Engine Oil Quality
Discussion
RYH64E said:
Full flow engine oil filters are very low efficiency, they have to be to cope with the flow. Many years ago one of the sales reps from a leading oil filter manufacturer told me that the filters often run in by-pass mode towards the end of an extended oil change, in other words the filter has blocked and an internal valve opens to maintain oil flow by re-routing flow around the filter rather than through it, so no filtration. Clean engine oil massively extends engine life by reducing wear.
If I was planning to keep a car for a long time I'd change the oil much more frequently than the manufacturers recommendation, if running a new car for 2 or 3 years I'd do the minimum allowable.
That's all I was going for , and I was just giving my opinion and less than technical experience. If I was planning to keep a car for a long time I'd change the oil much more frequently than the manufacturers recommendation, if running a new car for 2 or 3 years I'd do the minimum allowable.
TooMany2cvs said:
Hasbeen said:
Todays oils make the stuff from 50 years ago look like dirty water. Most of them are very good, even the cheap stuff.
I raced a Morgan +4 in the early 60s, using BP corse, their top racing oil of the day. Racing at Bathurst, where we were getting 6250 RPM down Conrod straight, we had to change big end slippers between practice & racing. We could not get more than 60 miles before the slipper in the rod cap was down to copper.
Today people racing the same cars & engines in classic racing, using a range of modern oils, revving somewhat higher, get a full season with no wear showing.
Very interesting story - but just one question...I raced a Morgan +4 in the early 60s, using BP corse, their top racing oil of the day. Racing at Bathurst, where we were getting 6250 RPM down Conrod straight, we had to change big end slippers between practice & racing. We could not get more than 60 miles before the slipper in the rod cap was down to copper.
Today people racing the same cars & engines in classic racing, using a range of modern oils, revving somewhat higher, get a full season with no wear showing.
Were these white metal bearings or "modern" shells? Are the bearings themselves of the same quality now, or have they improved, too?
probably better quality than most you buy today. It would have been a pretty good trick to change white metal bearings between practice & racing. 
I changed the big ends bearings in that thing so often, I knew every sump bolt by Christian name.Cheaper oils are cheap as they use cheaper base products. They then leave out odd additives that others include. However, many of the "brand names" you pay a big chunk for marketing, sponsorship deals etc. etc.
It is the car manufacturers that have forced the changes as Opie says, high reving engines create heat which modern oils have to deal with. Extending service intervals is mainly for the huge fleet market in EU which is not a big thing in the US.
Without naming names there are good oils out there, but more importantly is the filter quality. Fit UFI or Fram and you have the best OE that money can buy which filters down to microscopic levels. Fit a cheap filter and they work on the big bits.
It is the car manufacturers that have forced the changes as Opie says, high reving engines create heat which modern oils have to deal with. Extending service intervals is mainly for the huge fleet market in EU which is not a big thing in the US.
Without naming names there are good oils out there, but more importantly is the filter quality. Fit UFI or Fram and you have the best OE that money can buy which filters down to microscopic levels. Fit a cheap filter and they work on the big bits.
Grayedout said:
nickofh said:
Gold when it go's in , gold when it comes out 6k later.
Afraid that's the sign of an oil NOT doing it's job! An oil goes black because it picks up and holds onto all the 'rubbish' from around the engine. If the oil stays 'gold' then all that rubbish has been deposited around your engine and will not drain out with the oil !Umm yes in a diesel that is carbon if the oil is going black!! in a normal modern
Fuel injected petrol its seriously over fueling it will go black!! Otherwise it should turn darker brown..
Edited by powerstroke on Monday 4th August 08:18
spaximus said:
Cheaper oils are cheap as they use cheaper base products. They then leave out odd additives that others include. However, many of the "brand names" you pay a big chunk for marketing, sponsorship deals etc. etc.
It is the car manufacturers that have forced the changes as Opie says, high reving engines create heat which modern oils have to deal with. Extending service intervals is mainly for the huge fleet market in EU which is not a big thing in the US.
Without naming names there are good oils out there, but more importantly is the filter quality. Fit UFI or Fram and you have the best OE that money can buy which filters down to microscopic levels. Fit a cheap filter and they work on the big bits.
A chap on the Lotus forums cut open a number of filters for the K series Elise. The Fram had by far the smallest filter area inside by a long way. Complete rubbish. The best was Mahle.It is the car manufacturers that have forced the changes as Opie says, high reving engines create heat which modern oils have to deal with. Extending service intervals is mainly for the huge fleet market in EU which is not a big thing in the US.
Without naming names there are good oils out there, but more importantly is the filter quality. Fit UFI or Fram and you have the best OE that money can buy which filters down to microscopic levels. Fit a cheap filter and they work on the big bits.
spaximus said:
Without naming names there are good oils out there, but more importantly is the filter quality. Fit UFI or Fram and you have the best OE that money can buy which filters down to microscopic levels. Fit a cheap filter and they work on the big bits.
All of the automotive full flow oil filters are poor in terms of filtration efficiency and construction. If you compare the filter media (cellulose with a phenolic binder) and construction of a spin on engine oil filter with that of a proper hydraulic oil filter you will see what I mean, one costs a few pounds and the other a hundred or so but the more expensive filter does a much better job. If you made a spin on engine filter using high efficiency filter media it would have to be very much larger to cope with the flow rate at an acceptable pressure differential, especially when the engne oil is cold and viscous, which is impractical in most car engine bays due to space constraints (and much more expensive). Some oil filters may be worse than others, but if you believe that even a good one is removing the wear causing particulate in the 2-15 micron range then you're going to be disappointed. And as I've said, spin on oil filters often don't have the surface area to last between oil changes, as the filter blocks an internal valve opens allowing the oil to bypass the filter in order to maintain flow (low flow will kill an engine very quickly), so ironically a better quality filter may actually be worse for the engine because it would remove more contaminant early on, block quicker, and be in by-pass mode until the next service interval.
Edited by RYH64E on Monday 4th August 18:26
we ran our 1998 Toyota Carina for 14 years and 76k miles without any service, cant even remember topping the oil up,
or work being done other than normal wear and tear such as tyres and break pads, on the 14th year the cam belt snapped and car was scrapped shortly after the used replacement engine was fitted
if it wasnt for the cambelt that car sounded healthy
or work being done other than normal wear and tear such as tyres and break pads, on the 14th year the cam belt snapped and car was scrapped shortly after the used replacement engine was fitted
if it wasnt for the cambelt that car sounded healthy
Edited by doodz444 on Monday 4th August 19:39
RYH64E said:
And as I've said, spin on oil filters often don't have the surface area to last between oil changes, as the filter blocks an internal valve opens allowing the oil to bypass the filter in order to maintain flow (low flow will kill an engine very quickly), so ironically a better quality filter may actually be worse for the engine because it would remove more contaminant early on, block quicker, and be in by-pass mode until the next service interval.
Interesting, ta. And yet people still insist in the old "Change the filter every other oil change"...TooMany2cvs said:
RYH64E said:
And as I've said, spin on oil filters often don't have the surface area to last between oil changes, as the filter blocks an internal valve opens allowing the oil to bypass the filter in order to maintain flow (low flow will kill an engine very quickly), so ironically a better quality filter may actually be worse for the engine because it would remove more contaminant early on, block quicker, and be in by-pass mode until the next service interval.
Interesting, ta. And yet people still insist in the old "Change the filter every other oil change"...RYH64E said:
All of the automotive full flow oil filters are poor in terms of filtration efficiency and construction. If you compare the filter media (cellulose with a phenolic binder) and construction of a spin on engine oil filter with that of a proper hydraulic oil filter you will see what I mean, one costs a few pounds and the other a hundred or so but the more expensive filter does a much better job. If you made a spin on engine filter using high efficiency filter media it would have to be very much larger to cope with the flow rate at an acceptable pressure differential, especially when the engne oil is cold and viscous, which is impractical in most car engine bays due to space constraints (and much more expensive).
Some oil filters may be worse than others, but if you believe that even a good one is removing the wear causing particulate in the 2-15 micron range then you're going to be disappointed. And as I've said, spin on oil filters often don't have the surface area to last between oil changes, as the filter blocks an internal valve opens allowing the oil to bypass the filter in order to maintain flow (low flow will kill an engine very quickly), so ironically a better quality filter may actually be worse for the engine because it would remove more contaminant early on, block quicker, and be in by-pass mode until the next service interval.
Having worked in the Automotive industry for over 30 years and having been to several manufacturing plants as well, the quality filters do the job they are designed to do for the manufacturers specification. Yes you can always improve by size and design, but if it is an OE spec filter it will do the job, a cheap filter will not as they are cheap by putting less in. That may be filter material, valves or reducing the size or more often using a filter that "will do" which is already in their range. Indeed for specials we have all the sizes and threads so can help for engine transplants etc. but the caveat is always will fit but not designed for that specific application.Some oil filters may be worse than others, but if you believe that even a good one is removing the wear causing particulate in the 2-15 micron range then you're going to be disappointed. And as I've said, spin on oil filters often don't have the surface area to last between oil changes, as the filter blocks an internal valve opens allowing the oil to bypass the filter in order to maintain flow (low flow will kill an engine very quickly), so ironically a better quality filter may actually be worse for the engine because it would remove more contaminant early on, block quicker, and be in by-pass mode until the next service interval.
Edited by RYH64E on Monday 4th August 18:26
The quality of the filtration material is crucial to that and not necessarily the amount that is in there. The example given of the Lotus guy cutting them up is a good example. I could get a cheap spin on filter that is ram packed with paper, but the filtration would be poor. So just because a fram one had less in does not mean it was not as good as the Mahle.
The OE manufactuers rely on Sogefi who make Fram, UFI, Mahle because they do make the best for the vehicle, not the best that could be made if space and money were no object.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff