top gear because I don't care.325d 50-70 in 5th 5.1, 50-90 through gears 8.3
328i 50-70 in 5th 6.2, 50-90 Through gears 7.6
So yes down on power but not performance.
Diesels are fast if you pick the best gear for the diesel and then claim this is a real world test.
Prawnboy said:
well everything outside of a race car is compromised.
i really don't know how to make myself any clearer.
i will try one more time.
MPG as a subject is Dull, derv cars are better than there petrol counterparts in one way only MPG, therefore they are duller than there petrol counterparts.
I know that modern derv engines are amazing in many ways but the equivalent petrol will be more refined & more powerful but be less economic.
i understand why people want them, i don't understand why people dont admit they are not as good, except when it comes to mpg.
The point of the RS5 TDI concept is to show that diesels aren't just about MPG, and that times are changing. If you could have increased MPG as well as performance over a petrol, why would you not take it? Diesel is being used in top race applications, so it's logical to develop it further at the pointy end of the sport and then begin to implement it in road cars over time. i really don't know how to make myself any clearer.
i will try one more time.
MPG as a subject is Dull, derv cars are better than there petrol counterparts in one way only MPG, therefore they are duller than there petrol counterparts.
I know that modern derv engines are amazing in many ways but the equivalent petrol will be more refined & more powerful but be less economic.
i understand why people want them, i don't understand why people dont admit they are not as good, except when it comes to mpg.
scherzkeks said:
Prawnboy said:
well everything outside of a race car is compromised.
i really don't know how to make myself any clearer.
i will try one more time.
MPG as a subject is Dull, derv cars are better than there petrol counterparts in one way only MPG, therefore they are duller than there petrol counterparts.
I know that modern derv engines are amazing in many ways but the equivalent petrol will be more refined & more powerful but be less economic.
i understand why people want them, i don't understand why people dont admit they are not as good, except when it comes to mpg.
The point of the RS5 TDI concept is to show that diesels aren't just about MPG, and that times are changing. If you could have increased MPG as well as performance over a petrol, why would you not take it? Diesel is being used in top race applications, so it's logical to develop it further at the pointy end of the sport and then begin to implement it in road cars over time. i really don't know how to make myself any clearer.
i will try one more time.
MPG as a subject is Dull, derv cars are better than there petrol counterparts in one way only MPG, therefore they are duller than there petrol counterparts.
I know that modern derv engines are amazing in many ways but the equivalent petrol will be more refined & more powerful but be less economic.
i understand why people want them, i don't understand why people dont admit they are not as good, except when it comes to mpg.
Because diesel burns rather than explodes, it can never deliver those desirable characteristics. The combustion just takes too long for it. For the drives, petrol will always be the fuel of choice.
Some of the straight line heroes will go on about torque but it's power (i.e a combination of revs and torque) at the wheels that counts, for example circa 5200 lb/ft of torque at 1rpm gives about 1bhp - That would make for one slow car!
Edited by FrankUnderwood on Wednesday 23 July 19:44
alock said:
dukebox9reg said:
If you take in-gear acceleration
325d 50-70 in 5th 5.1, 50-90 through gears 8.3
328i 50-70 in 5th 6.2, 50-90 Through gears 7.6
So yes down on power but not performance.
Why 5th? What a random gear to pick. If I'm accelerating from 50 I'm either in 2nd or 3rd because I want to go fast or I'm in top gear because I don't care.325d 50-70 in 5th 5.1, 50-90 through gears 8.3
328i 50-70 in 5th 6.2, 50-90 Through gears 7.6
So yes down on power but not performance.
Diesels are fast if you pick the best gear for the diesel and then claim this is a real world test.
GreenArrow said:
alock said:
dukebox9reg said:
If you take in-gear acceleration
325d 50-70 in 5th 5.1, 50-90 through gears 8.3
328i 50-70 in 5th 6.2, 50-90 Through gears 7.6
So yes down on power but not performance.
Why 5th? What a random gear to pick. If I'm accelerating from 50 I'm either in 2nd or 3rd because I want to go fast or I'm in top gear because I don't care.325d 50-70 in 5th 5.1, 50-90 through gears 8.3
328i 50-70 in 5th 6.2, 50-90 Through gears 7.6
So yes down on power but not performance.
Diesels are fast if you pick the best gear for the diesel and then claim this is a real world test.
The problem for petrols is you can only hit max power in 1st and 2nd legally in UK roads.
A question for those who keep banging on about you need revs and torque - well what about all electric cars they have full torque from zero revs to 5,000 revs so a massive area under the curve.
What about 0-100mph in 11 seconds, that's fast so is 4.6seconds to 62mph that is F30 335d standard performance. Really quick great handling 5,500 rpm very petrol like urgency and delivery (also most petrols these days are turbo and have traditional TDI delivery and similar rev ranges)
A question for those who keep banging on about you need revs and torque - well what about all electric cars they have full torque from zero revs to 5,000 revs so a massive area under the curve.
What about 0-100mph in 11 seconds, that's fast so is 4.6seconds to 62mph that is F30 335d standard performance. Really quick great handling 5,500 rpm very petrol like urgency and delivery (also most petrols these days are turbo and have traditional TDI delivery and similar rev ranges)
I disagree. Even modern turbocharged petrols achieved 6k plus. That's close to double the useable rev range that a diesel has when you remember to subtract the first 1000rpm the engine idles close to. Diesels are seriously sluggish beyond 4000rpm almost without exception. You can paint the red mark at 5k if you wish but that's just the point where the end falls to bits. The action is long gone by then. Petrol engines still pull hard up to their redline.
I'm really not sure why people are arguing about this.
The powerplant ultimately just turns the wheels.
Enthusiasts often want a large torque applied to the wheels (the crank torque is fairly irrelevant), to enable rapid acceleration. If necessary, a gearbox is used to allow the powerplant to work in its most effective rotational speed range.
Different powerplant types are available, with different power delivery characteristics, som e of which may appeal to certain people more than others.
For most people, decent performance with relatively low fuel consumption makes sense and are a consideration. Considerations of pollution and/or life-time costs probably less so.
Driving a V8 that does less than 20mpg (on a good day) 1000s of miles every year isn't that appealing to many people.
The powerplant ultimately just turns the wheels.
Enthusiasts often want a large torque applied to the wheels (the crank torque is fairly irrelevant), to enable rapid acceleration. If necessary, a gearbox is used to allow the powerplant to work in its most effective rotational speed range.
Different powerplant types are available, with different power delivery characteristics, som e of which may appeal to certain people more than others.
For most people, decent performance with relatively low fuel consumption makes sense and are a consideration. Considerations of pollution and/or life-time costs probably less so.
Driving a V8 that does less than 20mpg (on a good day) 1000s of miles every year isn't that appealing to many people.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 23 July 22:02
jamieduff1981 said:
I disagree. Even modern turbocharged petrols achieved 6k plus. That's close to double the useable rev range that a diesel has when you remember to subtract the first 1000rpm the engine idles close to. Diesels are seriously sluggish beyond 4000rpm almost without exception. You can paint the red mark at 5k if you wish but that's just the point where the end falls to bits. The action is long gone by then. Petrol engines still pull hard up to their redline.
We petrols too have idle which is similar to a diesel so of a petrol has a red line at 6k it only has 5k revsThe 335d has max power at 4,800 rpm get revs to 5,500 rpm. The Focus ST has max power at 5,500 rpm max revs 6,500rpm, Foat Coupe 20vturbo max power at 5,500 rpm max revs 7,000, Leon Cupra Petrol 1.8T max power 5.2k revs max revs 6,250rpm.
In the Focus there was little point reving it beyond max power.
All the V8 muscle cars had max revs 4,000 rpm.
The current Rolls Royce has max revs 4,500 rpm from its 6.75ltr v8 - peak power notably lower.
I totally don't understand the point you are attempting to make. (Have you driven the F30 335d?)
MC Bodge said:
I'm really not sure why people are arguing about this.
The powerplant ultimately just turns the wheels.
Enthusiasts often want a large torque applied to the wheels to enable acceleration. If necessary, a gearbox is used to allow the powerplant to work in its most effective rotational speed range.
Different powerplant types are available, with different power delivery characteristics.
For most people, decent performance with relatively low fuel consumption makes sense and are a consideration. Considerations of pollution and/or life-time costs probably less so.
Driving a V8 that does less than 20mpg (on a good day) 1000s of miles every year isn't that appealing to many people.
But this is PH not salesrepderv.com. Who cares for the most, the most don't by Audi RS's, the most fit into your above example.The powerplant ultimately just turns the wheels.
Enthusiasts often want a large torque applied to the wheels to enable acceleration. If necessary, a gearbox is used to allow the powerplant to work in its most effective rotational speed range.
Different powerplant types are available, with different power delivery characteristics.
For most people, decent performance with relatively low fuel consumption makes sense and are a consideration. Considerations of pollution and/or life-time costs probably less so.
Driving a V8 that does less than 20mpg (on a good day) 1000s of miles every year isn't that appealing to many people.
I can't believe we are now in an age where people almost prefer diesels over petrol. Very sad times indeed.
vz-r_dave said:
But this is PH not salesrepderv.com. Who cares for the most, the most don't by Audi RS's, the most fit into your above example.
I can't believe we are now in an age where people almost prefer diesels over petrol. Very sad times indeed.
There is nothing wrong with having a preference for one power source to another - heck Damon Hill drives a Renault Espasce why as you cannot drive quickly on the UK roads everything is a compromise hence he opted for such a comfy vehicle keeping fun vehicles for the track.
I can't believe we are now in an age where people almost prefer diesels over petrol. Very sad times indeed.
There is nothing wrong with having a preference for one power source to another - heck Damon Hill drives a Renault Espasce why as you cannot drive quickly on the UK roads everything is a compromise hence he opted for such a comfy vehicle keeping fun vehicles for the track.
scherzkeks said:
Meanwhile, back in reality, diesels are now used (quite successfully) in actual Rennsport.
Only because the rules are now all about "efficiency" and give them an advantage (LMP1 isn't what it used to be). Despite that though, the petrol/electric cars in LMP1-H are still faster. As I've already said, the Audis were the dullest cars on track at Le Mans and Porsche & Toyota's reliability issues robbed us of a spectacular finale to the race. Hopefully next year will be different as TBH the Audi dominance at Le Mans is as tiresome as the 'Schumacher procession' that was F1 in the early 2000s. Thankfuly, the GT classes are much more lively.Diesel engines really are the antithesis of what most petrolheads love in a "sporty" car and ARE just about economy, no matter how much you try to spin it. - If globally, petrol was at Dubai prices, no-one would give a toss about diesel in anything with sporting pretensions.
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