RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
JonRB said:
Crow555 said:
With regards the likes of the Leon Cupra, Golf R, M135i, A45 AMG etc., I don't categorise those at hot hatches. Hatch-shaped yes, quick, yes. Fun? Debatable. In essence, they are what the hyper saloon used to be, just now in hatch form. EVO dubbed these 'hyperhatches' (I think in an article covering an RS3, Focus RS mk2 and an Impreza STI hatch) and perhaps the name is enough to distinguish their different driving experience from those of the hot hatch.
Hmmm. I agree with what you're saying, but I'd suggest that "Superhatch" might be a better name than "Hyperhatch", and more in keeping with the equivalent "Supercar"We have entered the super-hatch era from 2013 onwards.
The Golf R, A45 AMG and others are leading the way.
Two years from now, if you own any car that does not get to 60mph in under 4.5secs, it will feel very slow
Shurv said:
My take on it is that today we have some great hot hatches, but we also have a clutch of super hatches, with huge horsepowers and the gubbins needed to keep it all in check. These cars are very fast, but not really much fun, as the speed needed to make them "work" is so high that most drivers don't have the skills to do it or the roads to do it on. Anything that needs 100mph on the clock to start feeling special is too fast for its own good. This current crop of super hatches are only good for track days and showing off to your mates in a straight line.
I was brought up on 80's hot hatches and have great memories of trying to keep my unruly R5 Turbo Raider,(the blue ones), on the road, with it trying to kill me on a regular basis. That was fun. I currently drive a GT86, loads of fun, but I have to work at it, it's far from perfect, but that's the charm, I have to drive round it's imperfections. Hot hatches have lost their way from a drivers perspective, the braggers have to buy the big horsepower versions to retain their cred, but the drivers buy the unfancied stuff because it's a better bet. Posters mention the Swift, Twingo, Fiesta, etc,that's where it's really at, the big stuff is too powerful and bloated, those are just quick cars. Each to their own though, we should all be celebrating the massive choice we currently have, there's a cracking car out there for everyone.
Spot on. Well done that man.I was brought up on 80's hot hatches and have great memories of trying to keep my unruly R5 Turbo Raider,(the blue ones), on the road, with it trying to kill me on a regular basis. That was fun. I currently drive a GT86, loads of fun, but I have to work at it, it's far from perfect, but that's the charm, I have to drive round it's imperfections. Hot hatches have lost their way from a drivers perspective, the braggers have to buy the big horsepower versions to retain their cred, but the drivers buy the unfancied stuff because it's a better bet. Posters mention the Swift, Twingo, Fiesta, etc,that's where it's really at, the big stuff is too powerful and bloated, those are just quick cars. Each to their own though, we should all be celebrating the massive choice we currently have, there's a cracking car out there for everyone.
l354uge said:
On another note, all this talk of renaultsport twingos is making me think one thing....
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We need a renaultsport version, with big TURBO stickers on it
You mean like the mid-engined Twingo Twin'Run? We need a renaultsport version, with big TURBO stickers on it
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
Edited by JonRB on Thursday 7th August 16:57
JonRB said:
You mean like the mid-engined Twingo Twin'Run?
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
Well using a megane v6 race car as a chassis is just cheating and hardly mass production friendly!http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
But something that looks awesome like that, with a 158hp turbo engine and a bit of lairyness about it and it will be amazing...
SmartVenom said:
Exactly. To me the single biggest factor nowadays is tyres.
My 205 GTI doesn't move around like an 80s 205, if I stuck dodgy chinese tyres on I'm sure I could re-create the original handling, but I'm not convinced I want to.
When I put a pair of no-name tyres on the back of my race MR2 at the end of a test session it certainly made for a more lively car. (It was 3 seconds a lap slower around Brands Indy circuit though).
Go hire one at the Nordschleife from Rent 4 Ring - they fit 15's onto them as part of their track preparation of these wee carsMy 205 GTI doesn't move around like an 80s 205, if I stuck dodgy chinese tyres on I'm sure I could re-create the original handling, but I'm not convinced I want to.
When I put a pair of no-name tyres on the back of my race MR2 at the end of a test session it certainly made for a more lively car. (It was 3 seconds a lap slower around Brands Indy circuit though).
Edited by SmartVenom on Thursday 7th August 14:35
l354uge said:
Im currently studying automotive engineering and of my 6 close course mates and I, only 2 of us are what you'd call car enthusiasts who have owned older cars and appreciate steering feel and the like. The other 5 only have slight knowledge and interest in cars and have only ever driven modern 'boring' cars. sad really.
On another note, all this talk of renaultsport twingos is making me think one thing....
We need a renaultsport version, with big TURBO stickers on it
As everyone has been saying, if you want hot hatches like those of the old school, buy ones that are the same size as the old ones, not the ones of the same name/class!
Maxi Turbo 2, ooooooooooooohhhhh! Gorgeous On another note, all this talk of renaultsport twingos is making me think one thing....
We need a renaultsport version, with big TURBO stickers on it
As everyone has been saying, if you want hot hatches like those of the old school, buy ones that are the same size as the old ones, not the ones of the same name/class!
RIP THE HOT HATCH: TELL ME I'M WRONG
Hot hatches were better when they were worse - so says new boy James
Couldn't you same about Supercars though?
When I was a lad the Ferrari 308GTB was a supercar, just because everyone went around in Cortinas and Escorts and Allegros. When you saw one it was very rare, it also had a performance differential far in excess of the run of the mill cars.
It still looks stunning
Now the difference between cheaper cars and the Ferrari or similar ilk has got less, so Ferrari and others have to pump up the cars to extreme amounts just to maintain the gap. Lucky for the drivers modern electronics help them out with this insanity. And they still do not drive them to the limits.
Blame modern tyres. It's the syphilis that goes to the brain that is spoiling it all.
Hot hatches were better when they were worse - so says new boy James
Couldn't you same about Supercars though?
When I was a lad the Ferrari 308GTB was a supercar, just because everyone went around in Cortinas and Escorts and Allegros. When you saw one it was very rare, it also had a performance differential far in excess of the run of the mill cars.
It still looks stunning
Now the difference between cheaper cars and the Ferrari or similar ilk has got less, so Ferrari and others have to pump up the cars to extreme amounts just to maintain the gap. Lucky for the drivers modern electronics help them out with this insanity. And they still do not drive them to the limits.
Blame modern tyres. It's the syphilis that goes to the brain that is spoiling it all.
Is part of the problem these days that some hot hatches don't actually look that hot, mostly because even the cooking versions have to look hot for the marketing bods.
There was a world of a difference back in the day between a 205GTi and say a 205 GT - much more so than say a Fiesta Zetec and a Fiesta ST today.
Made the 80s hot hatches seem a little bit more special, and many of those today rather indifferent.
There was a world of a difference back in the day between a 205GTi and say a 205 GT - much more so than say a Fiesta Zetec and a Fiesta ST today.
Made the 80s hot hatches seem a little bit more special, and many of those today rather indifferent.
l354uge said:
But something that looks awesome like that, with a 158hp turbo engine and a bit of lairyness about it and it will be amazing...
158 hp would be a dream, but I can't imagine they will get that much out of the current 0.9 triple or that they'll get budget to adapt a different engine. Would be sensational really, but doubt it is going to happen.Still can be a cracker with 110 - 130 hp. On paper the new Twingo is "da bomb" for a new (what ever temp) hatch. RWD, something like 45/55 weight distribution (guessed), weight ca. 0.9 - 1.0t.
And even in the current 90 hp form ... on paper the Twingo is really very close to the specs of a Porsche 912!
What it all comes down to is how much leeway the calibration and setup engineers are getting. I doubt it is very much at all for the 70/90 hp versions. And I hope it is a lot more for the Renault Sport version
.Good topic and replies but already covered many times. The most recent was not long ago at all...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I realise just how lucky (privileged possibly?) I was to be a late 80’s early 90’s multiple hot hatch owner, so much fun for so few pounds, or so it seemed at the time! Haven’t driven anything that gives as much driving pleasure as my 5GT Turbo, all the modern stuff I have tried is all very nice, but definitely very detached, wafting along in a kind of high speed luxury blur. Then you look at just how fast your going and how faster you have to go to have er 'fun'. OK the cars were built like biscuit tins and lots of plastic bits fell off but... Probably if I drove any of my 80/90's HH cars now I would be horrified, but at the time!!!
Funny enough when the 5GT went wrong (not that often actually) the garage gave me a “5 Campus” as a temp car.... massive difference... (kind of!)
BTW My first post here, long time lurker, great forum, and this article achieved the desired result.... lots of hits and a new member (me) so result I say!
Funny enough when the 5GT went wrong (not that often actually) the garage gave me a “5 Campus” as a temp car.... massive difference... (kind of!)
BTW My first post here, long time lurker, great forum, and this article achieved the desired result.... lots of hits and a new member (me) so result I say!
The hot hatches demise seems to be predicted every year!
I know the point is smaller, lighter, 'neutral' cars feel more exciting but you can still buy cars a bit like that, and you can make any car handle better.
I think the 'problem' for keen drivers isn't really the cars, it's the way they are setup.
For example the Abarth 500 is about the same weight and power as a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v! I also think it looks good, but the suspension and steering have been criticised.
Part of the reason for this is that safety is now a priority for the manufacturers. I think this is a good thing because as Top Gear shows an average driver isn't great in a panic situation or on the limit!
Manufacturers know a 'neutral' handling is more likely to spin, especially in the wet.
I'm sure they realise some enthusiasts want smaller, 'neutral' hot hatches but they also don't want legal problems or bad publicity. Even with modern stability control it's reactive and if a tyre slides off the road it's too late. It's also a bit tricky trying to market 'neutral' handling as being a good thing and something people want.
I think if you want a 'neutral' car seek advice from those who know what works and adjust the setup until it's right for you.
I know the point is smaller, lighter, 'neutral' cars feel more exciting but you can still buy cars a bit like that, and you can make any car handle better.
I think the 'problem' for keen drivers isn't really the cars, it's the way they are setup.
For example the Abarth 500 is about the same weight and power as a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v! I also think it looks good, but the suspension and steering have been criticised.
Part of the reason for this is that safety is now a priority for the manufacturers. I think this is a good thing because as Top Gear shows an average driver isn't great in a panic situation or on the limit!
Manufacturers know a 'neutral' handling is more likely to spin, especially in the wet.
I'm sure they realise some enthusiasts want smaller, 'neutral' hot hatches but they also don't want legal problems or bad publicity. Even with modern stability control it's reactive and if a tyre slides off the road it's too late. It's also a bit tricky trying to market 'neutral' handling as being a good thing and something people want.
I think if you want a 'neutral' car seek advice from those who know what works and adjust the setup until it's right for you.
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