Keep left on the motorway?
Discussion
Nigel Worc's said:
Offence !
(Try UK English rather than US English on your spell checker).
I've run the video past the infamous Vonhosen, and sadly he thinks the OP in lane one is more likely to get a ticket than the hated people in lane two.
Ironically I'd agree with that.It would also have been interesting to see an actual speed readout as in the case of other dash cam type vids.In this case I'd say that the complaint is more one of the dumbed down UK motorway speed regime than the type of non existent lane discipline which that regime inevitably results in.Probably because in a strictly enforced and observed 70 mph max environment as I've said lane discipline effectively becomes irrelevant.Whereas overtaking on the nearside is always an arguably unacceptable risk.(Try UK English rather than US English on your spell checker).
I've run the video past the infamous Vonhosen, and sadly he thinks the OP in lane one is more likely to get a ticket than the hated people in lane two.
Edited by Nigel Worc's on Saturday 2nd August 18:37
Uncle John said:
Not reading all of that but I drive the M23/A27 everyday and that clip just shows poor mway etiquette which is endemic in this country. M25 is just pick a lane and stick to it.
If I was being cynical then perhaps the education is lacking to allow the govt to push the anti car agenda.
Realistically if running at above the truck limiter setting type speeds and staying within the 70 mph limit that's more or less the logical options in the so called 'overtaking lanes'.If I was being cynical then perhaps the education is lacking to allow the govt to push the anti car agenda.
As for the final sentence it's definitely a case of motorways being turned into expensive slow running liabilities to make car use as unattractive as possible.All done on the false 'safety' agenda.Which explains why a long distance motorway run at reasonable motorway speeds would be almost guaranteed to result in a nick.Unlike running in lane 2 or 3 at around 60 mph max.Because the former fits the anti speed agenda while the latter doesn't.
Nigel Worc's said:
I am indeed telling you that hogging the middle lane is not an offence, and it doesn't carry a fine and three points.
I beg to differ. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23713732
"Careless drivers across Britain who hog lanes or tailgate can now be punished with on-the-spot police fines.
Under the new measures, officers can issue £100 fines and three points rather than taking drivers to court."
And they are enforcing it too...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-new...
Edited by calibrax on Saturday 2nd August 20:39
Eagerbeaver said:
It would be good if the motoring public in the UK recognised that lanes 2 and 3 were for overtaking but the vast majority are probably not as aware of driving sensibly as the average PH member.
For whatever reason MLM is not being targeted and speed here is an issue. The issue is that speeds in lane 2 and 3 are too low.
We really need minimum speed limits in 2 and 3 which are enforced when 2 is empty.
It seems obvious that assuming lane 1 is mostly about 56 mph max traffic use that only leaves a maximum speed differential of 14 mph divided equally between lanes 2 and 3 and possibly lanes 2,3,and 4 in the case of a four lane motorway.Which means that 'minimum' and maximum limit in lane 2 can't be any more than 63 mph and less in the case of a 4 lane motorway.The problem is the motorway speed limit and it's strict enforcement.Bad lane discipline is just a symptom of that situation. For whatever reason MLM is not being targeted and speed here is an issue. The issue is that speeds in lane 2 and 3 are too low.
We really need minimum speed limits in 2 and 3 which are enforced when 2 is empty.
calibrax said:
And before you get all pedantic and say :
"there's no specific offence of 'lane hogging', it comes under 'careless driving'"
...that's like saying...
"there's no specific offence of 'killing people', it comes under 'murder' or 'manslaughter'"...
It's possible to kill people & it not be an offence."there's no specific offence of 'lane hogging', it comes under 'careless driving'"
...that's like saying...
"there's no specific offence of 'killing people', it comes under 'murder' or 'manslaughter'"...
If you commit murder it will be an offence.
Similarly it's possible to be in lane 2 with space to your left & it not be an offence, but careless driving will be an offence.
Being in lane 2 with a space to your left is not enough on it's own to be an offence (it's not legislated for specifically like exceeding a speed limit limit is). there has to be something extra about the circumstances themselves that makes it come under Sec 3 RTA (it won't always do so).
calibrax said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I am indeed telling you that hogging the middle lane is not an offence, and it doesn't carry a fine and three points.
I beg to differ. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23713732
"Careless drivers across Britain who hog lanes or tailgate can now be punished with on-the-spot police fines.
Under the new measures, officers can issue £100 fines and three points rather than taking drivers to court."
And they are enforcing it too...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-new...
Edited by calibrax on Saturday 2nd August 20:39
calibrax said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I am indeed telling you that hogging the middle lane is not an offence, and it doesn't carry a fine and three points.
I beg to differ. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23713732
"Careless drivers across Britain who hog lanes or tailgate can now be punished with on-the-spot police fines.
Under the new measures, officers can issue £100 fines and three points rather than taking drivers to court."
And they are enforcing it too...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-new...
Edited by calibrax on Saturday 2nd August 20:39
While it's also obvious in this case that even the camera car driver managed to cause a potential box in situation behind a truck by trying to make a dodgy point in lane 1 when lane 3 was the obvious option.
calibrax said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I am indeed telling you that hogging the middle lane is not an offence, and it doesn't carry a fine and three points.
I beg to differ. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23713732
"Careless drivers across Britain who hog lanes or tailgate can now be punished with on-the-spot police fines.
Under the new measures, officers can issue £100 fines and three points rather than taking drivers to court."
And they are enforcing it too...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-new...
Edited by calibrax on Saturday 2nd August 20:39
vixen1700 said:
Couldn't believe the M11 on Thursday morning, I was driving in lane one and the outside lane (two lane part of M11) was just clogged up with constantly braking morons.
Indeed, but on the off chance that it was you (apols if not) who blasted up L1 Inside (admittedly slowly overtaking traffic) in L2 with a speed differential of circa 20-30mph and then stuck your right hand indicator on when getting to the slow lorry in L1, please refrain from doing so in future. I'd like to get to work without the delay of driving through the debris of your accident when someone inevitably side swipes you. There is 'making progress' and there's driving like an impatient d
head.Admittedly this bit (2L) of the M11 is notorious for poor lane discipline. It is very easy to be in L2 making legitimate overtakes when a wagon in L1 ahead moves out to do an 'elephant race' overtake. Usual practice is to stick with it in L2 and wait your turn, but then increasing numbers behind do the same. Hence the 'constantly braking morons'. I guess this section really needs an 'HGV No Overtaking' restriction at peak times- ISTR this was tried on the A14 Huntigdon -Cambridge section, does it improve matters there?
Edited by darren f on Saturday 2nd August 21:55
The problem with that, certainly on a two lane road, is you get a lot of slow cars and caravans and suchlike going past long lines of bunched up HGVs, then a load of elephant racing as soon as the no overtaking section ends. Very often it's a ditherer in a car holding up the line of HGVs as well.
My commute is daily hampered by these MLM fkwits and as a result I'm always overtaking on the inside. Last week I was in lane 1 and everybody else in front of me was in lanes 2 and 3 and I started off by slowing down so I didn't overtake the cars in lane 2 - I ended up doing just over 20mph on a three lane A road with a 50mph limit. Because I'd slowed down everybody behind me in lane 1 also slowed down, the result being that because of those plums crawling along doggedly in lanes 2 and 3 the whole road was doing 20mph despite there being a bloody lane clear.
So I sped up to 40mph and sailed along for five miles where I turned off - all the while lanes 2 and 3 were crawling. Crazy!
kwits and as a result I'm always overtaking on the inside. Last week I was in lane 1 and everybody else in front of me was in lanes 2 and 3 and I started off by slowing down so I didn't overtake the cars in lane 2 - I ended up doing just over 20mph on a three lane A road with a 50mph limit. Because I'd slowed down everybody behind me in lane 1 also slowed down, the result being that because of those plums crawling along doggedly in lanes 2 and 3 the whole road was doing 20mph despite there being a bloody lane clear.So I sped up to 40mph and sailed along for five miles where I turned off - all the while lanes 2 and 3 were crawling. Crazy!
I think speed cameras on motorways have made this problem worse, certainly on the M25 anyway. People don't want to accelerate above 70 to get past the car beside them and then move over to the left ( obviously nobody ever brakes to achieve the same effect - that would never enter their heads) and so you get 4 lanes of cars doing 70 sometimes.
Come to think of it, that is probably perfect from a traffic flow planners point of view.
Come to think of it, that is probably perfect from a traffic flow planners point of view.
You don't really want people braking on the motorway either. I've seen people braking on managed motorways every time they pass a gantry or a camera sign, even if they're doing nowhere near the limit. It just creates a wave of ever heavier braking from the first guy covering his brake pedal and showing his brake lights to each subsequent person over reacting ever more to the person in front. That's what traffic jams are made of.
If the managed motorway system had been used to allow for higher than 70mph limits as was suggested, because in theory at least if they aren't warning of hazards ahead we can be more sure there aren't any than on an ordinary motorway with fewer warning systems and means to slow traffic down, we might not see the ten mile overtakes because there would be greater speed differentials between vehicles and people wouldn't be afraid of getting a shift on like they do normally.
If the managed motorway system had been used to allow for higher than 70mph limits as was suggested, because in theory at least if they aren't warning of hazards ahead we can be more sure there aren't any than on an ordinary motorway with fewer warning systems and means to slow traffic down, we might not see the ten mile overtakes because there would be greater speed differentials between vehicles and people wouldn't be afraid of getting a shift on like they do normally.
swisstoni said:
I think speed cameras on motorways have made this problem worse, certainly on the M25 anyway. People don't want to accelerate above 70 to get past the car beside them and then move over to the left ( obviously nobody ever brakes to achieve the same effect - that would never enter their heads) and so you get 4 lanes of cars doing 70 sometimes.
Come to think of it, that is probably perfect from a traffic flow planners point of view.
Yep a lot of this is engineered for the Sheeple, but in reality a on a decent run making progress is 80 mph as backed up by the recenti'ish think tank that suggested raising the limit to 80. Come to think of it, that is probably perfect from a traffic flow planners point of view.
Another point is that m'way driving is not on the agenda when learning and I can accept that it's not always practicable but for many things that would benefit the country and the individual it seems to me to be a big gap.
And if the Sheeple were to drive on the motorway with the correct etiquette then we would all benefit, not least the government, so it baffles me why it's not on the agenda.
Edited by Uncle John on Saturday 2nd August 23:24
I drove down the A13 to Basildon from London this morning and the people of Essex have some terrible habits.
- People going straight to the outside lane and then not noticing someone approaching them moving faster. Example driver went from l1 to l3 as it widens from 2-3 lanes travelling at 40mph, I was travelling at 50mph. Still in average speed camera zone. The sin here is not using their mirrors and lack of awareness. Inside lanes empty.
- People moving out of an empty lane (middle to l3) to prevent someone passing. This was wilful obstruction, they saw me coming and moved into my lane to block me.
- People who absolutely and totally believe that the outside lane is the place they need to be to move fastest. Was tailgated by a ford galaxy at 70, created a gap of 100 yards and moved into inner lane. He came past at 100+ and tailgated his next victim braking on arrival to a gap of about 5 yards. As he slowed I maintained the same speed and caught him up, moved out to pass a slower moving car. Inner lane goes clear, but galaxy stayed put in the outside lane despite requiring a tailwind and a hill to gain speed. Never comes out of the outside lane, even though the inner lane was largely free.
I used to dislike undertaking but I've come to think of it as the least stressful way of using the motorways. This is usually the emptiest lane. In busy conditions just pick a speed and sit at it, just under the nsl and keep your eyes open for any signs of movement from the sleeping people in l2. You generally get the best visibility, can maintain the speed and generally aren't affected by tailgaters.
I don't know how to get people to move left by default and only use a right hand lane to pass, then move back in again. Traffic volumes don't help, but there's an attitude (especially in the southeast) which needs fixing.
- People going straight to the outside lane and then not noticing someone approaching them moving faster. Example driver went from l1 to l3 as it widens from 2-3 lanes travelling at 40mph, I was travelling at 50mph. Still in average speed camera zone. The sin here is not using their mirrors and lack of awareness. Inside lanes empty.
- People moving out of an empty lane (middle to l3) to prevent someone passing. This was wilful obstruction, they saw me coming and moved into my lane to block me.
- People who absolutely and totally believe that the outside lane is the place they need to be to move fastest. Was tailgated by a ford galaxy at 70, created a gap of 100 yards and moved into inner lane. He came past at 100+ and tailgated his next victim braking on arrival to a gap of about 5 yards. As he slowed I maintained the same speed and caught him up, moved out to pass a slower moving car. Inner lane goes clear, but galaxy stayed put in the outside lane despite requiring a tailwind and a hill to gain speed. Never comes out of the outside lane, even though the inner lane was largely free.
I used to dislike undertaking but I've come to think of it as the least stressful way of using the motorways. This is usually the emptiest lane. In busy conditions just pick a speed and sit at it, just under the nsl and keep your eyes open for any signs of movement from the sleeping people in l2. You generally get the best visibility, can maintain the speed and generally aren't affected by tailgaters.
I don't know how to get people to move left by default and only use a right hand lane to pass, then move back in again. Traffic volumes don't help, but there's an attitude (especially in the southeast) which needs fixing.
People have talked about restricting new drivers to below certain speeds and keeping them off motorways, which seems rather silly as plenty are competent and, after spending a couple of years or so being singled out on the road and bullied for being slow newbies, they'll be heading out onto motorways with no experience of using them or of driving at speed.
I wonder if we could have a two tier licence system. You get a licence for proving yourself competent and safe but, if you want to venture onto motorways and drive after dark or do anything more dangerous than dither round town you have to pass a more advanced test. People who only do local driving need not bother and everybody else is obliged to get some proper lessons on what to do.
We also need to change the attitude people have to driving so it becomes something people take pride in doing well and are too embarrassed to do badly. It's an important life skill, like using a computer, so not knowing how to use a motorway properly should be seen as equally foolish to not knowing how to use Microsoft Office. You learn it or you're an idiot rather than thinking it doesn't matter or it's a laugh and a joke being a bad driver.
I wonder if we could have a two tier licence system. You get a licence for proving yourself competent and safe but, if you want to venture onto motorways and drive after dark or do anything more dangerous than dither round town you have to pass a more advanced test. People who only do local driving need not bother and everybody else is obliged to get some proper lessons on what to do.
We also need to change the attitude people have to driving so it becomes something people take pride in doing well and are too embarrassed to do badly. It's an important life skill, like using a computer, so not knowing how to use a motorway properly should be seen as equally foolish to not knowing how to use Microsoft Office. You learn it or you're an idiot rather than thinking it doesn't matter or it's a laugh and a joke being a bad driver.
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