Diesel users to pay £20 to enter London

[Ian974]

POORCARDEALER said:

Get the technology into a 15K car and it starts making sense.

Well a used 2011 Nissan leaf for £11k states around 120 miles range, and Tesla states around 250 for the model s which is around £80k.
Considering practical commercial electric cars have only been available for the last few years, I don't think its too unreasonable to expect this to need a little time to improve.
Its still more or less the beginning of a development process (granted, with a lot of knowledge at the start of the development). The first commercial electric cars were never going to have a 300 mile range with a 5 minute recharge time for the price of a 1.0 clio, any more than the first petrol and diesel cars were going to achieve 60 mpg while meeting euro 5 emissions regulations.

[R1-Jay]

How would all this affect our business?

we have a few vans that have to access our place of work in london. We install fire alarms so sites vary.

Normally have 1 or 2 full transit vans carrying materials and tools, so public transport is not an option and neither is electric vans as the journey is normally 60 miles each way

guess we will just have to swallow the price increase if they come in

[anonymous-user]

2020 - what's the point of talking about it . There will be a few elections before then and the reality will be something else no doubt...

[DiscoColin]

ORD said:

stuttgartmetal said:

Cabs will be all electric by 2020

Not a chance in hell of that.

Not all, but I reckon that some may well be. Tesla claim that they will have an equivalent model (range wise) to the S soon at a £30k price point. That is actually less than the cost of a London taxi (£35-40k), so if someone puts that drive train or something like it into a chassis that can take a wheelchair (are you listening LTI and Mercedes) at a similar price then suddenly it actually is viable. Now - it would take sufficient Tesla "Supercharger" capacity to quick charge every electric twice a day by my reckoning for this to be viable, but... It might work. Moreover, savings in fuel costs would mean that there is a very real incentive for cabbies to dump existing vehicles and switch over as a loss leader.

I am not saying that it is hugely likely as there are a lot of IFs in there (not least one of battery life on a vehicle with as intensive use and charge cycles as a taxi), but it is not implausible that the change will at least be underway before 2020.

I can certainly see electric encroaching on the private hire/chauffeur driven/premium minicab market in that time frame - that segment is already deep into Prius and hybrid E classes and they tend to cycles their fleets at much shorter intervals than black cabs.

[Callughan]

I wonder if any motor manufacturers will challenge this, like Porsche successfully did with the proposed £25 4x4 congestion charge.

One guy at work thinks that the next thing will be that cyclist will have to licence their cycles and pay road tax.

[delboy735]

It's just another reason for me to avoid the stty at all cost.
Sorry...."city".

[regprentice]

One major issue with electric cars except for the battery life..

Where do people without a driveway plug them in? All the tenement flats, terraces etc. As soon as you run a cable from your flat window out into the street some scrote will 'trip' over it for compo.

[Laurel Green]

regprentice said:

One major issue with electric cars except for the battery life..

Where do people without a driveway plug them in? All the tenement flats, terraces etc. As soon as you run a cable from your flat window out into the street some scrote will 'trip' over it for compo.

...or 'borrow' your charge plug to charge theirs, thus flat batteries in the morning.

[HertsBiker]

Bloody annoying. Diesel pushed on us, tax advantages, then the price was jacked up. Now they tell us it's bad for everyone's health. Then petrol wil be promoted, until that gets a bad rap. Repeat endlessly while raising taxes to punish the early adopters. Well thanks a bundle. Total shower of st in charge, and to think we, or some us believe the GW nonsense.

[Pan Pan]

leigh1050 said:

I'd make it £200.00 a day nasty smelly fking things.

Edited by leigh1050 on Tuesday 29th July 19:41

Yes motor vehicles are regarded by some as evil nasty, smelly f**cking things regardless of whether
they are petrol or diesel, Thats why the Nazis used PETROL powered trucks to provide the gas they used to commit mass murder in the concentration camps (before they discovered Zyklon B)
Anyone who thinks the exhaust from any vehicle, petrol or diesel engined is harmless, are just kidding themselves.

[anonymous-user]

I always thought the ridiculously low VED on diesels was unfair on drivers of petrol cars as it's based on CO2. VED should not be measured on CO2 alone. It should vary with mileage and be calculated on other pollutants.

I don't think diesel has been pushed on anyone. People see the headline figures/benefits and buy them without looking further into the "hidden costs".

Quotation marks because the costs are not really hidden; just needs a bit of thought and maths.

Jimboka said:

2020 - what's the point of talking about it . There will be a few elections before then and the reality will be something else no doubt...

I may be thought of as cynical for saying this, but it matters not which party is put in charge of this country; the same emissions laws will be put in place. If UKIP get in, this law will be the least of our worries.

Edited by RenOHH on Tuesday 29th July 21:48

[Mr Gear]

I'm totally done with diesel, and if they banned diesel taxis and buses from cities I would celebrate. There is no reason these cannot be petrol/hybrids, and in fact, of all the vehicles on the road, these make the most sense as hybrids anyway!

This isn't just a London problem. The pollution-stink from diesels wrecks the air in smaller cities such as Winchester and York as much as it does in the capital.

Never mind CO2 and NO2... diesel pollution creates a choking stink that should have no place in 2014.

[leigh1050]

Pan Pan said:

leigh1050 said:

I'd make it £200.00 a day nasty smelly fking things.

Edited by leigh1050 on Tuesday 29th July 19:41

Yes motor vehicles are regarded by some as evil nasty, smelly f**cking things regardless of whether
they are petrol or diesel, Thats why the Nazis used PETROL powered trucks to provide the gas they used to commit mass murder in the concentration camps (before they discovered Zyklon B)
Anyone who thinks the exhaust from any vehicle, petrol or diesel engined is harmless, are just kidding themselves.

I'm not anti car,but centralLondon stinks of diesel fumes.
There are some bus's that run on Hydrogen cells.But as all the other bus's taxis vans lorrys and a lot of cars use diesel we're on a loser in London.

[aw51 121565]

Eeh, if PH had been around in 1994 there would have been a similar but more polarised discussion about the QUARG Report of that year .

QUARG (Quality of Urban Air Review Group) had a serious agenda against diesel engines and in favour of petrol engines - and was pretty soundly slapped down. How times (along with emissions controls, eg the newly-introduced Euro 1 then --> 5 even 6 nowadays) change ... Arguably - and with hindsight - it was published 20 years too early?

Good also to read (once again) the usual misconceptions and misunderstandings around the differences between diesel engines and petrol engines and ignorance of how the two types operate fundamentally differently, in this thread !

PS I was a great fan of diesel engines once (to the later '90s, say) - now they are too complicated and have a potential unreasonably high Bork Factor which ye olde worlde diesels never had .

[bennyboydurham]

The dash for diesel has been a big mistake. But it'll be hard to move away from. A diesel 5 Series even back in the 90s was a rare beast but now do an autotrader search for one that isn't a 520/525/530d and you'll probably only see single page of results. Most folk in the UK don't need a diesel car and indeed would be better off with a petrol. Sadly progressive governments have led us down this path and we have cities choked with diesel fumes. I've noticed in this hot weather having used the 'recirc' feature of my AC a lot more when stuck behind filthy buses and trucks, which seem by far the worst offenders.

[arfur daley]

I don't know why anyone wants to go to London anyway, its a load of ste.

[Schwarzi123]

The problem was always known just here in the UK our clever politicians based the car tax solely on Al Gore's CO2 invention and his global warming, climate change scam or whatever they wanna call it these days. In Germany for example the problem was known for decades and diesels are always been taxed much more because they don't just based their tax on CO2 but all the other pollution from diesels which are by far more worst for health and environment. Just another thing you can learn from the Germans.

[Pan Pan]

leigh1050 said:

Pan Pan said:

leigh1050 said:

I'd make it £200.00 a day nasty smelly fking things.

Edited by leigh1050 on Tuesday 29th July 19:41

Yes motor vehicles are regarded by some as evil nasty, smelly f**cking things regardless of whether
they are petrol or diesel, Thats why the Nazis used PETROL powered trucks to provide the gas they used to commit mass murder in the concentration camps (before they discovered Zyklon B)
Anyone who thinks the exhaust from any vehicle, petrol or diesel engined is harmless, are just kidding themselves.

I'm not anti car,but centralLondon stinks of diesel fumes.
There are some bus's that run on Hydrogen cells.But as all the other bus's taxis vans lorrys and a lot of cars use diesel we're on a loser in London.

Any congested city is going to suffer from fumes, whether from cars, buses, taxis, motor bikes, diesel electric locomotives, jet aircraft, helicopters, and yes even from thousands of homes and businesses, (and also from the millions of humans) tightly packed into the same relatively small space together. Worrying about which one is worst, is equivalent to worrying about which is going to kill you more, a bullet, arrow, bomb, or knife. the end result is the same.
When flying outside of any largish city on a clear day, it is notable how a bubble of emissions forms over all of them. But the one over London is the worst I have ever seen, easily visible from as far away as Suffolk or Southampton. This is what happens with cities, which is why I am pleased that I don't live in, or near one. The best advice I could give is, if at all possible, don't, live, work, go into London (and similar conurbations) any more than is absolutely necessary.

[ORD]

Pan Pan said:

leigh1050 said:

Pan Pan said:

leigh1050 said:

I'd make it £200.00 a day nasty smelly fking things.

Edited by leigh1050 on Tuesday 29th July 19:41

Yes motor vehicles are regarded by some as evil nasty, smelly f**cking things regardless of whether
they are petrol or diesel, Thats why the Nazis used PETROL powered trucks to provide the gas they used to commit mass murder in the concentration camps (before they discovered Zyklon B)
Anyone who thinks the exhaust from any vehicle, petrol or diesel engined is harmless, are just kidding themselves.

I'm not anti car,but centralLondon stinks of diesel fumes.
There are some bus's that run on Hydrogen cells.But as all the other bus's taxis vans lorrys and a lot of cars use diesel we're on a loser in London.

Any congested city is going to suffer from fumes, whether from cars, buses, taxis, motor bikes, diesel electric locomotives, jet aircraft, helicopters, and yes even from thousands of homes and businesses, (and also from the millions of humans) tightly packed into the same relatively small space together. Worrying about which one is worst, is equivalent to worrying about which is going to kill you more, a bullet, arrow, bomb, or knife. the end result is the same.
When flying outside of any largish city on a clear day, it is notable how a bubble of emissions forms over all of them. But the one over London is the worst I have ever seen, easily visible from as far away as Suffolk or Southampton. This is what happens with cities, which is why I am pleased that I don't live in, or near one. The best advice I could give is, if at all possible, don't, live, work, go into London (and similar conurbations) any more than is absolutely necessary.

Yep. But I assume you would also advise people to be grateful to those who do live and work in London, because without them and the tax they pay you wouldn't have public services or roads on which to drive around the pleasant parts of the country.

[Pan Pan]

ORD said:

Pan Pan said:

leigh1050 said:

Pan Pan said:

leigh1050 said:

I'd make it £200.00 a day nasty smelly fking things.

Edited by leigh1050 on Tuesday 29th July 19:41

Yes motor vehicles are regarded by some as evil nasty, smelly f**cking things regardless of whether
they are petrol or diesel, Thats why the Nazis used PETROL powered trucks to provide the gas they used to commit mass murder in the concentration camps (before they discovered Zyklon B)
Anyone who thinks the exhaust from any vehicle, petrol or diesel engined is harmless, are just kidding themselves.

I'm not anti car,but centralLondon stinks of diesel fumes.
There are some bus's that run on Hydrogen cells.But as all the other bus's taxis vans lorrys and a lot of cars use diesel we're on a loser in London.

Any congested city is going to suffer from fumes, whether from cars, buses, taxis, motor bikes, diesel electric locomotives, jet aircraft, helicopters, and yes even from thousands of homes and businesses, (and also from the millions of humans) tightly packed into the same relatively small space together. Worrying about which one is worst, is equivalent to worrying about which is going to kill you more, a bullet, arrow, bomb, or knife. the end result is the same.
When flying outside of any largish city on a clear day, it is notable how a bubble of emissions forms over all of them. But the one over London is the worst I have ever seen, easily visible from as far away as Suffolk or Southampton. This is what happens with cities, which is why I am pleased that I don't live in, or near one. The best advice I could give is, if at all possible, don't, live, work, go into London (and similar conurbations) any more than is absolutely necessary.

Yep. But I assume you would also advise people to be grateful to those who do live and work in London, because without them and the tax they pay you wouldn't have public services or roads on which to drive around the pleasant parts of the country.

London is not the only part of the country which generates tax revenues. that is done all over the country, its just that the cash tends to get funneled into London, as that is where teh government resides.
Going into London and then complaining about the fumes, is the equivalent of jumping into a cesspit, and then complaining about smelling of sh*t.