RE: TVR Sagaris: PH Carpool
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
DonkeyApple said:
Good read.
Two rules of thumb for Tivs:
Firstly, try to avoid them living outside. The simple fact is that for the money they cost its bloody obvious some corners had to be cut. Cost cutting on electrics and metalwork prep simply means that a life outside will bring some obvious issues. Especially if not used regularly. Keep it in a dry garage and funnily enough you don't have the problems that many have reported.
Secondly, don't drive them like you're a coat hanger vendor late for the monthly dogging event. You can still drive them bloody hard but the mechanically unsympathetic who dump total unrequired strain on the drivetrain because they've only ever driven over engineered, mass produced boxes. Drive them well and surprisingly they don't break.
Bits will fall off. If you have the two hands needed to drive in the first instance then you have two hands to pick up and glue it back on.
or, if you are far too important for such crude manual labour then you can pay a smarter person to do it for you.
Bits will wear out. Replace them.
They don't drive like other performance cars. Damn right they don't. If they did then they would be just like those other performance cars. They drive their way like 911s need a different driving style to be safe, so do Tivs. Engage brain, learn that style and amazingly you won't be crashing it joining a motorway or Barrying it like a company Mondeo on a roundabout.
Biggest risk for Tivs is that they are cheap. This means that a fair number will have been bought by an idiot who then didn't have the money to maintain it and so f
ked it and flogged it on. Usually accompanied by a load of bhing about it. It's really important to buy smart.
These aren't robust cars but if you are not a mug and you understand what it is that you've just bought then you don't get much trouble unless you are genuinely unlucky.
I've had them for over twenty years. I've also had top of the range BMWs, Jags and Rangies over that period. All very well looked after. I've been stranded more times by BMW than Tivs and at least when a Tiv breaks it's a nice, social event getting it fixed. You don't have to del with some polyester suited goon who struggles to spew out some form of pidgin English.
Genuinely always enjoy reading your posts Two rules of thumb for Tivs:
Firstly, try to avoid them living outside. The simple fact is that for the money they cost its bloody obvious some corners had to be cut. Cost cutting on electrics and metalwork prep simply means that a life outside will bring some obvious issues. Especially if not used regularly. Keep it in a dry garage and funnily enough you don't have the problems that many have reported.
Secondly, don't drive them like you're a coat hanger vendor late for the monthly dogging event. You can still drive them bloody hard but the mechanically unsympathetic who dump total unrequired strain on the drivetrain because they've only ever driven over engineered, mass produced boxes. Drive them well and surprisingly they don't break.
Bits will fall off. If you have the two hands needed to drive in the first instance then you have two hands to pick up and glue it back on.
or, if you are far too important for such crude manual labour then you can pay a smarter person to do it for you. Bits will wear out. Replace them.
They don't drive like other performance cars. Damn right they don't. If they did then they would be just like those other performance cars. They drive their way like 911s need a different driving style to be safe, so do Tivs. Engage brain, learn that style and amazingly you won't be crashing it joining a motorway or Barrying it like a company Mondeo on a roundabout.
Biggest risk for Tivs is that they are cheap. This means that a fair number will have been bought by an idiot who then didn't have the money to maintain it and so f
ked it and flogged it on. Usually accompanied by a load of bhing about it. It's really important to buy smart. These aren't robust cars but if you are not a mug and you understand what it is that you've just bought then you don't get much trouble unless you are genuinely unlucky.
I've had them for over twenty years. I've also had top of the range BMWs, Jags and Rangies over that period. All very well looked after. I've been stranded more times by BMW than Tivs and at least when a Tiv breaks it's a nice, social event getting it fixed. You don't have to del with some polyester suited goon who struggles to spew out some form of pidgin English.
the knowledge and experience and humour you have is always appreciated by me that's for sure. The main one that resonates is the price. If you can afford to spend £100k plus on a car without splashing your inheritence when you're 19 then generally you have a healthy income and can afford to maintain your £100k+ car too. You take it for it's annual service and ask the nice man there to list everything it could do with to get it 100%, get a guesstimate then tell him to crack on.
Buy a TVR for Mondeo money and the supercaresque bills to keep an aging cheaply made, light weight, high performance sports car absolutely tip-top can surprise. For example, most TVR owners will want to get their aftermarket adjustable dampers reconditioned every few years to keep them working as-new/as-set up. I recall someone on PH asking in the TVR forums why only TVRs suffered this and other cars don't have this requirement. That's because most TVR owners want the car spot on and because it's all so raw you can sense everything that's wrong. In most mainstream cars you just run them down and sell them on knackered.
Buying a TVR for Mondeo money and expecting to run them on Mondeo money will require a competent and hands-on owner to look after it himself. It can be done and is done regularly, but it needs a certain type of owner. The fact is that he couldn't get that sort of driving experience otherwise because the purchase price of anything remotely comparible is multiples higher.
If you don't want to do th work yourself, then you need an income that would fund the running of more expensive exotica but just don't fancy having significant sums of money tied up in one such car.
cerb4.5lee said:
j_s14a said:
BJG1 said:
If you were jumping into a Gallardo, R8 etc afterwards it's obviously going to feel flawed.
Flawed? A raw, visceral driving experience sounds like heaven. 
The Sagaris was the last in a line of very special cars. The ultimate realization of TVRs bonkers ethos, just refined enough to make it liveable. Some people don't get it, and there's a whole host of DSG equipped cars out there for them, with electronic steering and 20 suspension modes.
You either get them, or you don't.
jamieduff1981 said:
Yep good post DA.
The main one that resonates is the price. If you can afford to spend £100k plus on a car without splashing your inheritence when you're 19 then generally you have a healthy income and can afford to maintain your £100k+ car too. You take it for it's annual service and ask the nice man there to list everything it could do with to get it 100%, get a guesstimate then tell him to crack on.
Buy a TVR for Mondeo money and the supercaresque bills to keep an aging cheaply made, light weight, high performance sports car absolutely tip-top can surprise. For example, most TVR owners will want to get their aftermarket adjustable dampers reconditioned every few years to keep them working as-new/as-set up. I recall someone on PH asking in the TVR forums why only TVRs suffered this and other cars don't have this requirement. That's because most TVR owners want the car spot on and because it's all so raw you can sense everything that's wrong. In most mainstream cars you just run them down and sell them on knackered.
Buying a TVR for Mondeo money and expecting to run them on Mondeo money will require a competent and hands-on owner to look after it himself. It can be done and is done regularly, but it needs a certain type of owner. The fact is that he couldn't get that sort of driving experience otherwise because the purchase price of anything remotely comparible is multiples higher.
If you don't want to do th work yourself, then you need an income that would fund the running of more expensive exotica but just don't fancy having significant sums of money tied up in one such car.
I bought my Tamora for a reasonable £16k last year - but with the knowledge that I would be spending over double that again to get it how I want it. The good thing about these cars is the fact you can change/replace virtually anything, making them better than new in some cases.The main one that resonates is the price. If you can afford to spend £100k plus on a car without splashing your inheritence when you're 19 then generally you have a healthy income and can afford to maintain your £100k+ car too. You take it for it's annual service and ask the nice man there to list everything it could do with to get it 100%, get a guesstimate then tell him to crack on.
Buy a TVR for Mondeo money and the supercaresque bills to keep an aging cheaply made, light weight, high performance sports car absolutely tip-top can surprise. For example, most TVR owners will want to get their aftermarket adjustable dampers reconditioned every few years to keep them working as-new/as-set up. I recall someone on PH asking in the TVR forums why only TVRs suffered this and other cars don't have this requirement. That's because most TVR owners want the car spot on and because it's all so raw you can sense everything that's wrong. In most mainstream cars you just run them down and sell them on knackered.
Buying a TVR for Mondeo money and expecting to run them on Mondeo money will require a competent and hands-on owner to look after it himself. It can be done and is done regularly, but it needs a certain type of owner. The fact is that he couldn't get that sort of driving experience otherwise because the purchase price of anything remotely comparible is multiples higher.
If you don't want to do th work yourself, then you need an income that would fund the running of more expensive exotica but just don't fancy having significant sums of money tied up in one such car.
chris watton said:
cerb4.5lee said:
j_s14a said:
BJG1 said:
If you were jumping into a Gallardo, R8 etc afterwards it's obviously going to feel flawed.
Flawed? A raw, visceral driving experience sounds like heaven. The Sagaris was the last in a line of very special cars. The ultimate realization of TVRs bonkers ethos, just refined enough to make it liveable. Some people don't get it, and there's a whole host of DSG equipped cars out there for them, with electronic steering and 20 suspension modes.
You either get them, or you don't.
BJG1 said:
There's nothing wrong with my assertion there. It is definitely not without its flaws. That doesn't make it a bad car.
I think that if you removed the flaws it would be a crap car. It's the quirks that make them special and different. You just need to know when to use green Evo Stik or red.
BJG1 said:
chris watton said:
cerb4.5lee said:
j_s14a said:
BJG1 said:
If you were jumping into a Gallardo, R8 etc afterwards it's obviously going to feel flawed.
Flawed? A raw, visceral driving experience sounds like heaven. The Sagaris was the last in a line of very special cars. The ultimate realization of TVRs bonkers ethos, just refined enough to make it liveable. Some people don't get it, and there's a whole host of DSG equipped cars out there for them, with electronic steering and 20 suspension modes.
You either get them, or you don't.
I think anyone with half a brain knows a TVR is flawed and I also love most German metal and they are very accomplished and excellent at what they do but very exciting they certainly are not and that is why a TVR appeals to me more personally.Both those types of car have merits but its the raw driving appeal of a TVR that wins the day for me and when you are driving a TVR you have to think about what you are doing and respect it or you are heading for a field or similar.
With my old V8 M3(admitted no comparison to a Gallardo/R8)for example you could drive that flat out pretty much everywhere and never worry that it would ever leave the road(even with the traction off)and you had to be doing very silly speeds for it to even start to feel involving or exciting whereas in my Cerbera even at 30 mph I had a smile on my face and that's the difference for me.
DonkeyApple said:
I think that if you removed the flaws it would be a crap car. It's the quirks that make them special and different.
You just need to know when to use green Evo Stik or red.
I don't get this attitude really. The flaws is what made them cheap for the performance new. I don't think the heat that comes from the engine makes the car special or different but I do appreciate that it makes it cheaper.You just need to know when to use green Evo Stik or red.
BJG1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think that if you removed the flaws it would be a crap car. It's the quirks that make them special and different.
You just need to know when to use green Evo Stik or red.
I don't get this attitude really. The flaws is what made them cheap for the performance new. I don't think the heat that comes from the engine makes the car special or different but I do appreciate that it makes it cheaper.You just need to know when to use green Evo Stik or red.
And yes, these cars are cheap. They were made using man power not technology. This is the price that you pay if you need to keep the cost of your product below your perceived competition when your largest cost is labour.
But I've driven an awful lot of small volume cars with huge engines located back against the bulkhead and big pipes needed to ditch the exhaust and guess what? They can get bloody hot if you decide to go and sit in an urban traffic jam.
Interestingly, mine has factory fitted bulkhead heat shielding and shielding for the pipes and trans tunnel. It also has a larger engine bay and the net result is that it doesn't suffer from this problem. It is however, also a car that cost twice as much to build as they tried to sell them for when they actually crunched the numbers.
DonkeyApple said:
Perfection is boring. There isn't anything visceral, intimidating, frightening or exciting about perfect cars.
And yes, these cars are cheap. They were made using man power not technology. This is the price that you pay if you need to keep the cost of your product below your perceived competition when your largest cost is labour.
But I've driven an awful lot of small volume cars with huge engines located back against the bulkhead and big pipes needed to ditch the exhaust and guess what? They can get bloody hot if you decide to go and sit in an urban traffic jam.
Interestingly, mine has factory fitted bulkhead heat shielding and shielding for the pipes and trans tunnel. It also has a larger engine bay and the net result is that it doesn't suffer from this problem. It is however, also a car that cost twice as much to build as they tried to sell them for when they actually crunched the numbers.
I'm not particularly disagreeing - I wouldn't have bought one if I didn't think it was worth the compromise. I just think it's a bit silly to dismiss the guys point that the car felt flawed in comparison to other 'supercars'. As he didn't clarify I've taken that to mean similarly priced performance cars and the fact is that it does. Different strokes for different folks and all that - I'm happy to put up with a few things about the Sagaris because I love the way it looks, sounds and drives but I do acknowledge they exist. I don't drive an R8 because of the opposite. And yes, these cars are cheap. They were made using man power not technology. This is the price that you pay if you need to keep the cost of your product below your perceived competition when your largest cost is labour.
But I've driven an awful lot of small volume cars with huge engines located back against the bulkhead and big pipes needed to ditch the exhaust and guess what? They can get bloody hot if you decide to go and sit in an urban traffic jam.
Interestingly, mine has factory fitted bulkhead heat shielding and shielding for the pipes and trans tunnel. It also has a larger engine bay and the net result is that it doesn't suffer from this problem. It is however, also a car that cost twice as much to build as they tried to sell them for when they actually crunched the numbers.
BJG1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Perfection is boring. There isn't anything visceral, intimidating, frightening or exciting about perfect cars.
And yes, these cars are cheap. They were made using man power not technology. This is the price that you pay if you need to keep the cost of your product below your perceived competition when your largest cost is labour.
But I've driven an awful lot of small volume cars with huge engines located back against the bulkhead and big pipes needed to ditch the exhaust and guess what? They can get bloody hot if you decide to go and sit in an urban traffic jam.
Interestingly, mine has factory fitted bulkhead heat shielding and shielding for the pipes and trans tunnel. It also has a larger engine bay and the net result is that it doesn't suffer from this problem. It is however, also a car that cost twice as much to build as they tried to sell them for when they actually crunched the numbers.
I'm not particularly disagreeing - I wouldn't have bought one if I didn't think it was worth the compromise. I just think it's a bit silly to dismiss the guys point that the car felt flawed in comparison to other 'supercars'. As he didn't clarify I've taken that to mean similarly priced performance cars and the fact is that it does. Different strokes for different folks and all that - I'm happy to put up with a few things about the Sagaris because I love the way it looks, sounds and drives but I do acknowledge they exist. I don't drive an R8 because of the opposite. And yes, these cars are cheap. They were made using man power not technology. This is the price that you pay if you need to keep the cost of your product below your perceived competition when your largest cost is labour.
But I've driven an awful lot of small volume cars with huge engines located back against the bulkhead and big pipes needed to ditch the exhaust and guess what? They can get bloody hot if you decide to go and sit in an urban traffic jam.
Interestingly, mine has factory fitted bulkhead heat shielding and shielding for the pipes and trans tunnel. It also has a larger engine bay and the net result is that it doesn't suffer from this problem. It is however, also a car that cost twice as much to build as they tried to sell them for when they actually crunched the numbers.
In short, someone who owns a Sag and finds it continuously exciting is probably going to find anything like an R8 rather anodine and just a compromised version of any other mass produced performance car with all the fancy things you can program it to do to your anus while you drive, buttons to move your anus forward, back, up, down, cool it, warm it, shake it. For the majority of people it does appear that being able to endlessly fettle with your anus while travelling at 100 mph is far more important and rewarding that endlessly fettling with mechanical machinery while travelling at 80 mph. Conversely, someone who owns a Sag but finds it lacking in what they seek in a car are much better to buy something like a 911, F Type, R8 etc.
I think they are two distinct groups as highlighted by the army of TVR customers who jumped brands the moment the mainstream comfort builders starting delivering SLKs, Boxsters etc etc. But there are a small number of people who relish the idea of a long drive to Le Mans where they arrive knackered, smelly and slightly gassed over just sitting for hours in a climate controlled uber wagon that does everything for you. I think TVRs are a kind of 'link' between two types of cars like the human links between Neandethal and Modern Man.
DonkeyApple said:
In short, someone who owns a Sag and finds it continuously exciting is probably going to find anything like an R8 rather anodine and just a compromised version of any other mass produced performance car with all the fancy things you can program it to do to your anus while you drive, buttons to move your anus forward, back, up, down, cool it, warm it, shake it. For the majority of people it does appear that being able to endlessly fettle with your anus while travelling at 100 mph is far more important and rewarding that endlessly fettling with mechanical machinery while travelling at 80 mph. Conversely, someone who owns a Sag but finds it lacking in what they seek in a car are much better to buy something like a 911, F Type, R8 etc.
Spot on, as usual!
I only hope that I can afford to buy a Tuscan S within the next few years and before the prices rise out of my league! - As for this Sagaris and it's owner's attitude & commitment:
Fantastic. - Again, I only wish I had the funds to do something similar!R400TVR said:
Solving the heat soak into the cabin is easy. Just have the slashes opened into proper vents and motorise the two panels in the middle to open at a certain temp to let heat out.
Otherwise, it's great to hear of one of the last "real mans' cars" being used as intended.
Prototypes had real vents, but stones kept flying up through them and those of a certain size actually got stuck in the vents. That is why they were closed off for production (or so I am told).Otherwise, it's great to hear of one of the last "real mans' cars" being used as intended.
If you open the vents, you should add some wire mesh to prevent this, as others have done.
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