anyone been lied to by a used car dealer?
Discussion
nickfrog said:
anyway as I get far better money selling privately. I have never not sold to the first punter in 20 years. Nor have I ever had any come back for that matter.
Conversely what baffles me in the tales of traders trying to source car privately and getting stung is that if that happens to them so often, how come has it only ever happened to me once in 20 years of buying cars privately ? It really is not that difficult to source/qualify/do due diligence.
Because they're maybe buying 100+ per year that way and you're selling maybe one every couple of years? Conversely what baffles me in the tales of traders trying to source car privately and getting stung is that if that happens to them so often, how come has it only ever happened to me once in 20 years of buying cars privately ? It really is not that difficult to source/qualify/do due diligence.
Statistically they'll get stung at some point.
nickfrog said:
Either way, it doesn't put the trade in a very good light from an attention to detail or skill level POV...
Some things you cant pick up immediately. These days - particularly with diesels - you probably need a day with the car to see if its flicking on management lights, hear how it starts cold, make sure everything works, see how it performs on the motorway, check it doesnt go in to limp home mode after 20 miles of driving, etc, etc. Hard to pick up on a lot of that on a 10 minute test drive.Trader friend of mine got caught earlier in the week there. Took a trade in off some very nice people and it turns out when you drive the car more than 10 miles the oil pressure light comes on and the engine starts to rattle. Probably needs an oil pump. Hes not overly concerned as it was a cheapie but those people knew that was doing that and said nothing.
I took a merc in a couple of years ago, buzzed about in it for a day or two and suddenly it just died. Checked all the obvious stuff. Turned out the fuel gauge read 1/4 full when it was empty. There was a saddle shaped tank in it, so there was a whole list of things it could have been wrong with it that was going to take £££'s and time to sort out. Again those people knew that, but you'd never have picked it up even on an extended test drive.
pmjg66 said:
Do you not inspect any car traded in ?
or take the risk somewhat ?
To an extent you have to "take a risk" - theres certain things you just cant check easily, and will only fall out of the woodwork after a day or two.or take the risk somewhat ?
Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
parabolica said:
"Had a guy here to see it this morning and is coming back later today so you'll need to act quick if you want it"
Every. Single. Time.
Ah, I had an amusing version of this. Every. Single. Time.
Wanted to Buy a particular car, narrowed down to 86 available in the UK, in my price range, at a dealer (for the Sale of Goods act warranty - for what it's worth), with the age and mileage that I would compromise on. Within 5 miles of my house was one, pretty much dead in the middle of price vs miles vs age, so not cheap and not expensive. I ring up at 11 am on Friday to say that I'll be passing on my way home at about 4pm and I'd like to look at it. On the phone they suggested I could pay a deposit over the phone to reserve it, as : to quote : "Had a guy here to see it this morning and is coming back later today so you'll need to act quick if you want it"but it would be totally refundable, if I didn't like the car. Er No thanks.
So at about 4 pm I saw the car, and arranged to test drive it at 10 am the following morning (they wanted to see driving licence, and I wanted my wife to see it and drive it too).
So we got there at 10am, Saturday to be told they'd sold it. So in the 2 hours you were open, you sold it, and couldn't ring me to save me a journey. Well, take my details and if it falls through, or you get another, and I haven't bought one, I'll come and view it.
So the next day, I drive 60 miles, to the next closest English speaking Welsh sales outlet, put a deposit on an almost identical car, and the following Friday, I pick it up on my way home.
As I passed the other place, I saw the first car still for sale, so I went in and asked about it.
So the buyers found out on Saturday afternoon, they couldn't get the finance, and the sale fell through. Would I still be interested? Er no. But had you phoned me Saturday afternoon, I would have come on my way to see the other, on Sunday and maybe you'd have had a sale.
Now that's not where the story ends.
1 month later, a woman from the dealer, phoned me as I'm on their mailing list looking for this particular spec of car, and they've Just got one in exactly as I wanted. I ask what the reg number is, and lo and behold it's the same one. I struggled to stop laughing.
daemon said:
To an extent you have to "take a risk" - theres certain things you just cant check easily, and will only fall out of the woodwork after a day or two.
Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
Not having a dig (honest !! ) but, the opening line here....very true,but also this must apply to joe public buying from a dealer surely ? Yet there are loads of threads on here when faults appear after a car has been collected only for the dealer collective to cry "you should have spotted that"....just saying !Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
bigee said:
daemon said:
To an extent you have to "take a risk" - theres certain things you just cant check easily, and will only fall out of the woodwork after a day or two.
Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
Not having a dig (honest !! ) but, the opening line here....very true,but also this must apply to joe public buying from a dealer surely ? Yet there are loads of threads on here when faults appear after a car has been collected only for the dealer collective to cry "you should have spotted that"....just saying !Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
BUT, anyways. As a customer you have rights and these rights are protected through the SOGA. If you buy a product that is not as described or develops a "fault" within a reasonable period of ownership, the trader selling the car has certain obligations to fulfill. Now, some dealers may try to avoid those obligations - and thats a problem, and some customers may feel that what is actually wear and tear is a "fault" - and thats a problem too. And it doesnt help that the SOGA is not very clear. So disputes arise.
However, either way, the customer has rights. They can go back to the dealer. And if its a fault the dealer is obliged to repair, replace or refund. Not so for the dealer. A customer can pretty much cheerfully ass rape a dealer with a duff trade in and theres extremely little the dealer can do about it because he is deemed to be the "expert".
THATS the scenarios we're talking about here - whereby a customer keeps their head down and says nothing about a major fault but its "ok" to stiff the dealer.
Fair comment, but in this current thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
near enough to a man all are saying "tough" man up and sort it yourself. Whilst this is not (as yet ) the dealer saying he wont fix it just goes to show the prevailing attitude. That dealer must (or certainly should ) have known those faults? As you said it can happen that a car slips through the net so to speak and again as you said you would expect it to be repaired or auctioned or traded not sold on and then start wriggling. I myself bought a car last year that was "immaculate" " without fault" etc.....apart from a broken spring,bust self levelling on the xenons (both mot fails even though the car passed its mot the day before I was to collect)amongst other more serious faults. In my case I traded my then L322 Range Rover in and even re gassed air con and changed a noisy wheel bearing the day before so it was in top order. I needn't have bothered as the dealer merely walked around it and came back inside.
That particular dealer was a disgrace to any trade.
Oh,sorry to go off topic somewhat !
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
near enough to a man all are saying "tough" man up and sort it yourself. Whilst this is not (as yet ) the dealer saying he wont fix it just goes to show the prevailing attitude. That dealer must (or certainly should ) have known those faults? As you said it can happen that a car slips through the net so to speak and again as you said you would expect it to be repaired or auctioned or traded not sold on and then start wriggling. I myself bought a car last year that was "immaculate" " without fault" etc.....apart from a broken spring,bust self levelling on the xenons (both mot fails even though the car passed its mot the day before I was to collect)amongst other more serious faults. In my case I traded my then L322 Range Rover in and even re gassed air con and changed a noisy wheel bearing the day before so it was in top order. I needn't have bothered as the dealer merely walked around it and came back inside.
That particular dealer was a disgrace to any trade.
Oh,sorry to go off topic somewhat !
daemon said:
bigee said:
daemon said:
To an extent you have to "take a risk" - theres certain things you just cant check easily, and will only fall out of the woodwork after a day or two.
Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
Not having a dig (honest !! ) but, the opening line here....very true,but also this must apply to joe public buying from a dealer surely ? Yet there are loads of threads on here when faults appear after a car has been collected only for the dealer collective to cry "you should have spotted that"....just saying !Even if you were 95% effective then if you are buying 20 cars a month, then thats one you're going to average each month that you havent picked up on a major fault on.
IF you're "lucky" you might be able to sell it on to another trader or through a trade auction and just lose the prospective profit on it, but if you're unlucky it'll take the profit out of that car and maybe the next two you sell as well.
BUT, anyways. As a customer you have rights and these rights are protected through the SOGA. If you buy a product that is not as described or develops a "fault" within a reasonable period of ownership, the trader selling the car has certain obligations to fulfill. Now, some dealers may try to avoid those obligations - and thats a problem, and some customers may feel that what is actually wear and tear is a "fault" - and thats a problem too. And it doesnt help that the SOGA is not very clear. So disputes arise.
However, either way, the customer has rights. They can go back to the dealer. And if its a fault the dealer is obliged to repair, replace or refund. Not so for the dealer. A customer can pretty much cheerfully ass rape a dealer with a duff trade in and theres extremely little the dealer can do about it because he is deemed to be the "expert".
THATS the scenarios we're talking about here - whereby a customer keeps their head down and says nothing about a major fault but its "ok" to stiff the dealer.
In my experience they tend to have a quick look to check that its got four wheels and starts then then offer below book an try to force a finince package based on a 'what can you afford to pay per month' type of line.
Although dealers may get a rough deal sometimes then they have to accept its par for the course when dealing with the general public.
Generally speaking though most dealers can't lay straight in bed. Lying razzbags
lord trumpton said:
Yeah fair points but I do feel that the private customer stiffing a dealer is only 'morally' wrong. Any dealer who claims to be a professional seller should have enough nouse to find any serious problems with the car when they appraise it.
In my experience they tend to have a quick look to check that its got four wheels and starts then then offer below book an try to force a finince package based on a 'what can you afford to pay per month' type of line.
Although dealers may get a rough deal sometimes then they have to accept its par for the course when dealing with the general public.
Generally speaking though most dealers can't lay straight in bed. Lying razzbags
only "morally" wrong? Interesting set of double standards you have there. In my experience they tend to have a quick look to check that its got four wheels and starts then then offer below book an try to force a finince package based on a 'what can you afford to pay per month' type of line.
Although dealers may get a rough deal sometimes then they have to accept its par for the course when dealing with the general public.
Generally speaking though most dealers can't lay straight in bed. Lying razzbags
Best I had was a couple who traded 2 cars in with me.told me there were no problems and upon initial inspection the cars were fine.Turned out one had a stretched timing chain and the other numerous faults-all bodged by their friendly aa man best friend so as not to be obvious during my brief appraisal before taking them in.i took it on the chin and traded both cars out at a substantial loss-law of averages/such is life etc...
Nearly 6 months later the car I sold them developed a fault.first I knew they were on the phone,wife was a solicitor,wanting to reject the car.next they have dropped the car back with me and issued court proceedings.Whilst I would normally fight this I was advised the costs could escalate beyond the purchase price of their car,so in the end refunded them.
In essence they stuck their 2 knackered cars into me and had nearly 6 months free motoring in the car I sold them.
I fixed the car I sold them,tested it myself for a couple of months/'000 miles and resold it to a friend.Hes had it 2 years now and has been totally reliable.../
Nearly 6 months later the car I sold them developed a fault.first I knew they were on the phone,wife was a solicitor,wanting to reject the car.next they have dropped the car back with me and issued court proceedings.Whilst I would normally fight this I was advised the costs could escalate beyond the purchase price of their car,so in the end refunded them.
In essence they stuck their 2 knackered cars into me and had nearly 6 months free motoring in the car I sold them.
I fixed the car I sold them,tested it myself for a couple of months/'000 miles and resold it to a friend.Hes had it 2 years now and has been totally reliable.../
Yes. Bought a car from a dealer with fresh MOT. Drove it home, took off the wheels, noticed badly bulging brake lines, and a few other MOT failures.
Asked dealer to rectify, he said no. Became a gigantic pain to dealer, including waiting in his reception, on his sofa, asking everyone who came through his door to steer well clear. I contacted trading standards also. He fixed the MOT failure issues. Trading standards phoned me two months later to tell me he was shut down and that the MOT centre who had been filling out certificates without even seeing any cars had been shut down also. I wasn't alone in complaining and the trading standards people did their job.
Asked dealer to rectify, he said no. Became a gigantic pain to dealer, including waiting in his reception, on his sofa, asking everyone who came through his door to steer well clear. I contacted trading standards also. He fixed the MOT failure issues. Trading standards phoned me two months later to tell me he was shut down and that the MOT centre who had been filling out certificates without even seeing any cars had been shut down also. I wasn't alone in complaining and the trading standards people did their job.
daemon said:
nickfrog said:
anyway as I get far better money selling privately. I have never not sold to the first punter in 20 years. Nor have I ever had any come back for that matter.
Conversely what baffles me in the tales of traders trying to source car privately and getting stung is that if that happens to them so often, how come has it only ever happened to me once in 20 years of buying cars privately ? It really is not that difficult to source/qualify/do due diligence.
Because they're maybe buying 100+ per year that way and you're selling maybe one every couple of years? Conversely what baffles me in the tales of traders trying to source car privately and getting stung is that if that happens to them so often, how come has it only ever happened to me once in 20 years of buying cars privately ? It really is not that difficult to source/qualify/do due diligence.
Statistically they'll get stung at some point.
The point made in this thread by the dealers and those defending them at all cost is that dealers don't lie any more than the public part-exing cars with faults. Obviously, this would be no excuse anyway but still.
You quoted many examples of you getting done by private punters. You made it sound like this was happening most of the time. How often were you shafted ? 10% of the time ? 50 % ? 90 %?
I feel that in my small sample I got shafted 5% of the time by private punters. Let's assume that for a massively bigger sample less time can be dedicated to due diligence (but let's not forget that I am not a professional) and that this quadruples the rate of shafting to 20% of cars (what you rightly call "Statistically getting stung at some point..")
We are still very very far from what I think (based on non-statistical evidence, I am not that sad yet ;-)) is the proportion of dealers lying through their teeth for a living : 90%. No one has argued with that figure yet, but even if it is "only" 50%, that is still massively higher and doesn't match the standards of any industries I have been in. Or maybe I have spent my corporate life in a very sheltered environment.
The only logical conclusion must be that it is quintessentially a rotten group of people (compared to other industries or compared to private punters) with just a minority of decent honest traders (which again, I am sure the resident dealers belong to ;-})
As for SOGA compliance, you extremely rarely hear of any spontaneous instances.
There comes a point where defending the obviously indefensible becomes a little tricky IMO.
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 7th August 20:10
We trade for about 600 cars a year. Most are fine but you always get the odd punter who tries to hide something, many "forget" they were in a wreck until the evidence is shown. That's why we always test drive them. In the USA we have Carfax which shows any accident that is the subject of an insurance claim or a police report. As the police are called to even the smallest fender bender here most are caught. Changes to title are also shown as are odometer rollbacks. No substitute for your eyes and ears though.
lord trumpton said:
Say a punter traded a car with HGF or cracked block or ruined valve train and 'quietened' with thick oil etc....what come back would the dealer have when the new owner (dealer customer) brought the car back reporting the above problem(s)?
You mean comeback on the person who traded it in? None.Although any dealer worth their salt wouldn't sell it again with fixing it, or would just trade it out and let someone else deal with it.
Sheepshanks said:
Butter Face said:
Although any dealer worth their salt wouldn't sell it again with fixing it, or would just trade it out and let someone else deal with it.
If it's got a significant problem, would you spend time figuring out what the best thing to do is, or do you just get shut?POORCARDEALER said:
Sheepshanks said:
Butter Face said:
Although any dealer worth their salt wouldn't sell it again with fixing it, or would just trade it out and let someone else deal with it.
If it's got a significant problem, would you spend time figuring out what the best thing to do is, or do you just get shut?Every part ex appraisal is driven rond the block; unless you are my colleague, to make sure nothing immediately jumps out such as a dodgy clutch, funny noises, gears work etc however sometimes major problems get picked up after we have taken the car in and we have decided to have a go at retailing it, as we get an inspection done in our workshop before we put it up for sale.
once upon a time a friend bought a new premium 4x4 (when there was only one real manufacturer)...the car turned up & they were very proud of it till I pointed out the fuel filler cap was a different colour to the wing - it turns out the filler cap was the correct colour & the rest of the car the wrong shade of silver! It took some pushing & shoving, though a new car in the correct colour was supplied although the dealer denied they were wrong until solicitors intervention was promised....priceless 
Sheepshanks said:
Butter Face said:
Although any dealer worth their salt wouldn't sell it again with fixing it, or would just trade it out and let someone else deal with it.
If it's got a significant problem, would you spend time figuring out what the best thing to do is, or do you just get shut?nickfrog said:
Are you saying that the size of the sample reverses the conclusion?
I'm saying the bigger the sample, the more accurate your findings tend to be. If your sample size is say, 3, then you're going to get different results than if your sample size is 300.nickfrog said:
The point made in this thread by the dealers and those defending them at all cost is that dealers don't lie any more than the public part-exing cars with faults. Obviously, this would be no excuse anyway but still.
No one is defending dealers at all cost - merely giving the dealers viewpoint - based on actual experience rather than perception.nickfrog said:
You quoted many examples of you getting done by private punters.
I gave a few examples. nickfrog said:
You made it sound like this was happening most of the time. How often were you shafted ? 10% of the time ? 50 % ? 90 %?
I was statistically speaking, rarely shafted - however i did come across a disturbingly high percentage of cars that people were trying to trade in OR had been traded in to another dealer that clearly the customer was opting / had opted to lie about the condition of. Sometimes when you spot it, you just adjust the price accordingly and trade the car on. Sometimes, you decline to do the deal, sometimes you challenge the person on it.nickfrog said:
I feel that in my small sample I got shafted 5% of the time by private punters. Let's assume that for a massively bigger sample less time can be dedicated to due diligence (but let's not forget that I am not a professional) and that this quadruples the rate of shafting to 20% of cars (what you rightly call "Statistically getting stung at some point..")
Probably not far from the truth - maybe 20% of cars out there attempting to be traded in have a hidden problem. Again, you will pick up a highish percentage of them.Also, dont forget that most people who are selling privately know they've a decent car to sell. If its a pup of a thing with problems, moreoften they "trade it in". So statistically buying a car from some bloke whos owned it several years, had it serviced, given it a fresh coat of polish, put a fresh MOT on it and stuck it on autotrader himself is going to be more likely to be a good car, than someone whos trading in something uncared for with no MOT that he doesnt want any comeback on.
nickfrog said:
We are still very very far from what I think (based on non-statistical evidence, I am not that sad yet ;-)) is the proportion of dealers lying through their teeth for a living : 90%. No one has argued with that figure yet, but even if it is "only" 50%, that is still massively higher and doesn't match the standards of any industries I have been in. Or maybe I have spent my corporate life in a very sheltered environment.
I corrected your perception of that figure several pages back when you first came up with that conclusion. Really, you cant just pluck figures out of the air and because no-one can be bothered to correct the obvious flaws in it assume its correct. Do you really think because you said "90% of dealers are lying weasels" then every dealer on here has thought "s
t, hes on to us, best keep our heads down and hope he goes away"?nickfrog said:
The only logical conclusion must be that it is quintessentially a rotten group of people (compared to other industries or compared to private punters) with just a minority of decent honest traders (which again, I am sure the resident dealers belong to ;-})
Thats not a logical conclusion, thats your perception based on no quantifiable evidence other than - "10% of dealers really go the extra mile, therefore 90% must be lying weasels" There is much ground in between you know.
nickfrog said:
As for SOGA compliance, you extremely rarely hear of any spontaneous instances.
If you look at trading standards / Consumer Direct figures of people who come to them about used car purchases, it represents something like 0.1% of all cars sold each year. Even if that figure is tenfold out then you're still at a very low percentage. Dont forget that (a) lots of used cars dont have problems and the buyers are very happy, (b) lots of times dealers sort the problems out to the buyers satisfaction and (c) some of the time the customers perceptions as to what should be covered is wrong.
nickfrog said:
There comes a point where defending the obviously indefensible becomes a little tricky IMO.
I dont consider responding to your view as defending the indefensible, i view it as helping correct your perceptions - which are clearly bitterly skewed, yet, given you buy seemingly almost all of your cars from private sellers seems based on very little actual recent experience.Hope that helps.
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