Diesel users to pay £20 to enter London
Discussion
kambites said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Theres no evidence that an electric car will take me from yorkshire to london in the next few years on a single charge, and thats the problem.
Firstly a Tesla already can. It's a luxury car so costs luxury car money, but they claim to be releasing a ~£30k 3-series competitor with similar range in the next few years. Secondly, how many people routinely drive from Yorkshire to the centre of London and how much would it hurt the economy for them to not do so?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 29th July 08:52
So there is one high end car in the world that can do it, that 99.9% of the population cant afford.
Its not just Yorkshire, anywhere thats not within circa 90 miles.
Once the technology is available to the masses, fine, until then its not a goer...for the goverment to push diesels for many years then penalise people for owning them is a joke.
No-one said electric cars are capable of doing that sort of thing at mass-market prices. However, what proportion of cars in central London at any one time do you have have come from more than, say, 50 miles away?
I agree that pushing CO2 figures then penalising diesels is a bit off though. Diesels should never have been pushed for general personal transport in the first place, IMO.
I agree that pushing CO2 figures then penalising diesels is a bit off though. Diesels should never have been pushed for general personal transport in the first place, IMO.
Aiui the rules are more about NOx and particulate emissions than anything else. The carcinogenic thing comes from certain particulates which are predominantly from large diesel engines under heavy load particularly when starting from rest. Eg bus leaving a stop or lorry in heavy traffic.
However aren't petrol engines also producing carcinogenic particles except they are so small that they aren't measured?
Not convinced this, when it gets rolled out to other cities, as it will, won't just bean abuse of facts Iin order to punish people who want/have to use their own transport and give lots of wonga for politicians to waste.
London is a special case compared to other cities in that, normally, there is a viable and accessible public transport system. Out in the sticks this is not always the case and what public transport there is consists of old knackered buses past their prime. For example we get hand downs no longer fit for service by EYMS. Knackered doesn't even get close.
However aren't petrol engines also producing carcinogenic particles except they are so small that they aren't measured?
Not convinced this, when it gets rolled out to other cities, as it will, won't just bean abuse of facts Iin order to punish people who want/have to use their own transport and give lots of wonga for politicians to waste.
London is a special case compared to other cities in that, normally, there is a viable and accessible public transport system. Out in the sticks this is not always the case and what public transport there is consists of old knackered buses past their prime. For example we get hand downs no longer fit for service by EYMS. Knackered doesn't even get close.
Personally I'd like to see the pedestrianization of large sections of the City with lots of new, safe, cycle ways and a blanket 20 limit.
I'd also like to see black cabs being replaced my all electric within 6 years and buses to go the same way.
I'd also like an app on my phone that showed me where all the buses are, how full they are and plotted my routes to use them better.
While I'm on my soap box, lets modernise the underground and get it working for London, not the unions and get some AC in there and clean it up.
Driving in London is miserable, getting around on public transport need not be.
I'd also like to see black cabs being replaced my all electric within 6 years and buses to go the same way.
I'd also like an app on my phone that showed me where all the buses are, how full they are and plotted my routes to use them better.
While I'm on my soap box, lets modernise the underground and get it working for London, not the unions and get some AC in there and clean it up.
Driving in London is miserable, getting around on public transport need not be.
POORCARDEALER said:
What is worrying, will we be looking back on diesels in 20 years time in the same way we look at asbestos etc today....
I think we'll ultimately look back on all internal combustion engines for personal transport and wonder why we stuck with them for so long, although perhaps not that soon - I don't think anything is really going to be able to replace ICEs for certain specialist types of personal transport in our lifetimes. I suspect the meteoric rise of diesel engines for personal cars will be looked at as a rather unpleasant oddity that came about due to a flawed taxation regime. POORCARDEALER said:
Eh?
So there is one high end car in the world that can do it, that 99.9% of the population cant afford.
Its not just Yorkshire, anywhere thats not within circa 90 miles.
Once the technology is available to the masses, fine, until then its not a goer...for the goverment to push diesels for many years then penalise people for owning them is a joke.
I do the run into London from Norwich all the time. So there is one high end car in the world that can do it, that 99.9% of the population cant afford.
Its not just Yorkshire, anywhere thats not within circa 90 miles.
Once the technology is available to the masses, fine, until then its not a goer...for the goverment to push diesels for many years then penalise people for owning them is a joke.
I drive, which is pointless.
It takes me 2 hours 20 mins to get to Cavendish Square, in the ML it costs me £50 in fuel, £11 in CC charges and then £24 for 3 hours parking, it then takes me around 2h40 minutes to get home again.
I can get on the train, which is a 5 minute walk from my house, at 9.16am and be at Bond Street for 11.45am in time for my 12 appointment, and then get back on the 3.16 train and walk in my door by 5.20pm.
This costs me £40.70 or £87 first class.
But I like driving, being in my car with my music etc.
If the extra £20 a day charge came into play I would start using the train.
But they need to make this a charge for those outside London only for the first 10 years or so to make it fair.
heebeegeetee said:
strummerville said:
It amuses me that we are all incentivised financially to drive supposed lower CO2 emitting, but more carcinogenic diesels. As one wag on here said a while ago:
"Diesel is the new asbestos. We know it's bad for your health, but choose to ignore it".
This is the thinking that I just can not understand. After 100 years of use, it has been decided that diesel is carcinogenic based on conditions in people who have worked underground with diesel engines for 30 years."Diesel is the new asbestos. We know it's bad for your health, but choose to ignore it".
Meantime highly carcinogenic substances have been added to petrol to get the fuel to work well in internal combustion engines. Before the carcinogenic substances were added (or as well as, possibly) tetra-ethyl lead was added, another substance known to be highly injurious to human health.
If you were going to label a fuel as carcinogenic, why would you not pick the fuel known to be carcinogenic right from the moment it was used? Why would you pick the fuel that has taken 100 years to be decided whether or not the fuel is carcinogenic?
If you were going to use asbestos as an analogy, why would you not pick the fuel that has always been known to be injurious over human health, over the fuel that has had 100 years debate on the subject?
Take a look at the Euro emmisions standards, currently Euro 5 diseasals are allowed 0.18 g/km of NOx, in comparison Petrols are allowed 0.06 g/km. They're allowed 3x already but in real terms while petrol cars have improved with the Euro standards there have been no improvements in NOx for ~20 years despite the ever tighter Euro regulations.
Good luck for diesels come Euro 6 though. That's going to be very complicated and expensive to get them to pass.
Edited by Fastdruid on Tuesday 29th July 09:13
POORCARDEALER said:
Theres no evidence that an electric car will take me from yorkshire to london in the next few years on a single charge, and thats the problem.
For 3 of the 4 drivers in our family, an electric car would be fine 99%, if not 100% of the time.The problem is that people have it in their minds that they might need to suddenly drive a long distance so they want that capability to be always available.
POORCARDEALER said:
I think once the battery technology is up to spec then maybe, but its nowhere near at the minute
Average UK commute by car is less than 9 miles a day. This means the vast majority of car journeys in the UK can be done by even the crappest EV. I think the key with London is to ascertain just who is in the cars in the centre of Town and where have they come from?
Are they actually locals or long distance commuters? You look at the inner suburbs of Zone 1&2 and a lot of it will be but I'm not sure when you look at traffic in the heart that it is. There are still a lot of people from outside London who drive in or through every day. But regardless of this, London has the best public transport network on the planet. No other city has so many pockets so interconnected. So taxing PLGs out isn't the end of the world. They are more a luxury than a necessity.
But, if we look at diesel then surely the big offenders are minicabs, buses, trucks, coaches and black cabs? As buses carry many people then their emissions per capita is going to be low but minicabs and black cabs still only transport one person for the most part and have to be the biggest offenders.
I would say that the more logical solution is instead of pushing the problem directly onto private citizens in terms of this route it is smarter to force taxis of all types to be electric when operating in the urban heart.
kambites said:
POORCARDEALER said:
What is worrying, will we be looking back on diesels in 20 years time in the same way we look at asbestos etc today....
I think we'll ultimately look back on all internal combustion engines for personal transport and wonder why we stuck with them for so long, although perhaps not that soon. I suspect the meteoric rise of diesel engines for personal cars will be looked at as a rather unpleasant oddity that came about due to a flawed taxation regime. DonkeyApple said:
POORCARDEALER said:
I think once the battery technology is up to spec then maybe, but its nowhere near at the minute
Average UK commute by car is less than 9 miles a day. This means the vast majority of car journeys in the UK can be done by even the crappest EV. I think the key with London is to ascertain just who is in the cars in the centre of Town and where have they come from?
Are they actually locals or long distance commuters? You look at the inner suburbs of Zone 1&2 and a lot of it will be but I'm not sure when you look at traffic in the heart that it is. There are still a lot of people from outside London who drive in or through every day. But regardless of this, London has the best public transport network on the planet. No other city has so many pockets so interconnected. So taxing PLGs out isn't the end of the world. They are more a luxury than a necessity.
But, if we look at diesel then surely the big offenders are minicabs, buses, trucks, coaches and black cabs? As buses carry many people then their emissions per capita is going to be low but minicabs and black cabs still only transport one person for the most part and have to be the biggest offenders.
I would say that the more logical solution is instead of pushing the problem directly onto private citizens in terms of this route it is smarter to force taxis of all types to be electric when operating in the urban heart.
moreflaps said:
What I don't understand is how can the particulates be so high if vehicles are required to have DPF filters?
I think particulate filters only work if cars are regularly doing long journeys to allow them to "recharge". Many cars that get driven in cities do not do this so their filters don't work properly. Also, I assume particulate filters can only capture particulates above a certain size? It's not so much the range of electric vehicles, specially with these long-range Telsas.. It's the ball ache of charging them.
When you're getting low on fuel in a car it takes around 5 minutes to fill it up for another ~500 miles, something you can do almost anywhere.
Electric cars you can't recharge as easily, a lot less charging points and it takes a lot longer. That's the issue IMO
When you're getting low on fuel in a car it takes around 5 minutes to fill it up for another ~500 miles, something you can do almost anywhere.
Electric cars you can't recharge as easily, a lot less charging points and it takes a lot longer. That's the issue IMO
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff