RE: 1972 Skyline 'Hakosuka' GT-R: Spotted
Discussion
mikEsprit said:
No thanks. It's interesting, but it's also hard to think of any other cars in that price range that wouldn't be preferable to it.
Lot 221 in the same auction might be right up your street. Exactly the same 125~175k USD auction estimate, and two cars for the price of one.What's not to like?
tbc said:
Compare this to new cars they were introducing in Europe/UK in 1972
I know what you mean, but I think it's worth pointing out that the KPGC10 is almost a 'Sixties' car.The C10-series Skyline range - held up a little due to the merger between Prince Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. in 1966 - debuted in August 1968. The very first Skyline GT-R - the four-door 'PGC10' model - debuted in February 1969. The pillarless two-door 'Hard Top' KPGC10 debuted in October 1970.
So, platform-wise at least, this is a Sixties car. With all its bells and whistles (alloy-headed 24 valve twin cam engine with triple side-draught carbs, stainless steel six branch exhaust manifold, transistorised electronic ignition, 5-speed O/D trans, LSD, front disc brakes, semi-trailing arm rear suspension and McPherson strut front & ARBs etc etc) it had a pretty sophisticated spec for a boxy saloon car from any country, let alone late Sixties Japan.
PZR said:
Nealio said:
Paul Walker's character drives one of these in Fast & Furious 5 when they rock up to the Brazilian Favela iirc.
Again (and sorry to nitpick) that car was not a GT-R. Coldfuse said:
PZR said:
Nealio said:
Paul Walker's character drives one of these in Fast & Furious 5 when they rock up to the Brazilian Favela iirc.
Again (and sorry to nitpick) that car was not a GT-R. The full story is out there on the 'net somewhere (I've read about it on the Japanese Nostalgic Car forum I seem to remember), but essentially it was a KGC10 GT or GT-X model (original engine L20A SOHC six) fitted with a 1980s Nissan FJ20 4-cyl engine.
A slightly bizarre conversion.
Currently to be seen pootling around the streets of London as part of the summer influx of overseas visitors to the area:
Mail clicky
Mail clicky
Ah, my Brother is a subject matter expert on these particular cars. He has imported and modified many and knows all the Japanese restorers personally.
I forwarded the headline story to him about the Pebble Beach car and his comments are thus:
Yes that's a real Skyline but there were heaps of the c10 gt-r's made, it's the c110 gtr that is rare. It had different tooling made just for the gtr but they only made 187 as they didn't want to race against the porsche in jtcc because they'd lose, the rare c110 gtr is know as the wolf that lost its fang, the c10 gtr smashed the 911's teeth in and nissan didn't want to tarnish that image..
Apparently there are none of the '187' cars being sold currently and most change hands without advertising for sums unknown.
As a matter of interest my Brother currently has a convertible 240K with a 7 litre motor being installed in it under his house...
I forwarded the headline story to him about the Pebble Beach car and his comments are thus:
Yes that's a real Skyline but there were heaps of the c10 gt-r's made, it's the c110 gtr that is rare. It had different tooling made just for the gtr but they only made 187 as they didn't want to race against the porsche in jtcc because they'd lose, the rare c110 gtr is know as the wolf that lost its fang, the c10 gtr smashed the 911's teeth in and nissan didn't want to tarnish that image..
Apparently there are none of the '187' cars being sold currently and most change hands without advertising for sums unknown.
As a matter of interest my Brother currently has a convertible 240K with a 7 litre motor being installed in it under his house...
robm3 said:
Ah, my Brother is a subject matter expert on these particular cars. He has imported and modified many and knows all the Japanese restorers personally.
I forwarded the headline story to him about the Pebble Beach car and his comments are thus:
Yes that's a real Skyline but there were heaps of the c10 gt-r's made, it's the c110 gtr that is rare. It had different tooling made just for the gtr but they only made 187 as they didn't want to race against the porsche in jtcc because they'd lose, the rare c110 gtr is know as the wolf that lost its fang, the c10 gtr smashed the 911's teeth in and nissan didn't want to tarnish that image..
Apparently there are none of the '187' cars being sold currently and most change hands without advertising for sums unknown.
As a matter of interest my Brother currently has a convertible 240K with a 7 litre motor being installed in it under his house...
Production figures:I forwarded the headline story to him about the Pebble Beach car and his comments are thus:
Yes that's a real Skyline but there were heaps of the c10 gt-r's made, it's the c110 gtr that is rare. It had different tooling made just for the gtr but they only made 187 as they didn't want to race against the porsche in jtcc because they'd lose, the rare c110 gtr is know as the wolf that lost its fang, the c10 gtr smashed the 911's teeth in and nissan didn't want to tarnish that image..
Apparently there are none of the '187' cars being sold currently and most change hands without advertising for sums unknown.
As a matter of interest my Brother currently has a convertible 240K with a 7 litre motor being installed in it under his house...
PGC10 = 832 units
KPGC10 = 1,113 units
KPGC110 = 197 units
Could you ask your brother exactly where and when any C10-series GT-R raced head-to-head with Porsche 911s? I think it will be news to Nissan. The vast majority of the C10 GT-R's 50+ race victories came in the Japanese domestic 'T' and 'TS' class races, and on the rarer occasions where they took part in races that had Porsches up against them, the Porsches were 906s and 910s racing in the 'R' and 'S' classes.
The C10 GT-R's main in-class racing foes were rotary-engined Mazdas and the occasional Isuzu Bellett. No Porsche 911s were harmed in the making of the early GT-R's 'V50' legend.
The real reason the C110-series GT-R was made in such low numbers and didn't have a works race career was that Japan was deeply affected by the consequences of the Yom Kippur War of 1973 and the subsequent OAPEC oil embargo. In late 1973 and on through 1974 Japan suffered what they called the 'Oil Shock', and Japanese domestic car makers came under great pressure to cut back on their works racing efforts, and to stop making 'high performance' models. The KPGC110 was one of the victims: Nissan made a couple of mock up C110 GT-R 'Image Cars' to show what the Works race cars would look like, but went no further.
There are KPGC110 'Ken & Mary' / 'Kenmeri' GT-Rs for sale in Japan if you know where to look...
PZR said:
robm3 said:
Ah, my Brother is a subject matter expert on these particular cars. He has imported and modified many and knows all the Japanese restorers personally.
I forwarded the headline story to him about the Pebble Beach car and his comments are thus:
Yes that's a real Skyline but there were heaps of the c10 gt-r's made, it's the c110 gtr that is rare. It had different tooling made just for the gtr but they only made 187 as they didn't want to race against the porsche in jtcc because they'd lose, the rare c110 gtr is know as the wolf that lost its fang, the c10 gtr smashed the 911's teeth in and nissan didn't want to tarnish that image..
Apparently there are none of the '187' cars being sold currently and most change hands without advertising for sums unknown.
As a matter of interest my Brother currently has a convertible 240K with a 7 litre motor being installed in it under his house...
Production figures:I forwarded the headline story to him about the Pebble Beach car and his comments are thus:
Yes that's a real Skyline but there were heaps of the c10 gt-r's made, it's the c110 gtr that is rare. It had different tooling made just for the gtr but they only made 187 as they didn't want to race against the porsche in jtcc because they'd lose, the rare c110 gtr is know as the wolf that lost its fang, the c10 gtr smashed the 911's teeth in and nissan didn't want to tarnish that image..
Apparently there are none of the '187' cars being sold currently and most change hands without advertising for sums unknown.
As a matter of interest my Brother currently has a convertible 240K with a 7 litre motor being installed in it under his house...
PGC10 = 832 units
KPGC10 = 1,113 units
KPGC110 = 197 units
Could you ask your brother exactly where and when any C10-series GT-R raced head-to-head with Porsche 911s? I think it will be news to Nissan. The vast majority of the C10 GT-R's 50+ race victories came in the Japanese domestic 'T' and 'TS' class races, and on the rarer occasions where they took part in races that had Porsches up against them, the Porsches were 906s and 910s racing in the 'R' and 'S' classes.
The C10 GT-R's main in-class racing foes were rotary-engined Mazdas and the occasional Isuzu Bellett. No Porsche 911s were harmed in the making of the early GT-R's 'V50' legend.
The real reason the C110-series GT-R was made in such low numbers and didn't have a works race career was that Japan was deeply affected by the consequences of the Yom Kippur War of 1973 and the subsequent OAPEC oil embargo. In late 1973 and on through 1974 Japan suffered what they called the 'Oil Shock', and Japanese domestic car makers came under great pressure to cut back on their works racing efforts, and to stop making 'high performance' models. The KPGC110 was one of the victims: Nissan made a couple of mock up C110 GT-R 'Image Cars' to show what the Works race cars would look like, but went no further.
There are KPGC110 'Ken & Mary' / 'Kenmeri' GT-Rs for sale in Japan if you know where to look...
I'll let him know his facts are wrong on the C10 though and I'll get great pleasure in doing so haha (it's a brother thing).
PZR said:
The full story is out there on the 'net somewhere (I've read about it on the Japanese Nostalgic Car forum I seem to remember), but essentially it was a KGC10 GT or GT-X model (original engine L20A SOHC six) fitted with a 1980s Nissan FJ20 4-cyl engine.
Interesting, the FJ20 is a great engine and quite popular with the rally boys down here as a transplant for Mk2 Escorts - as it makes as much power as a BDA with similar character, but costs a lot less to buy and maintain. Also stays eligible for some classic regs due to the age of the engine, despite being from a different manufacturer.But transplanting one into a car that started out as a 6 does seem unusual.
For you FaceBookers out there, there is a lovely collection of Hakosuka at
https://www.facebook.com/hakosukagtr?ref=br_tf
https://www.facebook.com/hakosukagtr?ref=br_tf
http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/2011/01/27/the-kpg...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=...
Easily the best sounding straight 6 ever.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=...
Easily the best sounding straight 6 ever.
Just in case anyone is confused with regard to the 'Hakosuka' nickname:
It just means 'Box Sky(line)'. 'Hako' = 'box' and 'Suka' is the Japanese phonetic abbreviation of 'Skyline'. It's a vernacular nickname that was applied retrospectively, and not a factory-applied term. It refers to the whole C10-series Skyline range, from the short-fronted 4 cylinder cooking models, through the 'wagon' estates with their live rear axles, the basic L-series 6-banger models with single downdraught carbs, the slightly more glamorous 'Hard Top' models and right on up to the range topping PGC10 and KPGC10 'Skyline 2000 GT-Rs'. All of them are 'Hakosukas', but only two models are GT-Rs.
For a lot of people the term 'Hakosuka' equals 'GT-R'. This is not the case. It was only those 1900-odd PGC10s and KPGC10s (out of a total C10-series Skyline production that numbered hundreds of thousands) that created the legend, and only the PGC10s and KPGC10s created the race history which later model GT-Rs had to live up to. Pretty much all the kudos surrounding the 'Hakosuka' trickled down from those GT-R models. It's known and understood in Japan, but not so much elsewhere.
Which is why the KPGC10 in the RM Auctions Pebble Beach event is going to be an interesting litmus test. Putting such a car (even though it's not a 'concours' stock example...) amongst the more mainstream Pebble Beach auction fodder and in front of the kind of people who could buy it on a whim is going to show us something. I'm not entirely sure what it will tell us (I have a feeling that most of the people at the auction won't know what they are looking at and probably couldn't care less either) but at least the PR for the auction has brought the model up as a topic of conversation, and that in itself is not a bad thing.
It just means 'Box Sky(line)'. 'Hako' = 'box' and 'Suka' is the Japanese phonetic abbreviation of 'Skyline'. It's a vernacular nickname that was applied retrospectively, and not a factory-applied term. It refers to the whole C10-series Skyline range, from the short-fronted 4 cylinder cooking models, through the 'wagon' estates with their live rear axles, the basic L-series 6-banger models with single downdraught carbs, the slightly more glamorous 'Hard Top' models and right on up to the range topping PGC10 and KPGC10 'Skyline 2000 GT-Rs'. All of them are 'Hakosukas', but only two models are GT-Rs.
For a lot of people the term 'Hakosuka' equals 'GT-R'. This is not the case. It was only those 1900-odd PGC10s and KPGC10s (out of a total C10-series Skyline production that numbered hundreds of thousands) that created the legend, and only the PGC10s and KPGC10s created the race history which later model GT-Rs had to live up to. Pretty much all the kudos surrounding the 'Hakosuka' trickled down from those GT-R models. It's known and understood in Japan, but not so much elsewhere.
Which is why the KPGC10 in the RM Auctions Pebble Beach event is going to be an interesting litmus test. Putting such a car (even though it's not a 'concours' stock example...) amongst the more mainstream Pebble Beach auction fodder and in front of the kind of people who could buy it on a whim is going to show us something. I'm not entirely sure what it will tell us (I have a feeling that most of the people at the auction won't know what they are looking at and probably couldn't care less either) but at least the PR for the auction has brought the model up as a topic of conversation, and that in itself is not a bad thing.
JohnoVR6 said:
That said, I think I'd prefer one the modified 240Z's that they offer;
http://rockyauto.co.jp/stockcar/profile.cgi?_v=137...
1. Fabuloushttp://rockyauto.co.jp/stockcar/profile.cgi?_v=137...
Edited by JohnoVR6 on Tuesday 5th August 16:21
2. A tidy installation!
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