Why are US crate engines so cheaap compared to European ones
Discussion
jamiebae said:
J4CKO said:
So, looks like a combination of,
German "premiumness"
Economies of Scale
Not wanting their engines turning up in restyled Z3's (I like it, not a criticism, but may be a factor)
Slightly more complex and better assembled
Still doesn't explain it being 8 or so times more expensive, just buy a yank V8, or spend the same and get 2000 bhp.
Production volumes and demand are also important. A boat anchor pushrod V8 from a truck sells in massively higher volumes than the equivalent engine in a sports car or exec barge.German "premiumness"
Economies of Scale
Not wanting their engines turning up in restyled Z3's (I like it, not a criticism, but may be a factor)
Slightly more complex and better assembled
Still doesn't explain it being 8 or so times more expensive, just buy a yank V8, or spend the same and get 2000 bhp.
A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
Not sure why they are Boat Anchor Pushrod V8's ?
Not sure how they are way more sophisticated, its a block, crank and pistons, it isnt like the yank ones are thrown together, they seem very robust and tunable, am sure they can be tuned to similar outputs ?
There is nothing I can see that would mean the Merc engine is 50 grand versus 5 to 10 grand, other than they have no interest in selling them to punters without a car round them.
jamiebae said:
Production volumes and demand are also important. A boat anchor pushrod V8 from a truck sells in massively higher volumes than the equivalent engine in a sports car or exec barge.
A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
Oh please. Check the weights, check the materials in an LS7. Oh and then check up on California emission regs. They had emission regs before Europe had even heard of them. A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
PH - where an ever increasing amont of b
ks is typed 
Gixer said:
jamiebae said:
Production volumes and demand are also important. A boat anchor pushrod V8 from a truck sells in massively higher volumes than the equivalent engine in a sports car or exec barge.
A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
Oh please. Check the weights, check the materials in an LS7. Oh and then check up on California emission regs. They had emission regs before Europe had even heard of them. A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
PH - where an ever increasing amont of b
ks is typed Funny how some look on the Americans as a bit dumb and unsophisticated, ok, many are but do not underestimate them, there are many reasons they are so powerful and wealthy, and being stupid isn't one of them !
Gixer said:
jamiebae said:
Production volumes and demand are also important. A boat anchor pushrod V8 from a truck sells in massively higher volumes than the equivalent engine in a sports car or exec barge.
A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
Oh please. Check the weights, check the materials in an LS7. Oh and then check up on California emission regs. They had emission regs before Europe had even heard of them. A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
PH - where an ever increasing amont of b
ks is typed A crate Ford Eco Boost 1.0 is (I'm told) 3x the price of a 1.6 Sigma, this is because of the production techniques and low friction components needed to get the emissions down to the levels demanded by European customers which even when being made in massive volumes is still very expensive (plasma coating and so on).
Also, 'trucks' don't have to comply with the same regs as cars in the USA so the engines can be 'dirtier' and still be sold, the vast majority of the crate engines are the truck versions, possibly modified by a reseller to make more power (not a bad thing at all, but just making the point)
Since when have we been talking about truck engines?
We have been discussing LSx engines here
Can't wait to see an Eco boost engine with 3-400k miles on it. Lol
Oh as for Euro emission tests. I thought Euro cars were designed to pass a completely flawed test in lab scenario and of course out in the real world the mpg and thus the emissions is actually way off.
There are plenty of variable timed, overhead cam engines in the US. I don't see why people on here get so hung up on OHC etc etc. and here's the shock, engines are not all that complicated and are a pretty old technology, refined yes, but fundamentally they are old, whether they have been tweaked with variable timing or a turbo or are OHC or IBC they are all still old. The reason GM went back down the pushrod cam in block design is packaging. Spend some time on google. The small overall size of a 7 litre LS7 is amazing. It really is tiny. Much smaller than many euro engines of half the capacity and smaller. For unsophisticated truck engine boat anchors, they appear to run rings around many of Europe's finest at the ring and let's not forget the dominance of them in AlMS and Le Mans over the last decade and a half. Not just in podiums but also in the noise stakes. Not bad for cam in block boat anchor. Wonder what all the other teams were doing with their far more sophisticated and complicated euro engines....
As for the usual 'is that all' bks that's spouted every time we get a thread like this on here. It's not peak HP I'm interested in. It's the power and torque throughout the entire rev range that an LSx provides.
We have been discussing LSx engines here
Can't wait to see an Eco boost engine with 3-400k miles on it. Lol
Oh as for Euro emission tests. I thought Euro cars were designed to pass a completely flawed test in lab scenario and of course out in the real world the mpg and thus the emissions is actually way off.
There are plenty of variable timed, overhead cam engines in the US. I don't see why people on here get so hung up on OHC etc etc. and here's the shock, engines are not all that complicated and are a pretty old technology, refined yes, but fundamentally they are old, whether they have been tweaked with variable timing or a turbo or are OHC or IBC they are all still old. The reason GM went back down the pushrod cam in block design is packaging. Spend some time on google. The small overall size of a 7 litre LS7 is amazing. It really is tiny. Much smaller than many euro engines of half the capacity and smaller. For unsophisticated truck engine boat anchors, they appear to run rings around many of Europe's finest at the ring and let's not forget the dominance of them in AlMS and Le Mans over the last decade and a half. Not just in podiums but also in the noise stakes. Not bad for cam in block boat anchor. Wonder what all the other teams were doing with their far more sophisticated and complicated euro engines....
As for the usual 'is that all' b
ks that's spouted every time we get a thread like this on here. It's not peak HP I'm interested in. It's the power and torque throughout the entire rev range that an LSx provides. ferrariF50lover said:
That looks like a dreadful engine. How on earth do they get so little power from such an enormous motor?
Simon.
The AMG 6.2 m156 isn't much better 73bhp per litre vs. 66hp per litre and everyone thinks that engine's amazeballs.Simon.
As for the 50k price tag for m156 that just means they don't want to sell anyone them.
An EcoBoost won't do 300k, and the tests in Europe are indeed fundamentally flawed , that's exactly why the engines are stupidly complex and expensive as if you launched a Fiesta with 140g/KM CO2 nobody would buy it.
Racing is a different game entirely, restricting fuel or air use to match performance across manufacturers from a 4.0 six to a 7.0 eight for example so not really relevant here.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I love big US V8 engines, I'm just trying to explain why they're so cheap compared to something from Europe.
Racing is a different game entirely, restricting fuel or air use to match performance across manufacturers from a 4.0 six to a 7.0 eight for example so not really relevant here.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I love big US V8 engines, I'm just trying to explain why they're so cheap compared to something from Europe.
I think racing is relevant. Lessons learned here roll over to more widely used technologies. The GT1 and later the GT pro corvette using 'old boat anchor V8's' have often won the low fuel consumption award after competing at Le Mans. Technologies learnt here have allegedly rolled over into the latest engine now in the the C7.
How can an engine that produces less Co2 in its life but has a significantly shorter life be better for the environment?
Factor in the emissions involved throughout the complete build process and I bet a traditional engine will be less.
Another reason I don't buy into the whole emission, C02 bullst scam anyway. All these targets etc always fail to take into account the whole picture and the life span of said product.
How long were they using unleaded in the US before we had it widely used over here?
They're cheap because GM builds them to sell as crate engines and it sells st loads of them..... And of course pretty much everything is cheap in the US. Look at the price of the new Corvette C7 there. It's £70k here. Well over €100 in many euro countries.
How can an engine that produces less Co2 in its life but has a significantly shorter life be better for the environment?
Factor in the emissions involved throughout the complete build process and I bet a traditional engine will be less.
Another reason I don't buy into the whole emission, C02 bulls
t scam anyway. All these targets etc always fail to take into account the whole picture and the life span of said product. How long were they using unleaded in the US before we had it widely used over here?
They're cheap because GM builds them to sell as crate engines and it sells s
t loads of them..... And of course pretty much everything is cheap in the US. Look at the price of the new Corvette C7 there. It's £70k here. Well over €100 in many euro countries. Edited by Gixer on Saturday 26th July 21:38
I have a 6.2L LSA in my Monaro, same engine as the Cadillac CTSV and Camaro ZL1. I've had mine built with forged pistons, CNC ported heads and a bigger 2300 supercharger, same as the LS9 from the ZR1 corvette.
It makes 824 HP and will return an average of 17mpg, more on a run.Unlike the UK and most of Europe, America are experts in V8 power and don't forget they have a whole nation to satisfy who love their big motors.
An LSX 376 B15 crate engine can be bought for £6k and IS DESIGNED for 1000HP with a pair of turbos. You people need to wake up.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19...
It makes 824 HP and will return an average of 17mpg, more on a run.Unlike the UK and most of Europe, America are experts in V8 power and don't forget they have a whole nation to satisfy who love their big motors.
An LSX 376 B15 crate engine can be bought for £6k and IS DESIGNED for 1000HP with a pair of turbos. You people need to wake up.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19...
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 26th July 23:30
People shouldn't get hung up in the number of valves or can shafts. GM have proven that the latest LS units with 2 valves and SOHC can be just as economical as multi valve DOHC units.
The reason why LS units are cheaper comes down to two core facts: Firstly, the economies of scale. The LS block and basic ancillaries are used in hundreds of applications. They build an enormous number of them. And secondly, brand power. GM brand strength in terms of Mark up is very low in contrast to Mercedes or BMW who can vend at higher price points for greater margin to compensate for lower volumes.
The reason why LS units are cheaper comes down to two core facts: Firstly, the economies of scale. The LS block and basic ancillaries are used in hundreds of applications. They build an enormous number of them. And secondly, brand power. GM brand strength in terms of Mark up is very low in contrast to Mercedes or BMW who can vend at higher price points for greater margin to compensate for lower volumes.
jamiebae said:
J4CKO said:
So, looks like a combination of,
German "premiumness"
Economies of Scale
Not wanting their engines turning up in restyled Z3's (I like it, not a criticism, but may be a factor)
Slightly more complex and better assembled
Still doesn't explain it being 8 or so times more expensive, just buy a yank V8, or spend the same and get 2000 bhp.
Production volumes and demand are also important. A boat anchor pushrod V8 from a truck sells in massively higher volumes than the equivalent engine in a sports car or exec barge.German "premiumness"
Economies of Scale
Not wanting their engines turning up in restyled Z3's (I like it, not a criticism, but may be a factor)
Slightly more complex and better assembled
Still doesn't explain it being 8 or so times more expensive, just buy a yank V8, or spend the same and get 2000 bhp.
A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
The folks next door who have last years Renault or German boring white goods
Throw away s
t box with a tiny turbo 4 that sounds like a blocked hooverOr a diesel.. Some of us are petrolheads !!!!!
jamiebae said:
Production volumes and demand are also important. A boat anchor pushrod V8 from a truck sells in massively higher volumes than the equivalent engine in a sports car or exec barge.
A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
I don't suppose many euro engines come with titanium rods and valve train parts as standard though. Some Ls engines are way beyond the 'boat anchor' description you mentioned. A Euro engine is way more sophisticated than an LS V8 too, as we have way tighter emissions regs, and a market where fuel economy and CO2 figures are what sells cars.
HertsBiker said:
Why all the negativity over push rods? Keep the revs down and who needs OHC with all the problems of driving the cams, probably externally, for half a million miles?
I suppose it's much like the naive dismissal of leaf-springs. Because they were used in old cars everyone assumes that they're fundamentally old-fashioned. Because
1. Economies of scale... the Americans build/sell more V8's in just a few months than all the new car's sold in the UK combined.
2. We are ripped off in the UK. Sky high tax rates, multiple methods of taxation, Co2 based legislation, much smaller aftermarket/modification scene etc etc
1. Economies of scale... the Americans build/sell more V8's in just a few months than all the new car's sold in the UK combined.
2. We are ripped off in the UK. Sky high tax rates, multiple methods of taxation, Co2 based legislation, much smaller aftermarket/modification scene etc etc
Power per litre of displaced capacity is a metric of no fundamental value at all.
Power per pound of engine weight, or per cubic foot of total exterior engine volume, or per litre of fuel burned: these are metrics which are of genuine engineering value. And the LSx is very good at those.
Power per pound of engine weight, or per cubic foot of total exterior engine volume, or per litre of fuel burned: these are metrics which are of genuine engineering value. And the LSx is very good at those.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff