RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Crow555 said:
With regards the likes of the Leon Cupra, Golf R, M135i, A45 AMG etc., I don't categorise those at hot hatches. Hatch-shaped yes, quick, yes. Fun? Debatable. In essence, they are what the hyper saloon used to be, just now in hatch form. EVO dubbed these 'hyperhatches' (I think in an article covering an RS3, Focus RS mk2 and an Impreza STI hatch) and perhaps the name is enough to distinguish their different driving experience from those of the hot hatch.
Hmmm. I agree with what you're saying, but I'd suggest that "Superhatch" might be a better name than "Hyperhatch", and more in keeping with the equivalent "Supercar"Regarding the original crop of hot hatches not being sold on performance statistics:
I could have found many more examples.
Every single hot hatch of this era was sold on the back of performance figures. This of course was pre-Nurburgring lap times, so instead 0-60mph and top speed reigned supreme.
Secondly, on the point of all hot hatches being too large and having excessive mechanical grip, did the author remember the Twingo 133, Mini Cooper, Suzuki Swift Sport, Fiesta ST and Fiat 500 Abarth amongst others? Yes there are super hatches such as the M135i and Golf R, but there are many smaller hot hatches similar in stature and drive to the originals.
I concur this article is claptrap.
I could have found many more examples.
Every single hot hatch of this era was sold on the back of performance figures. This of course was pre-Nurburgring lap times, so instead 0-60mph and top speed reigned supreme.
Secondly, on the point of all hot hatches being too large and having excessive mechanical grip, did the author remember the Twingo 133, Mini Cooper, Suzuki Swift Sport, Fiesta ST and Fiat 500 Abarth amongst others? Yes there are super hatches such as the M135i and Golf R, but there are many smaller hot hatches similar in stature and drive to the originals.
I concur this article is claptrap.
Olivera said:
Secondly, on the point of all hot hatches being too large and having excessive mechanical grip, did the author remember the Twingo 133, Mini Cooper, Suzuki Swift Sport, Fiesta ST and Fiat 500 Abarth amongst others?
Well, if he didn't then the several pages of replies saying exactly the same have probably reminded him. I'm guessing you haven't read them. 
Now I mainly agree with your comparisons and thoughts in the article, however I think the problem sits elsewhere.
The comparisons you draw are hardly fair. Since when can a 205 GTi be compared with a loaded Megane RS? They don't sit in the same place in the pecking order. You could also say that an original golf GTi realistically should now be compared with a polo GTi if you took size etc into consideration.
I think it's the term. The term hot hatch is far too broad, I mean it covers 17k fiesta STs right through to a 50k A45.
If you want to find cars that share the same DNA as the 205 GTi etc then they do still exist.
The fiesta ST, Clio RS, Swift, Polo GTi are all hot versions of small hatches which normally have boring engines - so yes the recipe still does exist and all these cars are typically more enjoyable to thrash about.
As time has moved on niches have appeared everywhere, and ultimately cars like the Megane RS, Focus RS, Leon Cupra now sit a notch above in their own little niche - don't know what you want to call it.
As for saying the hot hatch of old has gone, you are wrong. You're simply looking at the wrong cars.
Of course the modern equivalents are going to be more comfy and less connected, but this is red tape and general evolution.
You could have written the same article 25 yrs ago saying that a 205 GTi feels too capable compared to an original Mini Cooper S.
The comparisons you draw are hardly fair. Since when can a 205 GTi be compared with a loaded Megane RS? They don't sit in the same place in the pecking order. You could also say that an original golf GTi realistically should now be compared with a polo GTi if you took size etc into consideration.
I think it's the term. The term hot hatch is far too broad, I mean it covers 17k fiesta STs right through to a 50k A45.
If you want to find cars that share the same DNA as the 205 GTi etc then they do still exist.
The fiesta ST, Clio RS, Swift, Polo GTi are all hot versions of small hatches which normally have boring engines - so yes the recipe still does exist and all these cars are typically more enjoyable to thrash about.
As time has moved on niches have appeared everywhere, and ultimately cars like the Megane RS, Focus RS, Leon Cupra now sit a notch above in their own little niche - don't know what you want to call it.
As for saying the hot hatch of old has gone, you are wrong. You're simply looking at the wrong cars.
Of course the modern equivalents are going to be more comfy and less connected, but this is red tape and general evolution.
You could have written the same article 25 yrs ago saying that a 205 GTi feels too capable compared to an original Mini Cooper S.
But I was thinking of something more like the size of a Golf, which seems to be the size of car that people want most as a 1-car garage (where it makes a great deal of sense).We had more fun cars in the past because the limit of manufacturing technology necessitated quite a raw package. Looking back (rose tinted?) the cars were more fun for those that enjoyed driving, but most people just want more "Audification" of cars, and that's what they'll buy when it's available. Not Gt86s.
I wonder how many people, even on this forum, actually value driving dynamics. Too few i believe.
I wonder how many people, even on this forum, actually value driving dynamics. Too few i believe.
I would agree with a lot of what was just said in the article. Everything automotive seems to be getting hugely complicated. Huge power but then putting bigger tyres and all sorts of mechanical and electronic trickery to keep it all in check. I used to drive an early 4 speed 1600 diesel MK2 Golf (no hot hatch at all) the car was light, had skinny tyres and would lift off over steer at the drop of a hat without needing loads of speed. The car was great fun to drive on narrow twisty Irish roads when there was gravel on some corners. I have just bought an e39 525i sport to replace my 316i e36 coupe and it is a great car reasonably quick but there is a simplicity to the 316 that I miss in the e39. Simplicity is good - less can often be more.
I agree with JD here. There are very few brand new cars that I can get excited about as although yes they may be quick round the ring, they don't have that fun factor or soul. The Golf GTI is a prime example, I love the MK1 and MK2 but everything from the MK3 onwards is a little wet and I fear that GTI is simply a marketing slogan and a way to give buyers an ego boost. In terms of the Golf I fear that GTI no longer means what it used too.
Same goes for my motor of choice, the MX5. The MK1 is an absolute blast to drive and whilst the MK3 is more refined and considerably quicker, it's not nearly as much fun to drive.
I've actually scribbled my thoughts on both, feel free to have a read.
Golf GTI
http://trackdayaddict.combustionpunks.co.uk/2013/1...
MX-5 Mk3
http://trackdayaddict.combustionpunks.co.uk/2013/1...
Same goes for my motor of choice, the MX5. The MK1 is an absolute blast to drive and whilst the MK3 is more refined and considerably quicker, it's not nearly as much fun to drive.
I've actually scribbled my thoughts on both, feel free to have a read.
Golf GTI
http://trackdayaddict.combustionpunks.co.uk/2013/1...
MX-5 Mk3
http://trackdayaddict.combustionpunks.co.uk/2013/1...
currybum said:
ORD said:
A manufacturer could quite easily build a lighter version of the shopping cars we all like (maybe about 1150kg) and give it 170bhp and smallish tyres. Barely anyone would buy it.
What like the 1163kg 182ps Fiesta ST?ORD said:
A manufacturer could quite easily build a lighter version of the shopping cars we all like (maybe about 1150kg) and give it 170bhp and smallish tyres. Barely anyone would buy it.
I see this quite a bit and not sure I agree. Honda sold Integras, Peugeot sold Rallyes, Renault sold Williams/172 Cups, Porsche sell GT3s.There will always be a market for focused performace cars that in some ways offer less than the full fat versions and they are always the most revered in the end.
It doesn't have to be at the centre of the brand but how difficult would it be for VW or BMW to take a popular model and do what we all want them to. Perhaps it's more difficult (financially/commercially) than I imagine due to production line restrictions etc.
I think a big problem we have is the new age of engineers that are employed by the car manufactures...
I read motorsport and power train engineering at University and all of the car nuts on that course went into racing and rallying, a few went to JLR.
When I worked at Peugeot, all of the engineers that I met had read automotive engineering (a great course in its own right) but none had ever driven the iconic models, such as the 205, 309, 106 and 306. It appeared that nine of the engineers were really into cars whatsoever and more concerned about ergonomics, hence why we had gems such as the 307, 308, 207 and the 407. - Such a shame.
Chris
I read motorsport and power train engineering at University and all of the car nuts on that course went into racing and rallying, a few went to JLR.
When I worked at Peugeot, all of the engineers that I met had read automotive engineering (a great course in its own right) but none had ever driven the iconic models, such as the 205, 309, 106 and 306. It appeared that nine of the engineers were really into cars whatsoever and more concerned about ergonomics, hence why we had gems such as the 307, 308, 207 and the 407. - Such a shame.
Chris
toohuge said:
I think a big problem we have is the new age of engineers that are employed by the car manufactures...
I read motorsport and power train engineering at University and all of the car nuts on that course went into racing and rallying, a few went to JLR.
When I worked at Peugeot, all of the engineers that I met had read automotive engineering (a great course in its own right) but none had ever driven the iconic models, such as the 205, 309, 106 and 306. It appeared that nine of the engineers were really into cars whatsoever and more concerned about ergonomics, hence why we had gems such as the 307, 308, 207 and the 407. - Such a shame.
Chris
Im currently studying automotive engineering and of my 6 close course mates and I, only 2 of us are what you'd call car enthusiasts who have owned older cars and appreciate steering feel and the like. The other 5 only have slight knowledge and interest in cars and have only ever driven modern 'boring' cars. sad really.I read motorsport and power train engineering at University and all of the car nuts on that course went into racing and rallying, a few went to JLR.
When I worked at Peugeot, all of the engineers that I met had read automotive engineering (a great course in its own right) but none had ever driven the iconic models, such as the 205, 309, 106 and 306. It appeared that nine of the engineers were really into cars whatsoever and more concerned about ergonomics, hence why we had gems such as the 307, 308, 207 and the 407. - Such a shame.
Chris
On another note, all this talk of renaultsport twingos is making me think one thing....
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We need a renaultsport version, with big TURBO stickers on it
As everyone has been saying, if you want hot hatches like those of the old school, buy ones that are the same size as the old ones, not the ones of the same name/class!
before my 2000 & gts turbo I had the original Toyota MR2 1.6 not a hot hatch by any means, it was a D reg and didn't have much power but the handling of this thing for the time period was pretty much right at the top, Autocar stated 'handles better than a Ferrari 328' it taught me how to understand rear wheel drive and wasn't about to bite me if I got it wrong, I think from memory the original Corolla 1.6 was also used by racing clubs as it also gave you the basics of rear wheel drive dynamics.....
Otispunkmeyer said:
"A change of focus
I think the problem with modern hot hatches developed more recently. I imagine "
sort that out.... first sentence makes no sense.
Hi Otispunkmeyer, are you viewing the article on a mobile device or through some unusual means? Genuinely interested as it must be displaying incorrectly - "A change of Focus" is the heading.I think the problem with modern hot hatches developed more recently. I imagine "
sort that out.... first sentence makes no sense.
thanks,
JD
JamesHayward said:
they don't have that fun factor or soul.
The Golf GTI is a prime example, I love the MK1 and MK2 but everything from the MK3 onwards is a little wet and I fear that GTI is simply a marketing slogan and a way to give buyers an ego boost. In terms of the Golf I fear that GTI no longer means what it used too.
Personally all this talk of a car having soul and what not is utter guff you get good cars you get bad cars as far as I'm concerned. The Golf GTI is a prime example, I love the MK1 and MK2 but everything from the MK3 onwards is a little wet and I fear that GTI is simply a marketing slogan and a way to give buyers an ego boost. In terms of the Golf I fear that GTI no longer means what it used too.
What so many people appear to overlook is that in the 80/90s we had rapid improvement in car technology and build quality which consumers wanted more of. Hence if VW continued trying to sell mk2 golfs until the late 90s it would have been slated as a old design, not having creature comforts that consumers want, not having the saftey devices that were demanded.
All manufactures (perhaps not Catheram & lotus for example) were subject to this and if you wanted to remain competitive and shift the volumes required to be profitable you had to build for the majority.
My take on it is that today we have some great hot hatches, but we also have a clutch of super hatches, with huge horsepowers and the gubbins needed to keep it all in check. These cars are very fast, but not really much fun, as the speed needed to make them "work" is so high that most drivers don't have the skills to do it or the roads to do it on. Anything that needs 100mph on the clock to start feeling special is too fast for its own good. This current crop of super hatches are only good for track days and showing off to your mates in a straight line.
I was brought up on 80's hot hatches and have great memories of trying to keep my unruly R5 Turbo Raider,(the blue ones), on the road, with it trying to kill me on a regular basis. That was fun. I currently drive a GT86, loads of fun, but I have to work at it, it's far from perfect, but that's the charm, I have to drive round it's imperfections. Hot hatches have lost their way from a drivers perspective, the braggers have to buy the big horsepower versions to retain their cred, but the drivers buy the unfancied stuff because it's a better bet. Posters mention the Swift, Twingo, Fiesta, etc,that's where it's really at, the big stuff is too powerful and bloated, those are just quick cars. Each to their own though, we should all be celebrating the massive choice we currently have, there's a cracking car out there for everyone.
I was brought up on 80's hot hatches and have great memories of trying to keep my unruly R5 Turbo Raider,(the blue ones), on the road, with it trying to kill me on a regular basis. That was fun. I currently drive a GT86, loads of fun, but I have to work at it, it's far from perfect, but that's the charm, I have to drive round it's imperfections. Hot hatches have lost their way from a drivers perspective, the braggers have to buy the big horsepower versions to retain their cred, but the drivers buy the unfancied stuff because it's a better bet. Posters mention the Swift, Twingo, Fiesta, etc,that's where it's really at, the big stuff is too powerful and bloated, those are just quick cars. Each to their own though, we should all be celebrating the massive choice we currently have, there's a cracking car out there for everyone.
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