RE: Jag XE: 75 per cent aluminium and over 75mpg
Discussion
wemorgan said:
ORD said:
Not sure the customers actually want inline 4s - they get what they are offered as regard engines, and the stupid obsession with CO2 and nonsense official mpg figures skews production decisions.
If customers are obsessed with mpg, then most likely customers are asking for low mg cars = low cylinder, hybrids etc.IMHO if customers feel OEM are forcing a product on them, then they'll likely reject it.
Max_Torque said:
Urban Sports said:
chungasarnies said:
Limpet said:
the weakest 3-series in a long time (based on 2 years and 46k in an F30, not the gushing reviews)
Go on then - why is it so much worse than before? Those I know with 320EDs say they're great (this is not to say I don't hope the XE ups the game)I'd say the F30 is the most progress they've made between generations.
Edited by Urban Sports on Tuesday 29th July 20:09
(1) The ride is very iffy indeed (not harsh, just wallowy and not confidence-inspiring) in anything but motorway driving.
(2) The quality of the interior materials is very patchy - sometimes good; sometimes very poor (see, e.g. the really cheap and nasty feel of the gear stick).
(3) The engine is very noisy, and everyone supposedly wants "refinement".
I think a lot (maybe 30%?) of drivers would notice and appreciate the difference between a 320d and something with a decent suspension set up (e.g. a 3 series on the M Sport suspension or, I hope, the new Jag).
MonkeySpanker said:
It's called LEGISLATION.....Euro 6 emissions laws are fairly strict with CO2 & NOx limits (amongst other things), just wait for Euro 7
This is the critical thing here. To some extent, it doesn't really matter what the customer wants - the manufacturers just have to deal with the legislation and squeak whatever they can through the rules.Bigger engines simply aren't as efficient - and I don't mean that in terms of fuel economy only. When you take into account emissions (specifically particulates) then your only real option is to downsize and achieve the same performance figures with a smaller engine that then meets the emissions regulations.
High CO2 cars just mean that the OEMs end up with a big ass fine in a few years if their fleet average CO2 is not beneath the target set by the EU.
Customer requirement is secondary to getting a vehicle that an OEM can actually sell in a market. After all, customers can't buy what can't be sold!
ORD said:
I think the car market is an exception to that rule. How else can one explain the number of people who buy diesel cars to pop to and from the shops? The chap selling the car knows full well that it is wholly inappropriate product for the buyer, but the buyer has no clue and takes what he is told is the right car for him.
The same is true of "sporty" 4-cyl cars. The manufacturers crank up the turbos to get impressive pub bore performance figures and cheat the official mpg figures then sell the car as sporty and efficient. In the real world, it is neither because it sounds like crap, is dull as dishwater to drive and gets pretty much the same fuel efficiency as an NA 6 cyl. It will also go pop in about half the time it takes a 6 cyl to wear out, but nobody mentions that.
Audi and BMW could sell a turd on a stick to most punters, to be honest.
Hear, hear. The same is true of "sporty" 4-cyl cars. The manufacturers crank up the turbos to get impressive pub bore performance figures and cheat the official mpg figures then sell the car as sporty and efficient. In the real world, it is neither because it sounds like crap, is dull as dishwater to drive and gets pretty much the same fuel efficiency as an NA 6 cyl. It will also go pop in about half the time it takes a 6 cyl to wear out, but nobody mentions that.
Audi and BMW could sell a turd on a stick to most punters, to be honest.
Personally, as a private buyer, I wouldn't buy a 4-pot 3-Series, XE or other 4-cylinder rival with my own money unless I was doing the kind of mileage where it would be absolutely, completely necessary to count every last MPG.
The realities of the marketplace though mean that all the fleet sales, bean counting, "greenwashing" etc. is ruining this class of car for the enthusiast. - I wouldn't be surprised if BMW don't even offer a 6-pot 3-Series next time around and it looks like the days of being able to buy a nice-to-drive "everyday car" (as opposed to more exclusive and elusive sports cars) with the features we crave (6-pot NA petrols, manual 'boxes, handbrakes, hydraulic steering etc.) are numbered.
Punters these days want their car to look "sporty", hence the prevalence of M-Sport, S-Line etc. cars with 4-pot diesels, but don't want them to drive like what we would call a "real" sports car (partly because they don't understand cars)...hence electric steering with artificial weighting, electric handbrakes, over-servoed brakes etc. etc.
A reality check here. Most cars buyers aren't enthusiasts. OEM design high volume cars for the masses. it's what they want that matters, not what the minority enthusiast wants. Typically if you want an enthusiasts car you go down the niche / kit car route and have to accept the car is heavily compromised in other departments.
The XE will be a high volume / mass market car.
The XE will be a high volume / mass market car.
wemorgan said:
A reality check here. Most cars buyers aren't enthusiasts. OEM design high volume cars for the masses. it's what they want that matters, not what the minority enthusiast wants. Typically if you want an enthusiasts car you go down the niche / kit car route and have to accept the car is heavily compromised in other departments.
The XE will be a high volume / mass market car.
What if, as an enthusiast, you only have the space for one car that has to do it all? A 320d doesn't quite cut it, I'm afraid.The XE will be a high volume / mass market car.
Clivey said:
What if, as an enthusiast, you only have the space for one car that has to do it all? A 320d doesn't quite cut it, I'm afraid.
It's unfortunate as a minority car buyer that you have to accept your lot. It's not reasonable to expect an OEM to spend £500m to develop a car like the XE to appeal to such a small group of people. Time to think laterally and accept some compromises in the cars you buy.ORD said:
(3) The engine is very noisy, and everyone supposedly wants "refinement".
It's worth noting that for modern "Direct Injection" engines (diesel or Gasoline) there is a direct inverse relationship between Refinement (combustion noise) and Economy. In order to waste the least heat, you need to burn the fuel in the cylinder as fast as possible and at the lowest possible volume (less time for heat to escape, and smallest area of cylinder walls for it to escape to). Unfortunately, burning the fuel fast and at a low volume means a faster rate of rise of cylinder pressure, something most people will associate with the classic "diesel knock"This means that the more you push for economy, the less refined the engine becomes. One of the reasons JLR products have historically lagged behind the Germans in terms of both test cycle and real world fuel economy is that they have pushed that compromise further towards the Refinement end of the spectrum. I'd expect that to have changed dramatically for the new car............
wemorgan said:
It's unfortunate as a minority car buyer that you have to accept your lot. It's not reasonable to expect an OEM to spend £500m to develop a car like the XE to appeal to such a small group of people. Time to think laterally and accept some compromises in the cars you buy.
Or just avoid buying new cars that you consider have fallen into the "for the mainstream, not enthusiast" category. - I think I'll stick to "old" BMWs etc. for daily cars for the foreseeable future.MyCC said:
Seriously though, what happened to BMW's infamous tag line "The ultimate driving machine", they seem to have forgotten it of late.
To quote a line from Blackadder "It was b
ks'. Plus they finally realised that 99% of people couldn't care less about chassis and RWD. They liked quality and gadgets and prestige. Audi did and is doing it better and BMW are realising that their theory was flawed and so are doing more of what Audi are.Frimley111R said:
MyCC said:
Seriously though, what happened to BMW's infamous tag line "The ultimate driving machine", they seem to have forgotten it of late.
To quote a line from Blackadder "It was bks'. Plus they finally realised that 99% of people couldn't care less about chassis and RWD. They liked quality and gadgets and prestige. Audi did and is doing it better and BMW are realising that their theory was flawed and so are doing more of what Audi are.Kawasicki said:
Clivey said:
Kawasicki said:
Not all fwd cars drive like a hot hatch. "Premium driver's car"....hmmm...what about oversteer, all weather ability, eh? What about safety? Rear leg room, anyone for golf?
FWD is usually a compromise for reasons of economy. Traditionally, luxury cars have remained RWD partly to avoid that feeling of compromise. Yes, there are some great handling FWD cars but a good RWD chassis is like seeing in full colour next to black & white. Personally, I'm glad this is RWD and if in the market, wouldn't consider the FWD competition (e.g. the entry level A4s) unless there was one hell of an incentive.Oversteer? That's basically "on demand" as long as the chassis is good (no problems with the XF etc.).
All-weather ability? Fit the correct tyres; you'll be fine. There will probably be AWD versions for those who live in Siberia.
Safety? What do you mean?
Rear leg room? Most of these cars won't regularly carry adult passengers but TBH I think there'll be enough anyway. My 3-Series is fine if people aren't unusually tall or being deliberately awkward.
Why shouldn't it be RWD?
I really fancy an XE once my current car comes up for replacement and can't wait to see the full details.
I haven't seen any information about the planned transmissions and am keeping everything crossed that they offer a manual 'box, otherwise the dream is dead!
I'm also hoping that rear space is decent as the lack of room discounted the 3 Series, A4, 159 and especially the C-Class when I was last looking. I'm 6'6" and my son' who's only 11, is doing his best to catch up with me so sensible rear legroom also has to be a consideration, unfortunately.
Bring on the big reveal...
I haven't seen any information about the planned transmissions and am keeping everything crossed that they offer a manual 'box, otherwise the dream is dead!
I'm also hoping that rear space is decent as the lack of room discounted the 3 Series, A4, 159 and especially the C-Class when I was last looking. I'm 6'6" and my son' who's only 11, is doing his best to catch up with me so sensible rear legroom also has to be a consideration, unfortunately.
Bring on the big reveal...
David87 said:
The Jaguar XE is so good, Emeli Sandé is writing it a song. Yes, really. 
Really? The marketing department really think that something like this will result in conquest sales.I imagine somewhere there is a pie chart showing how her fans who currently drive a 'German' car would really buy a small Jaguar if only one was available or some nonsense like that.
KTF said:
David87 said:
The Jaguar XE is so good, Emeli Sandé is writing it a song. Yes, really.
Really? The marketing department really think that something like this will result in conquest sales.I imagine somewhere there is a pie chart showing how her fans who currently drive a 'German' car would really buy a small Jaguar if only one was available or some nonsense like that.
Max_Torque said:
Indeed. It's exactly that^^^ kind of marketing ballcocks that will mean the new Jag is NOT as good as the German opposition! Spend the money making a good car, and people will buy it. You don't need to waste money on an icecream quiffed minor throat warbling celeb to "endorse" your not-as-good-as-it-should-be version....... ;-)
I'm perplexed as to how anyone seriously thinks that Audi and BMW are untouchable in this market. I think they've cocked up fairly badly in a few respects and been let off extremely lightly by a very take motoring press.I sort of feel the same about the love-in re the Golf as the hatchback class leader. I must be the only person to have noticed that the Golf's basic petrol engines are pretty poor and that it is nothing like £5k better than the competition!
TBH I think it's just marketing that's needed. Jaguar already make great cars that are better to drive than the Germans. Even PH is full of prejudiced clowns who think Jaguars are for old people and therefore must drive poorly without ever bothering to try one.
On one hand it's their loss and it's nice that all the aholes driving badly in Audis haven't all flocked to Jaguars so I still get smiled at and let out of junctions, but on the other hand Jaguar need the volume.
It's just marketing that's needed. People are thick - even on PH. They just need it hammered through their thick skulls that Jaguar make well equipped and great handling cars that are more rewarding to drive than all the German humdrum that appears cheaper to buy but comes with church hall folding plastic seats without expensive options.
On one hand it's their loss and it's nice that all the a
holes driving badly in Audis haven't all flocked to Jaguars so I still get smiled at and let out of junctions, but on the other hand Jaguar need the volume.It's just marketing that's needed. People are thick - even on PH. They just need it hammered through their thick skulls that Jaguar make well equipped and great handling cars that are more rewarding to drive than all the German humdrum that appears cheaper to buy but comes with church hall folding plastic seats without expensive options.
jamieduff1981 said:
TBH I think it's just marketing that's needed. Jaguar already make great cars that are better to drive than the Germans.
Except, the weight of objective evidence suggests that they don't. Pretty much 95% of the time, any test of cars including Jags, BMWs, Audis, and Mercs is won by one of the germans. Almost without fail that test will finish with the words "The Jag is great to look at, but inferior to the Germans in terms of dynamics, performance, and crucially these days economics (inc BIK, Co2, Mpg etc)"Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff