Engine Oil Quality
Discussion
Topbox said:
I can't help but feel that the UK population in general (pistonheaders excluded perhaps) has an unhealthy relationship with oil and oil changes.
If you come over to the US you can drive into a garage and get an oil change for 30 quid. The Americans I've spoken to are horrified at the oil change intervals we use.
I think in the UK people get their oil changed when going for a service, whereas a quick mid service oil change may well do wonders for the life of your engine. And after all its only a 30 minute job and most of that time is waiting for the oil to drain.
That article was interesting. I only know a small amount about oil grades, viscosities etc and I was a little concerned also with the validity of the test.
As mentioned modern oils have come a long way, but perhaps in the UK the general public need to worry less about the quality and more about the intervals?
HiIf you come over to the US you can drive into a garage and get an oil change for 30 quid. The Americans I've spoken to are horrified at the oil change intervals we use.
I think in the UK people get their oil changed when going for a service, whereas a quick mid service oil change may well do wonders for the life of your engine. And after all its only a 30 minute job and most of that time is waiting for the oil to drain.
That article was interesting. I only know a small amount about oil grades, viscosities etc and I was a little concerned also with the validity of the test.
As mentioned modern oils have come a long way, but perhaps in the UK the general public need to worry less about the quality and more about the intervals?
The US and European attitudes are quite different, but so are the engines and oils (in many cases). Many American engines are large and lazy, meaning that the oil has a fairly easy time, so using a basic mineral oil and changing it fairly often is fine. European and Japanese engines are generally smaller and higher revving, so a better oil is required as it's having a harder time.
As more European and Japanese cars go into the US, they are going to have to change their attitude to oil to some extent as the modern diesels tend to have diesel particulate filters and using a mineral oil with them can lead to big bills.
I'm not saying long (20k) service intervals are a good idea, even with a good oil as most oils are worn out long before 20 and there have been plenty of cases reported on forums where there has been sludge build ups which seem to be linked to long life servicing.
Cheers
Tim
Edited by opieoilman on Friday 1st August 16:15
opieoilman said:
Topbox said:
I can't help but feel that the UK population in general (pistonheaders excluded perhaps) has an unhealthy relationship with oil and oil changes.
If you come over to the US you can drive into a garage and get an oil change for 30 quid. The Americans I've spoken to are horrified at the oil change intervals we use.
I think in the UK people get their oil changed when going for a service, whereas a quick mid service oil change may well do wonders for the life of your engine. And after all its only a 30 minute job and most of that time is waiting for the oil to drain.
That article was interesting. I only know a small amount about oil grades, viscosities etc and I was a little concerned also with the validity of the test.
As mentioned modern oils have come a long way, but perhaps in the UK the general public need to worry less about the quality and more about the intervals?
HiIf you come over to the US you can drive into a garage and get an oil change for 30 quid. The Americans I've spoken to are horrified at the oil change intervals we use.
I think in the UK people get their oil changed when going for a service, whereas a quick mid service oil change may well do wonders for the life of your engine. And after all its only a 30 minute job and most of that time is waiting for the oil to drain.
That article was interesting. I only know a small amount about oil grades, viscosities etc and I was a little concerned also with the validity of the test.
As mentioned modern oils have come a long way, but perhaps in the UK the general public need to worry less about the quality and more about the intervals?
The US and European attitudes are quite different, but so are the engines and oils (in many cases). Many American engines are large and lazy, meaning that the oil has a fairly easy time, so using a basic mineral oil and changing it fairly often is fine. European and Japanese engines are generally smaller and higher revving, so a better oil is required as it's having a harder time.
As more European and Japanese cars go into the US, they are going to have to change their attitude to oil to some extent as the modern diesels tend to have diesel particulate filters and using a mineral oil with them can lead to big bills.
I'm not saying long (20k) service intervals are a good idea, even with a good oil as most oils are worn out long before 20 and there have been plenty of cases reported on forums where there has been sludge build ups which seem to be linked to long life servicing.
Cheers
Tim
Edited by opieoilman on Friday 1st August 16:15
I am a big fan of OpieOils and use you guys a lot.
TB
To put it simply engines are very harsh places for an oil to live in!
First and foremost the oil must prevent rotating metal parts from touching - this is becoming increasingly difficult with smaller engines having greater power - this means for example the bearing shells are smaller but with a greater power per cycle means a huge increase in force per area
The oils must cool certain parts of the engine
The oils must handle the acids that are produced during the combustion process and make their way into the crankcase - these acids must be neutralised or they will cause acidic wear of the metal components
The oils must pick up all the 'rubbish' from around the engine - metal particles, soot particles and other by products of combustion and either deposit them in the oil filter or hold them in suspension until the drain period
The oils must apply a detergent to the metal parts to keep them clean and stop the 'rubbish' from sticking to them
The oils may place a 'slippery' layer on the moving parts to reduce friction and improve fuel economy - this gets wiped off each time the metal parts move past each other and so needs to be re-applied!
The oils may also place a protective layer between moving parts with very high pressure (e.g. cam lobes) - when the pressure is very high then there is no liquid oil left between the metal parts and the only thing stopping metal to metal contact is a layer of molecules that the oil has deposited on the surface - again this is wiped off every time the cam lob passes over and needs to be re-applied!
All of the above must be carried out in engines that are getting smaller and so a smaller amount of oil and these jobs must be completed for longer as oil drain intervals increase!
A modern oil is a very complex mix of the right base oil (base oils from different parts of the world North Sea, Arabia etc. all have different properties) and a fine balance of additives to meet all of the requirements above and more.
For an oil to qualify for a specification it has to successfully pass a huge amount of tests which will include chemical lab tests, full engine tests and sometimes even on the road field tests and this does cost millions !
So to answer the OP question yes oil quality counts !
First and foremost the oil must prevent rotating metal parts from touching - this is becoming increasingly difficult with smaller engines having greater power - this means for example the bearing shells are smaller but with a greater power per cycle means a huge increase in force per area
The oils must cool certain parts of the engine
The oils must handle the acids that are produced during the combustion process and make their way into the crankcase - these acids must be neutralised or they will cause acidic wear of the metal components
The oils must pick up all the 'rubbish' from around the engine - metal particles, soot particles and other by products of combustion and either deposit them in the oil filter or hold them in suspension until the drain period
The oils must apply a detergent to the metal parts to keep them clean and stop the 'rubbish' from sticking to them
The oils may place a 'slippery' layer on the moving parts to reduce friction and improve fuel economy - this gets wiped off each time the metal parts move past each other and so needs to be re-applied!
The oils may also place a protective layer between moving parts with very high pressure (e.g. cam lobes) - when the pressure is very high then there is no liquid oil left between the metal parts and the only thing stopping metal to metal contact is a layer of molecules that the oil has deposited on the surface - again this is wiped off every time the cam lob passes over and needs to be re-applied!
All of the above must be carried out in engines that are getting smaller and so a smaller amount of oil and these jobs must be completed for longer as oil drain intervals increase!
A modern oil is a very complex mix of the right base oil (base oils from different parts of the world North Sea, Arabia etc. all have different properties) and a fine balance of additives to meet all of the requirements above and more.
For an oil to qualify for a specification it has to successfully pass a huge amount of tests which will include chemical lab tests, full engine tests and sometimes even on the road field tests and this does cost millions !
So to answer the OP question yes oil quality counts !
My son is a marine engineer.
They never change the oil in their engines.
What they do however is maintain it in top working condition. To a great extent it is used for cooling, & as an agent to carry specialist materials, the oil additives, to where they are required, & to carry away combustion & wear products, as Greyedout says.
What they do have is magnets to take out iron bits, centrifugal filters to spin out other solids, & heaters to remove water & other volatiles.
He tests their oil every 10 days, or so many hours running, & analyses it for loss of additives, & contaminates. They replace the additives that have been consumed, & send both oil samples & residue from the centrifugal filters to be analyzed by the oil company. They get a report of what may be wearing by the solids, & a check on their additives analysis, to confirm their findings.
They do not appear to worry about shear of the long chain molecules of the oil, reducing it's lubrication capacity, which may not be a problem with low revving ships engines. It most definitely was in racing applications in the 60s.
They never change the oil in their engines.
What they do however is maintain it in top working condition. To a great extent it is used for cooling, & as an agent to carry specialist materials, the oil additives, to where they are required, & to carry away combustion & wear products, as Greyedout says.
What they do have is magnets to take out iron bits, centrifugal filters to spin out other solids, & heaters to remove water & other volatiles.
He tests their oil every 10 days, or so many hours running, & analyses it for loss of additives, & contaminates. They replace the additives that have been consumed, & send both oil samples & residue from the centrifugal filters to be analyzed by the oil company. They get a report of what may be wearing by the solids, & a check on their additives analysis, to confirm their findings.
They do not appear to worry about shear of the long chain molecules of the oil, reducing it's lubrication capacity, which may not be a problem with low revving ships engines. It most definitely was in racing applications in the 60s.
Qwert1e said:
Hasbeen said:
They never change the oil in their engines.
Question: Do marine engines consume a certain amount of oil so that, in addition to the additives you mentioned, there is a certain amount of actual oil change provided through topping-up?The oil tanks are heated, & hot oil is circulated though the engine by electric pumps to warm them somewhat before starting. Some still blow a fair bit of exhaust through the joins in the exhaust systems, before they take up as they heat & expand.
One ship my son sailed on would soak the exhaust lagging with this oil, that condensed from the exhaust when cold. It would also have the exhaust shrink & start leaking again if the engines were run for too long at idle/very low revs. When then asked for power, the now hot exhaust gasses leaking into the oil soaked lagging would set that oil on fire, before the exhaust took up again.
The crew always had the fire hoses ready to put them out, when entering or leaving port. He thought it was funny, I'm not sure I would.
Spare tyre with a lot of engines in yachts launches & speed boats there is no way of draining the oil. The engines are as low as possible, with no space under them.
Some genuine marine engines have a plug somewhere to allow pumping the oil out with one of those pumps. Many marinised automotive engines don't have a special port, you simply put the suction hose of the pump down the dip stick tube. This often means the oil is being picked up from a less than ideal spot in the engine, leading to sludge build up.
My opinion.
Its more important to change regularly than to spend 3 times more on a top brand and leave it in for the 12'000 to 20'000 miles some suggest.
I always wait until the free oil filter offer is on at eurocarparts and buy the one with the most up to date oil rating (API ) available at the lowest price. Last time for me it PETRONAS 10w40 with a bosch filter for £17.00. Gold when it go's in , gold when it comes out 6k later.
That said if money was no object and my car really was a supercar , I would have the ester synthetic and finest filter you can buy......
Its more important to change regularly than to spend 3 times more on a top brand and leave it in for the 12'000 to 20'000 miles some suggest.
I always wait until the free oil filter offer is on at eurocarparts and buy the one with the most up to date oil rating (API ) available at the lowest price. Last time for me it PETRONAS 10w40 with a bosch filter for £17.00. Gold when it go's in , gold when it comes out 6k later.
That said if money was no object and my car really was a supercar , I would have the ester synthetic and finest filter you can buy......
nickofh said:
Gold when it go's in , gold when it comes out 6k later.
Afraid that's the sign of an oil NOT doing it's job! An oil goes black because it picks up and holds onto all the 'rubbish' from around the engine. If the oil stays 'gold' then all that rubbish has been deposited around your engine and will not drain out with the oil !Grayedout said:
nickofh said:
Gold when it go's in , gold when it comes out 6k later.
Afraid that's the sign of an oil NOT doing it's job! An oil goes black because it picks up and holds onto all the 'rubbish' from around the engine. If the oil stays 'gold' then all that rubbish has been deposited around your engine and will not drain out with the oil !Grayedout said:
nickofh said:
Gold when it go's in , gold when it comes out 6k later.
Afraid that's the sign of an oil NOT doing it's job! An oil goes black because it picks up and holds onto all the 'rubbish' from around the engine. If the oil stays 'gold' then all that rubbish has been deposited around your engine and will not drain out with the oil !Edit - as morgrp said
Hasbeen said:
Todays oils make the stuff from 50 years ago look like dirty water. Most of them are very good, even the cheap stuff.
I raced a Morgan +4 in the early 60s, using BP corse, their top racing oil of the day. Racing at Bathurst, where we were getting 6250 RPM down Conrod straight, we had to change big end slippers between practice & racing. We could not get more than 60 miles before the slipper in the rod cap was down to copper.
Today people racing the same cars & engines in classic racing, using a range of modern oils, revving somewhat higher, get a full season with no wear showing.
Very interesting story - but just one question...I raced a Morgan +4 in the early 60s, using BP corse, their top racing oil of the day. Racing at Bathurst, where we were getting 6250 RPM down Conrod straight, we had to change big end slippers between practice & racing. We could not get more than 60 miles before the slipper in the rod cap was down to copper.
Today people racing the same cars & engines in classic racing, using a range of modern oils, revving somewhat higher, get a full season with no wear showing.
Were these white metal bearings or "modern" shells? Are the bearings themselves of the same quality now, or have they improved, too?
Grayedout said:
Afraid that's the sign of an oil NOT doing it's job! An oil goes black because it picks up and holds onto all the 'rubbish' from around the engine. If the oil stays 'gold' then all that rubbish has been deposited around your engine and will not drain out with the oil !
I am sorry but I do NOT agree with that, if the engine oil were not doing its job it is likely that the engine itself would soon stop doing its job.Also I thought the oil filter picked up and held onto much of the rubbish from around the engine. When I got the car it was three years old with 20k on it. Having been regularly serviced prior to my ownership and superbly maintained whilst in my care , I like to think that it was gold because my engine was running quite cleanly 80k later.
For the record it was a petrol engine.
nickofh said:
Grayedout said:
Afraid that's the sign of an oil NOT doing it's job! An oil goes black because it picks up and holds onto all the 'rubbish' from around the engine. If the oil stays 'gold' then all that rubbish has been deposited around your engine and will not drain out with the oil !
I am sorry but I do NOT agree with that, if the engine oil were not doing its job it is likely that the engine itself would soon stop doing its job.Also I thought the oil filter picked up and held onto much of the rubbish from around the engine. When I got the car it was three years old with 20k on it. Having been regularly serviced prior to my ownership and superbly maintained whilst in my care , I like to think that it was gold because my engine was running quite cleanly 80k later.
For the record it was a petrol engine.
I am sure it would have been darker had the service interval ( for oil , oil filter and air filter ) I had chosen had been longer.
I seriously doubt that my oil was not doing its job , pretty sure my engine was lubricated , cooled, and cleaned which is why it was still working at near perfectly near 100k.
Whilst I never bought the finest oils they were always trusted brands , Shell , PETRONAS , Valvoline for instance. They all worked perfectly well for me and I'm quite happy changing every 5/6k , pretty sure the person buying used from me will be pleased enough too.
I seriously doubt that my oil was not doing its job , pretty sure my engine was lubricated , cooled, and cleaned which is why it was still working at near perfectly near 100k.
Whilst I never bought the finest oils they were always trusted brands , Shell , PETRONAS , Valvoline for instance. They all worked perfectly well for me and I'm quite happy changing every 5/6k , pretty sure the person buying used from me will be pleased enough too.
Willy Nilly said:
The oil is supposed to hold the dirt in suspension which is why it turns dark. The filter will have a size of particulate that it filters out, below that the particles are smaller than the film of oil so cause no harm. Compressor oil doesn't hold dirt in suspension which is why it is always clean, the dirt falls to the bottom of the sump and stays there.
Full flow engine oil filters are very low efficiency, they have to be to cope with the flow. Many years ago one of the sales reps from a leading oil filter manufacturer told me that the filters often run in by-pass mode towards the end of an extended oil change, in other words the filter has blocked and an internal valve opens to maintain oil flow by re-routing flow around the filter rather than through it, so no filtration. Clean engine oil massively extends engine life by reducing wear.If I was planning to keep a car for a long time I'd change the oil much more frequently than the manufacturers recommendation, if running a new car for 2 or 3 years I'd do the minimum allowable.
RYH64E said:
Willy Nilly said:
The oil is supposed to hold the dirt in suspension which is why it turns dark. The filter will have a size of particulate that it filters out, below that the particles are smaller than the film of oil so cause no harm. Compressor oil doesn't hold dirt in suspension which is why it is always clean, the dirt falls to the bottom of the sump and stays there.
Full flow engine oil filters are very low efficiency, they have to be to cope with the flow. Many years ago one of the sales reps from a leading oil filter manufacturer told me that the filters often run in by-pass mode towards the end of an extended oil change, in other words the filter has blocked and an internal valve opens to maintain oil flow by re-routing flow around the filter rather than through it, so no filtration. Clean engine oil massively extends engine life by reducing wear.If I was planning to keep a car for a long time I'd change the oil much more frequently than the manufacturers recommendation, if running a new car for 2 or 3 years I'd do the minimum allowable.
The only way to know what state the oil is in is to get it tested in a lab. These people that are changing their oil at 5000 miles might be changing the oil every 100 hours, which is just throwing money down the drain.
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