Ford Focus ST vs Mondeo 2.5t
Discussion
Hi everyone, new to the forum so I am sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place. I am 23 years old and currently drive a semi working peugeot 407 2.0 hdi which has served me well for the last 2.5 years. Now I am very fed up with the car as I bought it to use on the motorway in my past job. Before I enter fatherhood, I want a fast(ish) car that's not worn out and still has that new style look. The focus ST looks like a great choice and I really like the speed it can kick out but my girlfriend has a 1.8 version and I have to say that I don't really like driving it. I know the ST will be a very different drive in terms of performance but I think it's the size and the tinnyness of it that puts me off. So, I have found an alternative. I'm kind of into big cars so the mondeo 2.5t looks just right for me as it seems quite fast, modern and big! I'm just wondering what the performance difference are between the two? I'm seriously considering remapping the mondeo if I did get it. Has anyone had encounters with both? What's your opinions? Thanks a lot!
I have one.
Ignoring the bits that are generic to the Mondeo
Good things.
The engine is epic.
It makes a nice noise
It's not too bad on a run
It's very subtle.
Still the fastest Mk4 Mondeo (faster than the 2.0T)
Bad things
It's a bit too quiet (partly due to missing the sound generator).
It will drink fuel if you put your foot down.
It's much slower than the Focus ST (gearing and weight)
It's rare
It's a big car - can get a little 'tight' on narrow lanes.
It can eat tyres.
As regards tuning most of the stuff you can do to the Focus ST also applies. First thing would be a new intercooler and a remap. Bluefin claims 49hp extra - http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/search?make=9&model...
Downside is the same as the Focus ST that if you ramp up the power too high the clutch can go, the Focus RS clutch+flywheel fits and then is good for plenty more but it's about a grand.
I've heard (although recently so not verified it) that if you run it on 98 you'll see 230ps rather than 217ps (source: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/ford/ford-m... )
Oh and finally personally I'd avoid any cars with 19in wheels, they'll cost you an extra £400+ every tyre change (assuming 4 tyres) over the 18in wheels!
Ignoring the bits that are generic to the Mondeo
Good things.
The engine is epic.
It makes a nice noise
It's not too bad on a run
It's very subtle.
Still the fastest Mk4 Mondeo (faster than the 2.0T)
Bad things
It's a bit too quiet (partly due to missing the sound generator).
It will drink fuel if you put your foot down.
It's much slower than the Focus ST (gearing and weight)
It's rare
It's a big car - can get a little 'tight' on narrow lanes.
It can eat tyres.
As regards tuning most of the stuff you can do to the Focus ST also applies. First thing would be a new intercooler and a remap. Bluefin claims 49hp extra - http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/search?make=9&model...
Downside is the same as the Focus ST that if you ramp up the power too high the clutch can go, the Focus RS clutch+flywheel fits and then is good for plenty more but it's about a grand.
I've heard (although recently so not verified it) that if you run it on 98 you'll see 230ps rather than 217ps (source: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/ford/ford-m... )
Oh and finally personally I'd avoid any cars with 19in wheels, they'll cost you an extra £400+ every tyre change (assuming 4 tyres) over the 18in wheels!
Some more good things:
Despite being turbocharged you'd stuggle to notice, it's not laggy. You can catch it out but you have to be doing something stupid or trying very hard.
In gear acceleration is fab. Especially 2nd which will take you from walking pace to license losing.
Related to that it'll pull top gear from ~30mph up to 150mph
And some more bad things:
It's not particularly revvy. I don't bother going north of 5k much because there is little point. It will spin up to 6.5k though fine but I mostly short shift. It's not diesel like though as there is a very wide torque spread (and as previously it's not a laggy diesel POS).
Despite being turbocharged you'd stuggle to notice, it's not laggy. You can catch it out but you have to be doing something stupid or trying very hard.
In gear acceleration is fab. Especially 2nd which will take you from walking pace to license losing.
Related to that it'll pull top gear from ~30mph up to 150mph
And some more bad things:
It's not particularly revvy. I don't bother going north of 5k much because there is little point. It will spin up to 6.5k though fine but I mostly short shift. It's not diesel like though as there is a very wide torque spread (and as previously it's not a laggy diesel POS).
Wow, it's nice to see all the effort people are putting into replying. Things I have to consider are, I am going to have children in this car someday. I know the ST isn't a bad place for a child but the mondeo is undoubtably better. I also like the interior of the Mondeo, I'd get the one with the sat nav and hopefully as many gizmos as possible. The ST doesn't seem to have anything you wouldn't find in a corsa of the same age other than a turbo gauge... Some ST's don't even have leather seats, they just look like coloured covers you put over regular seats.
Iv never had a turbo petrol, if I remapped the Mondeo, what would it feel like accelerating? Being used to diesels now I'd expect a little woosh from the turbo at least from a 2.5... Or am I only going to get that from the ST?
I need teaching!!!
Iv never had a turbo petrol, if I remapped the Mondeo, what would it feel like accelerating? Being used to diesels now I'd expect a little woosh from the turbo at least from a 2.5... Or am I only going to get that from the ST?
I need teaching!!!
It's not very turbo like.
Our MPS is more 'classic' turbo, bit of shove, hint of lag and then "woooooooooooosh".
The 2.5T is just relentless "shove", "diesel like" in the torque except it doesn't run out but goes up to 4.5k. Basically it's got the same peak torque as the Diesel but twice as wide and it's geared lower so you get more torque at the wheels.
I really like mine and I'm missing it like mad atm (I have a fscking diesel Rav4 while it's at the body shop having someones parking error sorted).
Our MPS is more 'classic' turbo, bit of shove, hint of lag and then "woooooooooooosh".
The 2.5T is just relentless "shove", "diesel like" in the torque except it doesn't run out but goes up to 4.5k. Basically it's got the same peak torque as the Diesel but twice as wide and it's geared lower so you get more torque at the wheels.
I really like mine and I'm missing it like mad atm (I have a fscking diesel Rav4 while it's at the body shop having someones parking error sorted).
It depends on what you want really, you don't sound like really know whether you want a performance car or a dad wagon. The ST is definitely a cruiser hatch, they are comfortable and quite refined (too much, imo) but they're not that quick or nimble, they are a heavy car. A remap can give them a bit more oomph, but the clutches can't take too much power before they begin to slip.
The Mondeo, despite the engine, is not a car engineered for driving hard. It's a comfortable, low-key dad car. That said, your fascination with leather seats and sat navs makes me think you aren't really looking for a fast car to drive quickly. You really need to decide what it is you want from a car, as despite sharing engines, these two cars aren't really offering the same thing.
The Mondeo, despite the engine, is not a car engineered for driving hard. It's a comfortable, low-key dad car. That said, your fascination with leather seats and sat navs makes me think you aren't really looking for a fast car to drive quickly. You really need to decide what it is you want from a car, as despite sharing engines, these two cars aren't really offering the same thing.
It's not like a massive deal about the sat nav or the leather seats but it's more the fact of, if I'm going to spend up to 6k I might aswell get some gubbins. The focus ST is nicer to look at but inside it just seems the same as my girlfriends 1.8 zetec and that is what I don't like. I know the mondeo isn't a speed machine or a rally car and it certainly isn't for boy racers but I want to go for comfortable, fun, reliable and fast when I want it to be. Surely (looking at stats) once the Mondeo is remapped, it will be comparable in speed to the ST (standard) that's what I want. I want someone to say yes to that.
It is a very nice car but it's no sports car.
It's always going to suffer in comparison to the Focus ST due to weight and size and while yes you could modify it to be as quick as an Focus ST but the same money would make the Focus much quicker.
In all honesty while I do really like mine if the Focus ST Estate could tow I'd have gone for one of them instead (or the hatch version and a top box).
It's always going to suffer in comparison to the Focus ST due to weight and size and while yes you could modify it to be as quick as an Focus ST but the same money would make the Focus much quicker.
In all honesty while I do really like mine if the Focus ST Estate could tow I'd have gone for one of them instead (or the hatch version and a top box).
I have to say that I've found the more recent 2.5 "T5" engine with 225bhp a bit limp and disappointing in comparison to the older 2.3 T5 with 250bhp in my decade old V70. Try before you buy and decide if it's worth the tragic fuel economy (again seemingly worse than the older engine) and VED bill.
A brief review I wrote on another forum. My other car at the time was a mapped 2.2 TDCi. Miss the 2.5T it pulled very well with the bluefin remap.
Engine - Christ, this made the car epic. Smooth and quiet but had proper urgency. First gear was rubbish though, far too limited to have any fun. Second and Third it absolutely flew. Third gear at 70 on the motorway it would leave the majority of cars with ease. Overtaking was so effortless it was laughable. Where in the TDCi you would take 1-2 cars in the 2.5 you could take 4-5 no problem. It just pulled and pulled and before you knew it you were in 3 figures. I know there is a lot of talk about petrol vs diesel on this forum but seriously this car was so much faster than the 2.2 Mk3 I have - you couldn't even put them in the same league. Even compared to the ST220 it was miles ahead once on the move. This came from the turbo which provides power right over a larger rev range.
With bluefin the 2.5t will destroy a ST220...
2000rpm - 60 vs 90bhp (+30)
3000rpm - 100 vs 165bhp (+65!!)
4000rpm - 140 vs 220bhp (+80!!)
5000rpm - 190 vs 250bhp (+60!!)
6000rpm - 230 vs 260bhp (+30)
Seriously, forced induction is the way forward
The cars downfall was that you couldn't hear it enough. Seriously, under 4k the engine was barely audiable. Made it quite hard to drive as it had a lot of shove low down in the rev range and would pick up speed without you hardly noticing. Was wierd having the seat shove you in the back and no noise to tell you why. Also, weighing in at just under 1.6 tons it is a heavy car which affects the performance. I wouldn't mind getting a Focus ST at some point, they must be silly quick once fettled with. I will miss the mid range poke and outright grunt. Was fun to leave tailgaters miles behind once a NSL came up in a standard looking Mondeo. I'll never forget the look of astonishment we got from some lads in a halfords spec Saxo when they got alongside us at the lights and saw that a 5ft girl in a Mondeo had just effortlessly left them for dead.
Gearbox - This is where the car scored low in my opinion. My GF liked it as it was easy to change and had a light clutch but I hated the gearbox. Lots of slack going from gear to gear and everything was too far over to the right. Made for sloppy gearchanges which is never a good thing when pressing on. I once even dropped it to 2nd instead of 4th on the motorway it was that bad. Mk3 gearbox is so much more precise.
Ride / Comfort - Even with the sports suspension the car rode well. Pothole "knock" is a lot quieter on the mk4 than on the mk3. Road noise is also majorly down. At low speeds tyre noise is more than the Mk3 but once over 30 that seems to dissapear.
Handling - Strange topic this one and to be honest I didn't like the Mk4 anywhere near as much as the Mk3 for going down anything other than a A road / Motorway. It just felt a little too big and the handling was unpredictable. I found myself entering corners faster than the car could go round due to the surge the engine provided and the refinement of the car. Sometimes I didn't really feel fully in control which is never a good thing in a car weighing 1.6 tons. I'll be honest and say that the ESP saved this car on more than one occasion however chassis handled the power well with no torque steer whatsoever. I don't get why some people have problems? You could literally take your hands off the wheel and nail it in 2nd and the car would track absolutely straight. On rough roads you were well aware of all that power going through the front wheels though. Full bore third gear overtakes on roads anything less than smooth and you had to have both hands clamped on the wheel to keep the car in the right direction. Traction was fine in the dry but a problem in the wet in 2nd and 3rd. Anything other than half throttle and it'd just light the wheels up. Similar situation if you didn't have the wheels turned dead straight too. Anything that high powered either requires 4wd or a quaife to allow it to put the power down at low speeds or with steering lock on.
Brakes - IMO these are too light compared to the Mk3. Makes heel and toe much more difficult. However the majoity of people like a light brake pedal and thats the way all cars are going so maybe unfair criticism. They pulled up well however I'd love to know how to turn off the hazard light emergency brake function or make it less sensitive. You'd overtake someone then brake for a roundabout and the stupid hazards would come on. Being the same size as the Mk3 they are plenty big enough for my driving. Anyone who overheats 300mm vented discs on the road must be either driving like an absolute lunatic or very brake heavy.
Equipment - These cars is fully loaded. Seriously you cannot ask for many more gadgets. Sat nav works well and looks smart so if you are on the look out for one make sure you spec this. Some people complain about the air con however I found it more than adequate. Seats are comfortable yet supportive should you want to chuck it around a bit. A big failing of my Mk3 is that if you try and corner the seat base tends to collapse on the sides making it difficult to drive quickly. No such thing in the Mk4. I'm not very heavy either so I'd hate to think what the Mk3 seat is like with a bit more weight on it.
Looks - I liked the sleeper look with hidden exhausts and just the spoiler on the back as part of the sports pack. Suprised a few tailgaters when a NSL came up.
Overall - I'd say the 2.5T is a fantastic car for someone that wants a powerful cruiser. Don't buy it though if you enjoy driving down A and B roads. Its simply too big and becomes unmanageable at speed. The engine is effortless however far too refined in this setup to have much fun with. As with the majority of turbo cars it likes to change up early and you feel as if you are missing out by changing up late. In the end it had to go, 20mpg and £30 for 100 miles was crazy! Also I'd find myself driving it like a nutter even on the daily commute. Power was just too easily accessible. You'd overtake one car and the car once far in the distance was easily reached with a little more gas and you'd end up doing silly speeds without even realising.
Engine - Christ, this made the car epic. Smooth and quiet but had proper urgency. First gear was rubbish though, far too limited to have any fun. Second and Third it absolutely flew. Third gear at 70 on the motorway it would leave the majority of cars with ease. Overtaking was so effortless it was laughable. Where in the TDCi you would take 1-2 cars in the 2.5 you could take 4-5 no problem. It just pulled and pulled and before you knew it you were in 3 figures. I know there is a lot of talk about petrol vs diesel on this forum but seriously this car was so much faster than the 2.2 Mk3 I have - you couldn't even put them in the same league. Even compared to the ST220 it was miles ahead once on the move. This came from the turbo which provides power right over a larger rev range.
With bluefin the 2.5t will destroy a ST220...
2000rpm - 60 vs 90bhp (+30)
3000rpm - 100 vs 165bhp (+65!!)
4000rpm - 140 vs 220bhp (+80!!)
5000rpm - 190 vs 250bhp (+60!!)
6000rpm - 230 vs 260bhp (+30)
Seriously, forced induction is the way forward
The cars downfall was that you couldn't hear it enough. Seriously, under 4k the engine was barely audiable. Made it quite hard to drive as it had a lot of shove low down in the rev range and would pick up speed without you hardly noticing. Was wierd having the seat shove you in the back and no noise to tell you why. Also, weighing in at just under 1.6 tons it is a heavy car which affects the performance. I wouldn't mind getting a Focus ST at some point, they must be silly quick once fettled with. I will miss the mid range poke and outright grunt. Was fun to leave tailgaters miles behind once a NSL came up in a standard looking Mondeo. I'll never forget the look of astonishment we got from some lads in a halfords spec Saxo when they got alongside us at the lights and saw that a 5ft girl in a Mondeo had just effortlessly left them for dead.
Gearbox - This is where the car scored low in my opinion. My GF liked it as it was easy to change and had a light clutch but I hated the gearbox. Lots of slack going from gear to gear and everything was too far over to the right. Made for sloppy gearchanges which is never a good thing when pressing on. I once even dropped it to 2nd instead of 4th on the motorway it was that bad. Mk3 gearbox is so much more precise.
Ride / Comfort - Even with the sports suspension the car rode well. Pothole "knock" is a lot quieter on the mk4 than on the mk3. Road noise is also majorly down. At low speeds tyre noise is more than the Mk3 but once over 30 that seems to dissapear.
Handling - Strange topic this one and to be honest I didn't like the Mk4 anywhere near as much as the Mk3 for going down anything other than a A road / Motorway. It just felt a little too big and the handling was unpredictable. I found myself entering corners faster than the car could go round due to the surge the engine provided and the refinement of the car. Sometimes I didn't really feel fully in control which is never a good thing in a car weighing 1.6 tons. I'll be honest and say that the ESP saved this car on more than one occasion however chassis handled the power well with no torque steer whatsoever. I don't get why some people have problems? You could literally take your hands off the wheel and nail it in 2nd and the car would track absolutely straight. On rough roads you were well aware of all that power going through the front wheels though. Full bore third gear overtakes on roads anything less than smooth and you had to have both hands clamped on the wheel to keep the car in the right direction. Traction was fine in the dry but a problem in the wet in 2nd and 3rd. Anything other than half throttle and it'd just light the wheels up. Similar situation if you didn't have the wheels turned dead straight too. Anything that high powered either requires 4wd or a quaife to allow it to put the power down at low speeds or with steering lock on.
Brakes - IMO these are too light compared to the Mk3. Makes heel and toe much more difficult. However the majoity of people like a light brake pedal and thats the way all cars are going so maybe unfair criticism. They pulled up well however I'd love to know how to turn off the hazard light emergency brake function or make it less sensitive. You'd overtake someone then brake for a roundabout and the stupid hazards would come on. Being the same size as the Mk3 they are plenty big enough for my driving. Anyone who overheats 300mm vented discs on the road must be either driving like an absolute lunatic or very brake heavy.
Equipment - These cars is fully loaded. Seriously you cannot ask for many more gadgets. Sat nav works well and looks smart so if you are on the look out for one make sure you spec this. Some people complain about the air con however I found it more than adequate. Seats are comfortable yet supportive should you want to chuck it around a bit. A big failing of my Mk3 is that if you try and corner the seat base tends to collapse on the sides making it difficult to drive quickly. No such thing in the Mk4. I'm not very heavy either so I'd hate to think what the Mk3 seat is like with a bit more weight on it.
Looks - I liked the sleeper look with hidden exhausts and just the spoiler on the back as part of the sports pack. Suprised a few tailgaters when a NSL came up.
Overall - I'd say the 2.5T is a fantastic car for someone that wants a powerful cruiser. Don't buy it though if you enjoy driving down A and B roads. Its simply too big and becomes unmanageable at speed. The engine is effortless however far too refined in this setup to have much fun with. As with the majority of turbo cars it likes to change up early and you feel as if you are missing out by changing up late. In the end it had to go, 20mpg and £30 for 100 miles was crazy! Also I'd find myself driving it like a nutter even on the daily commute. Power was just too easily accessible. You'd overtake one car and the car once far in the distance was easily reached with a little more gas and you'd end up doing silly speeds without even realising.
Jon999 said:
The cars downfall was that you couldn't hear it enough. Seriously, under 4k the engine was barely audiable. Made it quite hard to drive as it had a lot of shove low down in the rev range and would pick up speed without you hardly noticing. Was wierd having the seat shove you in the back and no noise to tell you why.
As it's been really nice I've been driving round in mine with the windows down quite a lot recently so I can hear it... I took driving with the windows down to notice that it even does the full dump valve "pssssssssssssssst". Just really really quietly. Anyway. I think the main difference between the Focus ST and Mondeo Turbo (it says Mondeo Titanium X Turbo on my V5
) is that the Focus has a noise generator.Mondeo Turbo
Focus ST
See that tube to the offside of the Focus engine bay (LHS in the photos) with the corrugated section towards the bulkhead? That is the noise generator and without it the Mondeo is very much muted in comparison.
I'm quite seriously tempted to see if I can get the Focus noise generator to fit mine.
You should try find a S60 or V70 2.4 T5 instead.
Stronger engine as it doesn't crack liners, big K24 turbo from the 'R and 320hp from a simple remap..
It's only held back by it's injectors at that! If you drop in a IC which you can get for around £250 from KL Racing and the injectors you can have 360+
They're cheaper than the Mondeos, more rare and go under the radar too.
Stronger engine as it doesn't crack liners, big K24 turbo from the 'R and 320hp from a simple remap..
It's only held back by it's injectors at that! If you drop in a IC which you can get for around £250 from KL Racing and the injectors you can have 360+
They're cheaper than the Mondeos, more rare and go under the radar too.
Megaflow said:
I don't think the noise generator has much to do with it TBH. My old S40 T5 didn't have that fitted and is louder than the Mondeo, despite having a much heavily insulated bulkhead as well, oddly.
I'm going with the reports from the Focus ST owners that theirs sounds very muted and quiet without it.A colleague at work has a Focus ST, I'm going to see if I can persuade him to let me disconnect it and see the difference myself and so if it would be worth trying to fit.
Also the difference in noise is possibly due to the amount of noise deadening on the bonnet, I've heard of people removing that to make it louder.
Trouble with an induction kit is the same as a noisy exhaust, it's making noise all the time and to make enough noise internally has to be quite loud externally. Plus the K&N and foam ones don't actually filter that well so they're not that good for the engine.
The noise generator has the advantage that it only makes noise when you put your foot down and at other times is quiet. It isn't a sports car and tbh I don't actually wan't it to make lots of noise, just a tiny bit.
philmots said:
You should try find a S60 or V70 2.4 T5 instead.
Stronger engine as it doesn't crack liners, big K24 turbo from the 'R and 320hp from a simple remap..
It's only held back by it's injectors at that! If you drop in a IC which you can get for around £250 from KL Racing and the injectors you can have 360+
They're cheaper than the Mondeos, more rare and go under the radar too.
After having a mk2.5 ST i can't disagree with this really. Constant fear of cracking liners and general shoddy build quality ruined it for me a bit.Stronger engine as it doesn't crack liners, big K24 turbo from the 'R and 320hp from a simple remap..
It's only held back by it's injectors at that! If you drop in a IC which you can get for around £250 from KL Racing and the injectors you can have 360+
They're cheaper than the Mondeos, more rare and go under the radar too.
S40 can be a bit of a sleeper though!
KarlMac said:
philmots said:
You should try find a S60 or V70 2.4 T5 instead.
Stronger engine as it doesn't crack liners, big K24 turbo from the 'R and 320hp from a simple remap..
It's only held back by it's injectors at that! If you drop in a IC which you can get for around £250 from KL Racing and the injectors you can have 360+
They're cheaper than the Mondeos, more rare and go under the radar too.
After having a mk2.5 ST i can't disagree with this really. Constant fear of cracking liners and general shoddy build quality ruined it for me a bit.Stronger engine as it doesn't crack liners, big K24 turbo from the 'R and 320hp from a simple remap..
It's only held back by it's injectors at that! If you drop in a IC which you can get for around £250 from KL Racing and the injectors you can have 360+
They're cheaper than the Mondeos, more rare and go under the radar too.
S40 can be a bit of a sleeper though!
Mine was comfortably quicker than the Focus ST around track and I have given more than one RS a run for its money.
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