RE: Audi RS5 TDI: Driven

[jamieduff1981]

MC Bodge said:

You are quite entitled to drive a petrol V8. Your mpg isn't bad.

Most people do just drive on traffic-clogged roads though. There is a market for a flash, fast diesel which is why manufacturers make them.

They may not be the perfect solution for all enthusiasts, but I'm not sure why some people care so much about their existence.

jamieduff1981 said:

- if you can't afford to tax it, you can't afford the depreciation

I was thinking more about company car
Tax based on EU test frigging.

It's still a significant difference in fuel costs too and a lot of people do drive many miles per year.

I may be wrong but I can't imagine the RS5 TDI stealing many company car sales from the 2.0 TDI versions.

[scherzkeks]

Clivey said:

As I've already said, the Audis were the dullest cars on track at Le Mans a.

You are so bitter. It's just a car company.

[Welshbeef]

FrankUnderwood said:

Electric cars are completely different, we're on about engines with reciprocating pistons and combustible fuel. Another reason diesels aren't as rev happy as petrols is because the pistons, conrods and block are all much heavier to cope with the huge pressures needed for diesel combustion.

If you could afford to run a 335i, you would take it over the 35d for driving thrills. As a daily driver, I could understand the diesel a bit more however a petrol is always smoother so again aside from cost the diesel is inferior.

Petrol pressures have increased dramatically and are not far off diesel - hence the E90 330i 272bhp injector failures the gen 1 if you like.

Petrols are now getting more and more TDI like and increased revs isn't on the cards instead peak power is generally at the 5k rev point.

Why would you take a lower powered and slower 335i over a 335d some might but most wouldn't (hence the fact most are 335d's not I's even with a notable purchase price difference.


Dos your first statement mean that rotary engines are also excluded it is a mode of propulsion just like electric diesel petrol LPG.

[Clivey]

scherzkeks said:

You are so bitter. It's just a car company.

Honestly, you misunderstand the reasons behind my comments. I actually like some of their models and whilst the R18 was the dullest car to watch from an action/spectating point of view, it's IMO the best looking car in it's class (if that makes sense).

If my work necessitated doing lots of miles, one of the current 3.0TDIs would be ideal. It's just that anyone under the illusion that it's a suitable powerplant for an M3 rival is missing the point (unless they really enjoy pushing a diesel automatic to it's limits ).

[Prawnboy]

Welshbeef said:

Petrols are now getting more and more TDI like and increased revs isn't on the cards instead peak power is generally at the 5k rev point.

what? the 335i peak power is at 5800 the derv at 4200

Welshbeef said:

Why would you take a lower powered and slower 335i over a 335d some might but most wouldn't (hence the fact most are 335d's not I's even with a notable purchase price difference.

again....what? the 335i is 20% more powerfull & quicker. thems is just facts!

most are derv because people don't want to spend extra on fuel.

if offered both cars for free with free fuel for a year everyone except the most contrary derv missionary would take the 335i. Because it's better.

[Welshbeef]

Prawnboy said:

Welshbeef said:

Petrols are now getting more and more TDI like and increased revs isn't on the cards instead peak power is generally at the 5k rev point.

what? the 335i peak power is at 5800 the derv at 4200

Welshbeef said:

Why would you take a lower powered and slower 335i over a 335d some might but most wouldn't (hence the fact most are 335d's not I's even with a notable purchase price difference.

again....what? the 335i is 20% more powerfull & quicker. thems is just facts!

most are derv because people don't want to spend extra on fuel.

if offered both cars for free with free fuel for a year everyone except the most contrary derv missionary would take the 335i. Because it's better.

What 335d peak power is 4,800 not 4,200.

The 335d is 313bhp the 335i is 306bhp

The 335d is 4.6seconds to 62 the 335i 5.2 seconds.


Its certainly better sound than the 335d but this 335d really has a good noise when pressing on (otherwise silent) in cabin.





Your talking about the E90 3 series the game has moved on - maybe if you test these your eyes will be opened.




Also Alpina have the D3 which has over 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62 and 175mph and 50mpg combined ---- fast fun.

[TB Rich]

Welshbeef said:

What 335d peak power is 4,800 not 4,200.

The 335d is 313bhp the 335i is 306bhp

The 335d is 4.6seconds to 62 the 335i 5.2 seconds.


Its certainly better sound than the 335d but this 335d really has a good noise when pressing on (otherwise silent) in cabin.





Your talking about the E90 3 series the game has moved on - maybe if you test these your eyes will be opened.




Also Alpina have the D3 which has over 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62 and 175mph and 50mpg combined ---- fast fun.

335d is xDrive only is it not, Vs rwd of the 335i...

0-60 is a pointless measurement at the best of times, even more so when you're comparing 4wd vs rwd - of course it'll get of the line quicker but it doesn't really tell us chuff all else other than traction and gearing which plays an important part too.

What about the 0-100mph times? I bet the 335i will have clawed much if not all of the deficit back?

tbh when cars are so close in real world performance it comes down to sound and delivery, you will always get used to a cars power and crave more so a nice sounding and clean to rev car even if slower would be my pick everyday. Hell I chose my 200 over a 123d even though quite a bit slower and thirstier, petrol is much more enjoyable than diesel.

[Clivey]

mutsy88 said:

I think someone nailed this earlier on but I cant find the quote - the problem seems to be that they have called it an RS model not that they have made a fast diesel.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

mutsy88 said:

This is just a diesel halo model, and if you ignore the emotional issue of the nomenclature then it makes a lot of sense.

A powerful diesel model does make sense but for a significant number of us, it will never have the "halo" effect of, say, the previous petrol RS2, RS4 etc.

mutsy88 said:

If you want a revvy, 'track focused' car (as much as a 4wd family saloon can be) for pure driving pleasure and are not worried about fuel bills as you either don't drive far or are very wealthy - then Audi will quite happily sell you the petrol RS.

Whilst I'm not suggesting that petrol 'performance' models will disappear any time soon, the proliferation of diesels (due to fuel prices, taxation, efficiency etc.) does mean that we are starting to see a reduction in the choices available to us in terms of petrol cars. If manufacturers build these so-called "diesel halo" models and they sell better than the petrols, the latter will eventually go the same way as the manual gearbox.

mutsy88 said:

I think it depends on your personal needs, but most people actually drive their cars on boring traffic filled roads 95% of the time and therefore need a compromise. Even the petrol RS is a compromise as if all you really cared about was a pure driving experience then you would probably get something else, but in reality people want aircon, satnav, back seats etc. etc.

Again, agreed...but there's compromise and there's compromise. I just think that once you've got to the stage of "needing" a diesel, it's never going to match the driving experience of what's gone before (in the context of RS, M, AMG etc. cars). As you say, if it were branded differently, it wouldn't grate so much.

mutsy88 said:

Big petrols are great for some people but fast diesels fit with other peoples requirements perfectly as well, and cars like the BMW 640D and 335D's are great day to day cars. A RS5TDI is just a natural extension of car manufacturers continual niche filling, making sure they have a car that meets every set of personal requirements they can imagine.

I'm still waiting for those flying ones that were predicted back in the 50's and 60's (not that I was around then).

[Welshbeef]

TB Rich said:

Welshbeef said:

What 335d peak power is 4,800 not 4,200.

The 335d is 313bhp the 335i is 306bhp

The 335d is 4.6seconds to 62 the 335i 5.2 seconds.


Its certainly better sound than the 335d but this 335d really has a good noise when pressing on (otherwise silent) in cabin.





Your talking about the E90 3 series the game has moved on - maybe if you test these your eyes will be opened.




Also Alpina have the D3 which has over 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62 and 175mph and 50mpg combined ---- fast fun.

335d is xDrive only is it not, Vs rwd of the 335i...

0-60 is a pointless measurement at the best of times, even more so when you're comparing 4wd vs rwd - of course it'll get of the line quicker but it doesn't really tell us chuff all else other than traction and gearing which plays an important part too.

What about the 0-100mph times? I bet the 335i will have clawed much if not all of the deficit back?

tbh when cars are so close in real world performance it comes down to sound and delivery, you will always get used to a cars power and crave more so a nice sounding and clean to rev car even if slower would be my pick everyday. Hell I chose my 200 over a 123d even though quite a bit slower and thirstier, petrol is much more enjoyable than diesel.

Well I'm just responding to your statement that the 335i is quicker and more powerful when it is not - so this means the sole reason for choosing the 335i over a 335d is if you prefer rwd v 4x4 and noise in every other aspect its either identical or superior and faster than the petrol.

Heck if you look at the 330d rwd v Xdrive its barely 0.3/0.4 seconds quicker so on that logic the rwd 335d if it existed wild still be quicker (as you'd expect it has more bhp per tonne than the 335i and more absolute power so it will always be quicker


Point is its great that engineers have closed the gap so much that you can genuinely chose a diesel and beat /match or just come short v the good petrol we have come a very long way since Sierra 2.3D or the peaky 1.9 PD TDI VW units which were out of puff by 3k revs we now have 5.5k revs which is barely much less than the petrols - given BMW increase this each iteration we may well see peak power into the 5.3k revs and over 6k rev red line in the next gen. All good to look forward to.

[Wills2]

People talking about peak power in a petrol at 5800rpm like it's some kind of revtastic fest, try a S85 or S65 they are petrol engines worth driving.

Between an f30 335i or 335d I'd have to take the latter.

[FrankUnderwood]

TB Rich said:

Welshbeef said:

What 335d peak power is 4,800 not 4,200.

The 335d is 313bhp the 335i is 306bhp

The 335d is 4.6seconds to 62 the 335i 5.2 seconds.


Its certainly better sound than the 335d but this 335d really has a good noise when pressing on (otherwise silent) in cabin.





Your talking about the E90 3 series the game has moved on - maybe if you test these your eyes will be opened.




Also Alpina have the D3 which has over 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62 and 175mph and 50mpg combined ---- fast fun.

335d is xDrive only is it not, Vs rwd of the 335i...

0-60 is a pointless measurement at the best of times, even more so when you're comparing 4wd vs rwd - of course it'll get of the line quicker but it doesn't really tell us chuff all else other than traction and gearing which plays an important part too.

What about the 0-100mph times? I bet the 335i will have clawed much if not all of the deficit back?

tbh when cars are so close in real world performance it comes down to sound and delivery, you will always get used to a cars power and crave more so a nice sounding and clean to rev car even if slower would be my pick everyday. Hell I chose my 200 over a 123d even though quite a bit slower and thirstier, petrol is much more enjoyable than diesel.

The 35i engine produces more power for more of the time though, peak power is over a spread of 600 revs. With the 8 speed you could shift at 6500 and always be at or be very near to peak power.

[Welshbeef]

FrankUnderwood said:

The 35i engine produces more power for more of the time though, peak power is over a spread of 600 revs. With the 8 speed you could shift at 6500 and always be at or be very near to peak power.

So why is it so so much slower in every increment?

It has less power lower bhp per tonne i

The 8 speed auto will allow the 335d to be giving out its power advantage and be at or near its pearl power for more of the time too. Fail to see the point you are making.

[FrankUnderwood]

Wills2 said:

People talking about peak power in a petrol at 5800rpm like it's some kind of revtastic fest, try a S85 or S65 they are petrol engines worth driving.

Between an f30 335i or 335d I'd have to take the latter.

Although they (S Series Engines) are ///M and you wouldn't expect any compromise The one in the E92 M3 is amazing, as is the N62 found in the 745i, barges shouldn't be fun but the V8 is so rev happy and addictive

[longbow]

Has the 335d really improved so much to reverse this outcome against the 335i? Stock vs stock....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjKLSBl8CV0

[Clivey]

The 335i isn't the most powerful 3.0-litre turbo that BMW makes and the 335i isn't the fastest petrol 3-Series.

[Welshbeef]

FrankUnderwood said:

Welshbeef said:

FrankUnderwood said:

The 35i engine produces more power for more of the time though, peak power is over a spread of 600 revs. With the 8 speed you could shift at 6500 and always be at or be very near to peak power.

So why is it so so much slower in every increment?

It has less power lower bhp per tonne i

The 8 speed auto will allow the 335d to be giving out its power advantage and be at or near its pearl power for more of the time too. Fail to see the point you are making.

It's not slower though?!

The 335i F30 is slower than the 335d F30 fact.
Its 0-62 slower
0-100mph slower
Less power
Less bhp/tonne
Slower in every speed increment.


What makes you think its quicker? Or is it simply based upon the e90 335i v 335d where the 335i is quicker

[FrankUnderwood]

Welshbeef said:

FrankUnderwood said:

Welshbeef said:

FrankUnderwood said:

The 35i engine produces more power for more of the time though, peak power is over a spread of 600 revs. With the 8 speed you could shift at 6500 and always be at or be very near to peak power.

So why is it so so much slower in every increment?

It has less power lower bhp per tonne i

The 8 speed auto will allow the 335d to be giving out its power advantage and be at or near its pearl power for more of the time too. Fail to see the point you are making.

It's not slower though?!

The 335i F30 is slower than the 335d F30 fact.
Its 0-62 slower
0-100mph slower
Less power
Less bhp/tonne
Slower in every speed increment.


What makes you think its quicker? Or is it simply based upon the e90 335i v 335d where the 335i is quicker

30-70mph they're identical. Forward motion is determined by the bhp at the wheels, and the difference there is negligible for peak power.

Also, the 0-X figures... Is the 35d four wheel drive? Since when is 0-x applicable anyway? I've just spent the afternoon enjoying the Welsh Mountain roads and at no single point did I do a standing start. 30-60 plenty of times though.

The other point that has been made in the thread is that the delivery of power, noise and excitement is better in the petrol.

I can't help but feel that the 35i engine has been held back somewhat - It's only producing 100hp/1000cc which isn't that highly tuned for a turbo petrol. I suspect they could get way more power however they need to get the co2/mile down to please the EU.

Edited by FrankUnderwood on Thursday 24th July 21:20

[Welshbeef]

FrankUnderwood said:

30-70mph they're identical. Forward motion is determined by the bhp at the wheels, and the difference there is negligible for peak power.

Also, the 0-X figures... Is the 35d four wheel drive? Since when is 0-x applicable anyway? I've just spent the afternoon enjoying the Welsh Mountain roads and at no single point did I do a standing start. 30-60 plenty of times though.

The other point that has been made in the thread is that the delivery of power, noise and excitement is better in the petrol.

I can't help but feel that the 35i engine has been held back somewhat - It's only producing 100hp/1000cc which isn't that highly tuned for a turbo petrol. I suspect they could get way more power however they need to get the co2/mile down to please the EU.

Edited by FrankUnderwood on Thursday 24th July 21:20

Where is the source for the identical 30-70mph time?


Fully agree many don't do standing starts which is why in a diesel you can hit peak power in 3 gears without breaking the UK speed limit whereas all performance petrols you can only do it in 1st and 2nd.

Also remember the old E90 335d 286bhp would remap to over 350bhp so once the new 335d mappers break the code that same increment would push its power to c380bhp which is astonishing really (it could be a step ahead of that again we don't yet know).


In addition the LCI for F30 will see a 340d.... More power more economy what's not to like its good they exist and it forces petrol to keep stepping up again.

Given Alpina has simply remapped the 335d to make the D3 which ups it to well over 350bhp highlights its also restrained somewhat (something to do with the fact any more and the step to M3 would be pretty minimal ditto the 335i make it much faster then why spend £60-70k on M3 when a £38k 335i is more or less just as fast )



Noise agree petrol is better but oddly even Mcars are now sending engine noises through the speakers to enhance the sensation so petrols are not as good aurally as they once were.

[Welshbeef]

Clivey said:

The 335i isn't the most powerful 3.0-litre turbo that BMW makes and the 335i isn't the fastest petrol 3-Series.

True that the Actove Hybrid3.


Please don't call the M3 a 3 series as that diminishes the M car a lot it is not a run of the mill vehicle whereas 335d/i certainly are run of the mill

[TB Rich]

Welshbeef said:

TB Rich said:

Welshbeef said:

What 335d peak power is 4,800 not 4,200.

The 335d is 313bhp the 335i is 306bhp

The 335d is 4.6seconds to 62 the 335i 5.2 seconds.


Its certainly better sound than the 335d but this 335d really has a good noise when pressing on (otherwise silent) in cabin.





Your talking about the E90 3 series the game has moved on - maybe if you test these your eyes will be opened.




Also Alpina have the D3 which has over 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62 and 175mph and 50mpg combined ---- fast fun.

335d is xDrive only is it not, Vs rwd of the 335i...

0-60 is a pointless measurement at the best of times, even more so when you're comparing 4wd vs rwd - of course it'll get of the line quicker but it doesn't really tell us chuff all else other than traction and gearing which plays an important part too.

What about the 0-100mph times? I bet the 335i will have clawed much if not all of the deficit back?

tbh when cars are so close in real world performance it comes down to sound and delivery, you will always get used to a cars power and crave more so a nice sounding and clean to rev car even if slower would be my pick everyday. Hell I chose my 200 over a 123d even though quite a bit slower and thirstier, petrol is much more enjoyable than diesel.

Well I'm just responding to your statement that the 335i is quicker and more powerful when it is not - so this means the sole reason for choosing the 335i over a 335d is if you prefer rwd v 4x4 and noise in every other aspect its either identical or superior and faster than the petrol.

Heck if you look at the 330d rwd v Xdrive its barely 0.3/0.4 seconds quicker so on that logic the rwd 335d if it existed wild still be quicker (as you'd expect it has more bhp per tonne than the 335i and more absolute power so it will always be quicker


Point is its great that engineers have closed the gap so much that you can genuinely chose a diesel and beat /match or just come short v the good petrol we have come a very long way since Sierra 2.3D or the peaky 1.9 PD TDI VW units which were out of puff by 3k revs we now have 5.5k revs which is barely much less than the petrols - given BMW increase this each iteration we may well see peak power into the 5.3k revs and over 6k rev red line in the next gen. All good to look forward to.

Impressive given that was my first post in the thread and therefore I made no statement as such! I was simply quantifying some of the 0-60 difference is down to an entirely different drive train so not entirely apples vs apples.

I have no care which is faster 335d or 335i, I haven't looked into either cars 'numbers' to make a claim either way. Tbh either car is as dull as dish water to me.

A good point made by someone since though is that the 335i is not the top model and so commercially I'm sure it has been positioned at the power level it is so as to not infringe on the M3/4. Bare in mind the M3/4 is now turbo charged which means it has lost it's engine as a differentiator, so if the 335i was delivering much more power then it could detract from some pukka M sales or at least devalue it.