Electronic handbrakes are lethal!

[eldar]

I thought the handbrake was also an emergency brake? What happens if you apply an electronic brake at 50mph, can it be modulated?

[GetCarter]

irocfan said:

Shurv said:

Electronic handbrakes are the work of devils. I've driven cars with them, and would refuse to buy any car without a proper handbrake ( or a manual gearbox). Call me a luddite,( I've been called worse), but why feck with something that works.

if everyone looked at it that way IK Brunnel would've have had no career at all - "wooden ships work perfectly well and wood floats, metal doesn't. New fangled rubbish. Bah humbug!" not to mention Barnes Wallis, Frank Whittle among (many) others

Quite. 14 years ago I got a really hard time in this place for using a digital camera.

er...

[CB2152]

scarble said:

CB2152 said:

Really? I thought it worked because the reverse gear wouldn't turn forwards and vice versa. If it's just engine braking that does it, that's good to hear!

Sorry but
Try to imagine the kind of mechanism that'd prevent that, would your reverse gear be a great big ratchet or are engines somehow physically not able to be turned backwards? They're just a bunch of roundy-roundy and uppy downy bits, nothing to stop reverse rotation. If you've ever tried to set the timing on an engine you'll know that they easily turn in both directions. A 2 stroke will even run in reverse if you bump it backwards, so will a 4-stroke diesel for that matter, but not for long.

Best gear to use is whichever is the shortest ratio, so depends on your car, or if they're the same it doesn't really matter.
If you're facing uphill point your wheels away from the kerb and if you're facing downhill point them towards the kerb, this way if your car starts to roll it will roll into the kerb and hopefully the kerb will stop it

eta: Electronic handbrakes suck, they have zero redeeming features and should be banned. I feel for you OP and applaud you for your quick thinking and brave actions.

I can't say I ever have tried to set the timing on an engine to be honest. I'll go and sit in the corner with my Dunce's hat now

[V88Dicky]

gherkins said:

My Jaguar XF one works perfectly - I never have to think about it - it's completely intuitive, as is the gearbox. That said, other cars I've driven with them include a Renault (which was ok, but seemed hard to disengage), a Volvo (a bit slow, but not too bad) and a Merc (which was awful).

IMHO, the modern tech works if it's instinctive to use. If not, then there's something wrong.

I concur. Never had a problem with the device on our XF, or the S-Type that went before.

Roll up to a junction / traffic lights, pull the little lever up, wait. (Extra PH bonus for not blinding those behind you )

Lights change, touch the accelerator, parking brake automatically disengages. Simplicity itself.

[blank]

eldar said:

I thought the handbrake was also an emergency brake? What happens if you apply an electronic brake at 50mph, can it be modulated?

It will normally apply full brake pressure to do a controlled ABS stop.

If there is no brake pressure (say you have no fluid) then I guess it would still apply itself on the rear wheels, but would just be on or off. I've never tried that though!

[Dodsy]

I think Jaguar have this nailed. My XJR is brilliant. Pull up, pop button and the brake applies. The brake pedal moves in slightly as it does so you know its on. Then you just press the loud pedal to pull away , brake automatically releases and away you go. Or if you just want to take it off to roll forward a gentle squeeze of the accelerator pedal and it releases.

And when you turn the engine off it automatically applies the brake, again with feedback through the brake pedal.

Of course having an auto its always effectively left in gear (park) so no chance it will roll away anyway.

[s3fella]

Chris Stott said:

Muzzer79 said:

I think I'm alone in really liking my electronic handbrake.

In over 2 years and 40k miles, it's never failed and the auto-hold works perfectly.

Also, if you stop and turn the engine off, I'm pretty sure that it engages automatically.

I know a lot of people have had problems with them but I now find it weird getting into a car without one.

Same.

Mine works perfectly... except you can't really do handbrake turns with it.

Then it doesn't work perfectly, does it!

[Clivey]

Dodsy said:

I think Jaguar have this nailed. My XJR is brilliant. Pull up, pop button and the brake applies. The brake pedal moves in slightly as it does so you know its on. Then you just press the loud pedal to pull away , brake automatically releases and away you go. Or if you just want to take it off to roll forward a gentle squeeze of the accelerator pedal and it releases.

And when you turn the engine off it automatically applies the brake, again with feedback through the brake pedal.

Of course having an auto its always effectively left in gear (park) so no chance it will roll away anyway.

The only problem with the XF is that the start/stop system only works if you keep your foot on the brake! As I didn't want to do that, I ended-up disabling SS.

[sonarbell]

Just had another Insignia this year with leccy handbrake. Never had an issue with either in 4 years..

But dont get me started on the New Info-tainment/Sat Nav system..Now thats a very piss poor piece of software writing !!!!!

[shoehorn]

jamieduff1981 said:

As above just the same as with piston engines and gearboxes, not all electronic park brakes are equal.

Jaguar Land Rover implementation works great and offers cabin design benefits with no loss of anything you'd lament in the car.

When some cheapo facsimile is produced by Vauxhall or whatever disappoints it would be unwise to denounce them all as rubbish. It's as disingenious as that daft automatic gearbox thread based upon the shortcomings of a particularly naff installation of that type of machinery.

Land rover,Volvo,Ford,Mazda,Bmw,Citroen and Renault used the same Kuster units fitted with different cables to suit.
The mechanism is designed well and the motor is smaller than you would imagine but their Achilles heal is water ingress.
When activated they keep pulling until at least 1100NM is measured,if the car is still moving then chances are it`s the brakes them selves or one of the cables.

[CapnSlow]

Had Electronic brakes on a series of LR Discoveries. Always worked very well indeed and never failed. Same for the Ferrari - works very well. BMW had normal brake, which sometimes failed. That's why I always kept it in gear.

[jamieduff1981]

Clivey said:

jamieduff1981 said:

In all seriousness I have a spare Jag actuator and seriously thought that it would help the Cerbera which has a really awkwardly positioned handbrake that's marginal at best and very awkward/long term painful to use.

Painful? How so?

jamieduff1981 said:

In the end I shelved the idea because part of the reason the Jag one works so well is because it's been fully integrated in to the systems of the car in terms of how much automation it has in when it applies itself or releases itself and how button presses are handled. I couldn't replicate that in an otherwise manual car so the Cerbera will remain fully manual, parked in gear on level ground only and a PITA to hillstart.

The problem isn't that the Cerbera has a traditional handbrake, just that the one it does have doesn't sound like it's working correctly. A decent traditional handbrake, as I'm sure you know, just works.

jamieduff1981 said:

I really like them. The only thing they're not any use for is handbrake turns, which nobody who isn't a 15 year old joyrider ever does.

But, but, but...I'm 25 actually!!!



I just feel more "in control" of a car at junctions etc. with a handbrake (and off-road in the Disco).

Without derailing too much, all Cerb handbrakes are rubbish and the reason is twofold. Firstly, it uses a drum in the disc hub for the handbrake and it's not very effective. A PHer is working on a new arrangement with a separate little park brake caliper acting on the disc. The second reason is that the transmission tunnel is not far below your arm pit and is wide, but the hand lever is over on the passenger side. Not only does it need pulled harder than a normal car to hold the car with those silly mini drums, but the ergonomics of the lever are poor and require you to dig your elbow into the transmission tunnel padding and lift the lever by rotating your arm at the shoulder. I have no problems doing serious spannering but 3 days consecutively in the Cerbera in city traffic and it seems to strain all the tendons in my left wrist which puts me off using it that much.

An electric arrangement would have been good.

[eliot]

I've seen a few cars at the station car park that had unparked themselves back into the road. Only a slight gradient.

[Rollcage]

thatdude said:

That could explain my observations of my handbrake...put it on, it's fine, then 20 seconds later it starts to start creaking, so I have to re-apply

I trust my handbrake on level ground, and slight, slight gradients, but I leave it in gear on steeper hills. Question is, if I am facing downhill, should I leave it in a forward gear, and if I am facing up hill, should I leave it in reverse? i.e. so that depending on which was the car is likely to roll, the engine turns the correct way (i.e. not backwards)

I can't believe this gem has gone unnoticed....

[jamieduff1981]

Rollcage said:

thatdude said:

That could explain my observations of my handbrake...put it on, it's fine, then 20 seconds later it starts to start creaking, so I have to re-apply

I trust my handbrake on level ground, and slight, slight gradients, but I leave it in gear on steeper hills. Question is, if I am facing downhill, should I leave it in a forward gear, and if I am facing up hill, should I leave it in reverse? i.e. so that depending on which was the car is likely to roll, the engine turns the correct way (i.e. not backwards)

I can't believe this gem has gone unnoticed....

Erm, it has been noticed, discussed and put to bed

[Mr2Mike]

irocfan said:

if everyone looked at it that way IK Brunnel would've have had no career at all - "wooden ships work perfectly well and wood floats, metal doesn't. New fangled rubbish. Bah humbug!" not to mention Barnes Wallis, Frank Whittle among (many) others

Steel ships have very significant advantages over wooden ones. Electronic brakes brakes have many disadvantages over conventional ones.

[jamieduff1981]

Mr2Mike said:

irocfan said:

if everyone looked at it that way IK Brunnel would've have had no career at all - "wooden ships work perfectly well and wood floats, metal doesn't. New fangled rubbish. Bah humbug!" not to mention Barnes Wallis, Frank Whittle among (many) others

Steel ships have very significant advantages over wooden ones. Electronic brakes brakes have many disadvantages over conventional ones.

Chief amongst which is the inability to pick up 12 year old girls who are impressed by handbrake turns in your 1.2 Corsa.

In all seriousness, good ones add an extra plug in module and perhaps 2kg of weight. They then get rid of a big handle in the middle of the car where useful storage / arm rests / cup holders can go and can apply themselves automatically when you get out. Vauxhall's may be crap but Jag's EPBs aren't. I've seen plenty inattentive clowns walk away from a car with a conventional handbrake left off. Or indeed seen brakes cool and a handbrake applied with light force let the car roll away. EPBs are either on or off and mitigate this.

[Rollcage]

jamieduff1981 said:

Rollcage said:

thatdude said:

That could explain my observations of my handbrake...put it on, it's fine, then 20 seconds later it starts to start creaking, so I have to re-apply

I trust my handbrake on level ground, and slight, slight gradients, but I leave it in gear on steeper hills. Question is, if I am facing downhill, should I leave it in a forward gear, and if I am facing up hill, should I leave it in reverse? i.e. so that depending on which was the car is likely to roll, the engine turns the correct way (i.e. not backwards)

I can't believe this gem has gone unnoticed....

Erm, it has been noticed, discussed and put to bed

I can't see any mention of what it reads like to me - namely that he thinks the engine turns in a different direction if in reverse?

[Superhoop]

shoehorn said:

Land rover,Volvo,Ford,MazdaBmw,Citroen and Renault used the same Kuster units fitted with different cables to suit.
The mechanism is designed well and the motor is smaller than you would imagine but their Achilles heal is water ingress.
When activated they keep pulling until at least 1100NM is measured,if the car is still moving then chances are it`s the brakes them selves or one of the cables.

Assuming you're correct, this must be a Mazda not available in Europe, because the current range, Mazda2, Mazda3, Mazda5, Mazda6, MX-5 and CX-5 (and all older models) use a mechanical handbrake with a real lever

[Engineer1]

Hatchoo said:

I also can't see why the lever, ratchet, cable, brake principle needed reinventing. A standard handbrake is satisfyingly haptic.

The general trend of automatification of every bloody part of the driving experience is beyond tedious.

Good use of a box of your own belongings by the way.

Packaging of the components within the car, a button on the dash only needs wires, a traditional lever and cables needs mechanical linkage and a clear run for the mechanism.