RE: Jag XE: 75 per cent aluminium and over 75mpg
Discussion
Limpet said:
Just as the F-Type is up against the weakest 911 in a long time, so the XE will be up against the weakest 3-series in a long time (based on 2 years and 46k in an F30, not the gushing reviews)
If it's even half the car it promises to be, it will do well. I'm genuinely excited by this car.
Me too, I'd quite happily bin the 3er if this XE stacks up.If it's even half the car it promises to be, it will do well. I'm genuinely excited by this car.
09dfearon said:
zeppelin101 said:
What? Not in the slightest.
What you've just said is, my large executive saloon doesn't perform as well as my small executive saloon which weighs less and takes up less road space.
How is that bad for Jaguar?
Generally relevant comparisons should be between two cars in the same class. Expecting a car in the class above to be anything other than more luxurious is folly.
Currently in stock I have 3 jaguar xfs all 3 of which were part exchanged by their owners for German equivalents. 2 of the previous jag owners complained of poor Mpg, dpf problems (consistently) and one owner who was sick to the back teeth of jaguar telling him that the glove box not opening was his fault! I have owned and sold many 5 series and must say its a better all rounder also, better performance, better economy, much better reliability and better feel. This is comparing 3.0 to 3.0. The navigation/ climate system in the jaguar is distracting, slow and fiddly to use when driving and the gearbox is slow to react and numb feeling. Not saying the jaguar is bad but it really is not as good! This is very likely to be the same with the xe. I was comparing the 3 series as its a lower model and still drives better than the XF. If this was a comparison against an Xjl vs 7 series I would be much more complimentary to the jaguar as they have done a great job there! What you've just said is, my large executive saloon doesn't perform as well as my small executive saloon which weighs less and takes up less road space.
How is that bad for Jaguar?
Generally relevant comparisons should be between two cars in the same class. Expecting a car in the class above to be anything other than more luxurious is folly.
09dfearon said:
I'm dubious about this one. It has the grounds to be a great car but I cant imagine it being a great drivers car. Jags are comfortable motors but they don't yet have the driving dynamics of their German opposition. Looks great though
I'll tell Mr Cross he's got it wrong then! 
Oh no! sorry!..... I meant you.
Limpet said:
chungasarnies said:
Go on then - why is it so much worse than before? Those I know with 320EDs say they're great (this is not to say I don't hope the XE ups the game)
Floating and wallowing suspension when pushed, and excessive body roll when cornering with any degree of enthusiasm. You can specify better dampers as an option. Numb steering. Absolutely no feel whatsoever. You can specify better steering as an option.
Some woeful material quality. Silver plastic trim on centre console around the iDrive controller is worn visibly already just from things brushing it in general day to day use. Silver plastic coating on gearknob is also pitted and marked (and neither of us wear rings). You can specify better interior trim as an option. The plastic around the climate control panel creaks, and visibly moves if you even lightly press it. 80s Citroen style.
Average build quality. First creaks and squeaks started materialising from about 10,000 miles onwards.
Comically soft paint. Front of the car looks like it's done 100k+ - peppered with chips and marks.
Niggling faults - clonking front suspension, FEM body control module failed at 3 weeks old, wiring fault causing spurious bulb failure warnings, heater blower motor became noisy and the car periodically reports a headlamp levelling system failure on start up which disappears next time you cycle the ignition. No fault has ever been found.
Poor refinement - engine is plain loud, and the wind noise from the A-pillars is irritating
It does a genuine 53 mpg in mixed driving, well over 60 on a sub 80 mph motorway cruise, and performs really well for daily use. It's also very comfy with a fantastic driving position.
The E90 I had before was a far better drive though.
Edited by Limpet on Tuesday 29th July 11:03
Edited by Limpet on Tuesday 29th July 11:28
But really that's how the majority of them are used, so you can't blame them for giving what (most!) of their customers have asked for.
Never mind the XF and its competitors fuel economy debate, what will get the XE selling in volume (in the home UK market, anyway), is the size of the potential BIK tax bill for the company car user and the likely 3 year residual value for the leasing companies. Oh, and the quality of the detail within Jaguar UK's marketing proposition.
Our recent real-life example makes my point: I'm a director of a company where our MD is not a car buff. No interest. As long as it goes & stops and works he's happy. As a consequence, I get to choose our company car fleet (all of 2 on fleet, that is).
Our 3-year old M-B C-Class estate (2,1 diesel, auto, facelifted 2011 version with stop - start, etc) came to be 3 years old. Replacement time. I looked at Volvo, M-B, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Ford, Vauxhall and Land-Rover for the replacement vehicle.
BMW UK's Marketing Pack of info for the 3 series give you a most useful data table with the emissions, BIK charges, "usual" monthly lease costs, etc, all tabulated for you. Nobody else does this, at present. Indeed, I asked one salesperson what the emissions and BIK would be on his car and his eyes glazed over at the question. I surmise that this manufacturer doesn't sell much volume into the UK small business-user market, if all their staff are as ignorant..
And so, (and this is the clever BMW marketing at work) when I sat down to create a decision table for my co-director with the prices, running costs, test drive assessment in it, guess whose BIK data table was driving all the financial - comparison work?
The BMW 320ED Touring was the clear winner on 3 criteria and surprise, surprise, that's what we've now leased. There's a reason why every sales rep in Britain is seemingly in a 320ED right now and I can only respect BMW's ability to fine-tune their marketing messages to the UK company director audience - and the current UK benefit-in-kind tax rules.
As to the qualities of a 2014 320ED Touring, that's quite another discussion - we currently have a dispute with BMW running there. But, Jaguar have to market and sell in to this environment and I just hope they get the many details right that they'll need to if they are to create a winning proposition. It's not just about looks and 0-60 times. It will be about real and perceived quality, service aftercare, breakdown cover, lease rates and BIK table positions. Good luck to Jaguar; The XE is their entry-card to the top league - but it had better deliver..
Our recent real-life example makes my point: I'm a director of a company where our MD is not a car buff. No interest. As long as it goes & stops and works he's happy. As a consequence, I get to choose our company car fleet (all of 2 on fleet, that is).
Our 3-year old M-B C-Class estate (2,1 diesel, auto, facelifted 2011 version with stop - start, etc) came to be 3 years old. Replacement time. I looked at Volvo, M-B, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Ford, Vauxhall and Land-Rover for the replacement vehicle.
BMW UK's Marketing Pack of info for the 3 series give you a most useful data table with the emissions, BIK charges, "usual" monthly lease costs, etc, all tabulated for you. Nobody else does this, at present. Indeed, I asked one salesperson what the emissions and BIK would be on his car and his eyes glazed over at the question. I surmise that this manufacturer doesn't sell much volume into the UK small business-user market, if all their staff are as ignorant..
And so, (and this is the clever BMW marketing at work) when I sat down to create a decision table for my co-director with the prices, running costs, test drive assessment in it, guess whose BIK data table was driving all the financial - comparison work?
The BMW 320ED Touring was the clear winner on 3 criteria and surprise, surprise, that's what we've now leased. There's a reason why every sales rep in Britain is seemingly in a 320ED right now and I can only respect BMW's ability to fine-tune their marketing messages to the UK company director audience - and the current UK benefit-in-kind tax rules.
As to the qualities of a 2014 320ED Touring, that's quite another discussion - we currently have a dispute with BMW running there. But, Jaguar have to market and sell in to this environment and I just hope they get the many details right that they'll need to if they are to create a winning proposition. It's not just about looks and 0-60 times. It will be about real and perceived quality, service aftercare, breakdown cover, lease rates and BIK table positions. Good luck to Jaguar; The XE is their entry-card to the top league - but it had better deliver..
Limpet said:
jamieduff1981 said:
I'd choose a Mondeo over any sub-M3 BMW 3-series if paying for it with my own money.
Yep, me too.zeppelin101 said:
If you're only getting 43mpg out of any 2.0l diesel from the current crop then you're doing something wrong!
You've got to remember that if most of these will be company cars they will be driven at 150-200% of the applicable speed limit while flashing and beeping their horn. Also they will probably have plenty of usb items charging while braking erratically because they are busy on the phone. In that case they will use a lot more fuel than the rest of us who just would lie, to get to work without all the stress.09dfearon said:
Currently in stock I have 3 jaguar xfs all 3 of which were part exchanged by their owners for German equivalents. 2 of the previous jag owners complained of poor Mpg, dpf problems (consistently) and one owner who was sick to the back teeth of jaguar telling him that the glove box not opening was his fault! I have owned and sold many 5 series and must say its a better all rounder also, better performance, better economy, much better reliability and better feel. This is comparing 3.0 to 3.0. The navigation/ climate system in the jaguar is distracting, slow and fiddly to use when driving and the gearbox is slow to react and numb feeling. Not saying the jaguar is bad but it really is not as good! This is very likely to be the same with the xe. I was comparing the 3 series as its a lower model and still drives better than the XF. If this was a comparison against an Xjl vs 7 series I would be much more complimentary to the jaguar as they have done a great job there!
Interesting, while probably slightly biased on your side, I do find myself agreeing with most the complaints you listed. The sat nav is one of the worst I have ever seen and while the glove box release might have sounded like a good idea at the time, it simply doesn't work. It usually opens if you rub your hands first.I am surprised about your statement of the gearbox though. I think it is easily one of the best units of this type I have ever driven - especially compared to a Mercedes box! That said, I have no comparison with what BMW has to offer, as I only driven manual BMW's (with the exception of a 7 series many many years ago). However, most of the critics seem to confirm my personal impression on regards to the ZF gearbox.
Some redeeming features of the XF over the BMW's, or why didn't I buy a BMW and do I regret it?
Interior: matter of taste, I know. But when I was looking into buying a car, all the BMW's left a bit of a cheap plastic impression on me. Also, at the time the Jaguar felt more modern, but I don't think it has aged as well.
Breaks: my god are they good. I know few sports cars that can rival them.
Options: the sat nav in the Jaguar might be horrible, but at least they don't charge an arm an a leg for something only marginally better as an optional extra ... like so many other things ... which means that ones you have ticked all the things you think makes sitting in a traffic jam more entertaining, the BMW suddenly turns out substantially more expensive. Effectively, the XF is priced to match a nice 3 series ... but offers you a 5 series car.
Comfort: The XF is a lot more comfortable than a 5 series. Which on day to day use, given the road conditions around here, is actually more important than better handling on a track.
So what do you want? For a blast around the Highlands, I would prefer a manual 3 series over the XF - yes. To be honest, I would prefer a 1 series - shorter wheelbase, lighter, stiffer car = more fun through corners. But on an average day commuting to work and doing the shopping, the XF is so much better. And lets face it, on the few rare occasions I do find myself on a lovely empty road, I can always flip the switch and have some fun ... for a big heavy car like this, actually a lot!
jamieduff1981 said:
No offence but I don't think your opinion is worth much at all. The comfort spec diesely XFs are comfort orientated. The R and RS are driving dynamics orientated and if you didn't find them fun to drive then you're just a completely incompetent driver. The 5-series is fine but nothing special at all. I'd choose a Mondeo over any sub-M3 BMW 3-series if paying for it with my own money.
If you had read further up then you would have read that I've driven the said cars and found them great but we aren't talking about rs models here we are talking about diesel family cars and notoriously BMW do this much better. I deal with people daily who buy cars from me and anyone who has genuinely driven and owned the 2 cars also say this. Real People in Real life spending real money. This is before I go on to mention emissions, fuel consumption and performance as a package. In my opinion your opinion isn't really worth muchTheAllSeeingPie said:
You've got to remember that if most of these will be company cars they will be driven at 150-200% of the applicable speed limit while flashing and beeping their horn. Also they will probably have plenty of usb items charging while braking erratically because they are busy on the phone. In that case they will use a lot more fuel than the rest of us who just would lie, to get to work without all the stress.
A lot of people are expressing disappointment with how the F30 (new 3-Series) drives in terms of handling etc. - particularly the non "M-Sport" models without all the fancy steering and suspension boxes ticked...hopefully then, the XE gives BMW a firm boot up the arse to refocus in these areas.
As mentioned above, all 
Jaguar have to do is:
- get the CO2/BIK/Leasing figures spot on for the company car market
- make the chassis comfortable enough for British roads, whilst still being hardcore enough to satisfy the helmsmiths
- make the car as handsome as possible without being a retro pastiche, but at the same time not in your face aggressive
- and give it the reliability of a Honda with a Daewoo warranty.
Easy!
Jaguar have to do is:- get the CO2/BIK/Leasing figures spot on for the company car market
- make the chassis comfortable enough for British roads, whilst still being hardcore enough to satisfy the helmsmiths
- make the car as handsome as possible without being a retro pastiche, but at the same time not in your face aggressive
- and give it the reliability of a Honda with a Daewoo warranty.
Easy!
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