What's the most over-engineered "mainstream" car ever built?
Discussion
In my experience, Volvo made cars to last until the end of the last century. The only mainstream car to have factory fitted copper brake pipes for instance.
When I worked in a garage in the 1970s Volvos were head and shoulders above any other make except Mercedes and that carried on through the 240 and 940 era.
My mate has a 250,000 mile Volvo 960, it is still on the original front wishbones,though one ball joint has been renewed (replaceable not like lesser cars), the rear suspension has never been touched.
All it has had are front springs, 2 coil sticks, discs, steering rack, aircon pipe, heater fan and a fuel tank sender.
When you work on it you can tell it was designed by engineers, not cost cutting accountants and will not shake itself to pieces on our potholed roads.
The same mate ran a MK2 Granada up to 735,000 miles but it had four engines, gearboxes and diff noses in that time, it was pretty tired when it was rear ended on the A1 but I think these cars were the best built Fords of modern times.
For a cheap car the Beetle was pretty tough, there was probably more metal in 4 Beetle wings than in a whole modern VW.
When I worked in a garage in the 1970s Volvos were head and shoulders above any other make except Mercedes and that carried on through the 240 and 940 era.
My mate has a 250,000 mile Volvo 960, it is still on the original front wishbones,though one ball joint has been renewed (replaceable not like lesser cars), the rear suspension has never been touched.
All it has had are front springs, 2 coil sticks, discs, steering rack, aircon pipe, heater fan and a fuel tank sender.
When you work on it you can tell it was designed by engineers, not cost cutting accountants and will not shake itself to pieces on our potholed roads.
The same mate ran a MK2 Granada up to 735,000 miles but it had four engines, gearboxes and diff noses in that time, it was pretty tired when it was rear ended on the A1 but I think these cars were the best built Fords of modern times.
For a cheap car the Beetle was pretty tough, there was probably more metal in 4 Beetle wings than in a whole modern VW.
kev b said:
In my experience, Volvo made cars to last until the end of the last century. The only mainstream car to have factory fitted copper brake pipes for instance.
When I worked in a garage in the 1970s Volvos were head and shoulders above any other make except Mercedes and that carried on through the 240 and 940 era.
My mate has a 250,000 mile Volvo 960, it is still on the original front wishbones,though one ball joint has been renewed (replaceable not like lesser cars), the rear suspension has never been touched.
All it has had are front springs, 2 coil sticks, discs, steering rack, aircon pipe, heater fan and a fuel tank sender.
When you work on it you can tell it was designed by engineers, not cost cutting accountants and will not shake itself to pieces on our potholed roads.
The same mate ran a MK2 Granada up to 735,000 miles but it had four engines, gearboxes and diff noses in that time, it was pretty tired when it was rear ended on the A1 but I think these cars were the best built Fords of modern times.
For a cheap car the Beetle was pretty tough, there was probably more metal in 4 Beetle wings than in a whole modern VW.
I'll agree with a similar 'Volvo survival' story - but for a model that was a wee bit slated, and not revered with the traditional longevity of the Swedish wardrobe estates!When I worked in a garage in the 1970s Volvos were head and shoulders above any other make except Mercedes and that carried on through the 240 and 940 era.
My mate has a 250,000 mile Volvo 960, it is still on the original front wishbones,though one ball joint has been renewed (replaceable not like lesser cars), the rear suspension has never been touched.
All it has had are front springs, 2 coil sticks, discs, steering rack, aircon pipe, heater fan and a fuel tank sender.
When you work on it you can tell it was designed by engineers, not cost cutting accountants and will not shake itself to pieces on our potholed roads.
The same mate ran a MK2 Granada up to 735,000 miles but it had four engines, gearboxes and diff noses in that time, it was pretty tired when it was rear ended on the A1 but I think these cars were the best built Fords of modern times.
For a cheap car the Beetle was pretty tough, there was probably more metal in 4 Beetle wings than in a whole modern VW.
Over the last 10 years or so, the jobs I have had in that time have demanded a pretty monstrous commute that involved 200 motorway miles a day, 5 times a week. However, as that was for night-shifts, I've enjoyed basically empty motorways and dual carriageways on the commute.
So much so that, on the way home in the mornings, I have had such an empty road going home, that leptons of around 1.4 or so have been the order of the day.
I went through several cars in this period - as I clocked up around 45k miles a year on this commute.
The one car that I had which took all this kind of punishment and never - never - went wrong in any way, was a Volvo S40 T4.
I took it from a bought-in 70k miles, up to the point I sold it at just under 200k miles. All it had over that time was fuel, tyres, brakes and shock absorbers. That was it. Not a single other thing went wrong.
I am lead to understand that these S40's were built on the same production line as some Japanese Mitsubishis. But, whoever was in charge of the build and quality control, did an amazing job.
I was impressed anyway!
The EP3 is an over-engineered cars. As long as they're serviced on time with the right oil, they just keep going. There's nothing particularly complex in them, the VTEC system is bombproof, and what is there is exceptionally well built.
I recall someone looking to turbocharge their EP3 on the CTRO site, enquiring if the gearbox would need replacing. Apparently the standard clutch and box have been run at 350bhp+ by owners for many thousands of miles without so much as a grumble. How many other cars are built to that specification? While the Civic was tough enough to run nearly double it's standard power, the Focus ST of the same era, with 225bhp, would start to demolish it's clutch and needed upgraded to an RS item once 270bhp was exceeded.
I recall someone looking to turbocharge their EP3 on the CTRO site, enquiring if the gearbox would need replacing. Apparently the standard clutch and box have been run at 350bhp+ by owners for many thousands of miles without so much as a grumble. How many other cars are built to that specification? While the Civic was tough enough to run nearly double it's standard power, the Focus ST of the same era, with 225bhp, would start to demolish it's clutch and needed upgraded to an RS item once 270bhp was exceeded.
Crafty_ said:
Cheating a bit, Land Rover defender ? its an older design than the given cut off but nevertheless the things go on for years.
I would say they are the exact opposite!! All the right ingredients for a off roader let down by poor quality Fragile components and most after a fewYears are like the farmer's brush ...
NiceCupOfTea said:
Saabs up to the GM takeover.
Classic 900 (79-94) properly over engineered, but possibly even better is the 9000. Unbelievably solid and just keep going with starship miles.
The other halfs 9000 is still going strong and drives like new...Even with the larger turbo fitted and running nearly double standard power it's wonderfully reliable and smooth to drive, I'd happily drive it for another 100K miles plus.Classic 900 (79-94) properly over engineered, but possibly even better is the 9000. Unbelievably solid and just keep going with starship miles.
Even my 1999 9-3 still drives fantastically at 135k and a good bit more than standard power. The only issue I've had with it is a burst coolant pipe. It'll be a long time before I even entertain the idea of changing them.
I might also mention the 9-5 cup holder
Tickle said:
VW Phaeton had quite a bit of over engineering going on, maybe pushing the mainstream bit though.
No, you're absolutely right. It well and truly slipped under the radar. I can only imagine some very experienced and now retired VW employees are feeling much like a particular Dutch painter did prior to his departure.Couple of mentions of the E34 BMW... I'm not going to suggest that it is 'the most' over engineered car, but it was designed and built to compete with the infamous quality of the Mercedes of the period and it does show. The mechanicals are particularly good, you really need a socket set which goes up to 1/2" drive to work on it because the fixings are so beefy and all of the bolts have really high quality zinc plating. I have done all manner of work on mine and nothing was seized and nothing has sheared.
I have had absolutely no unexpected failures with mine and this is an 18 year, 130k mile car.
I have had absolutely no unexpected failures with mine and this is an 18 year, 130k mile car.
I think the OP and this thread seem to be confusing over engineering with good design
An over engineered car is not one which 15 years and 200k miles is still going strong as a good car of it's day, and in many of the examples given, only really advances towards greater efficiency and obviously there slightly dated appearances stop them remaining a good car of any day.
An over engineered car is one which solved problems which didn't exist, to the detriment of the car, eg making it too heavy, too expensive or too complicated.
I'd say the BMW E39 is a good example, it was much more hightech than the previous generation and now if you look at them now they have something of a reputation for electrical issues, older bmws also had a bit of a reputation for electrical issues, but the e34s are considered a very safe bet, if it wasn't for the very dated appearance and the lack of decent diesel models i suspect e34s would be be far more popular old barges than e39s.
Basically they took a step backwards before they could take the next steps forward
An over engineered car is not one which 15 years and 200k miles is still going strong as a good car of it's day, and in many of the examples given, only really advances towards greater efficiency and obviously there slightly dated appearances stop them remaining a good car of any day.
An over engineered car is one which solved problems which didn't exist, to the detriment of the car, eg making it too heavy, too expensive or too complicated.
I'd say the BMW E39 is a good example, it was much more hightech than the previous generation and now if you look at them now they have something of a reputation for electrical issues, older bmws also had a bit of a reputation for electrical issues, but the e34s are considered a very safe bet, if it wasn't for the very dated appearance and the lack of decent diesel models i suspect e34s would be be far more popular old barges than e39s.
Basically they took a step backwards before they could take the next steps forward
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