RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
as a broke 20 something I agree with this arcticle and think that 'hot hatches' are not what they used to be with golf gti's costing nigh on 30k they are out of the price reach of many.
i love a bit of old french tat as much as the next PH'er and would have a 205 / 106 / 306 gti at any given chance i also quite like the xsara vts.
a mate of mine has a fiesta st mk6, i thought it wouldnt be fast or that great but it does more than the numbers suggest and is a good laugh. and a good'un can be had for 3k.
i love a bit of old french tat as much as the next PH'er and would have a 205 / 106 / 306 gti at any given chance i also quite like the xsara vts.
a mate of mine has a fiesta st mk6, i thought it wouldnt be fast or that great but it does more than the numbers suggest and is a good laugh. and a good'un can be had for 3k.
The problem is too much BHP across the board. Supercars used to have 300bhp. Now that's a (fairly) hot hatch.
And part of the fun of cars like my old R5 Turbo was the sensation that the car was built of biscuit tins.
The yearning for simpler, more enjoyable cars is the reason people keep Classics in their garage. My MG Midget recently came back from having some work done and the mechanic who delivered it had a huge grin on his face. He couldn't believe that something that old could be so much fun at such low speeds.
And part of the fun of cars like my old R5 Turbo was the sensation that the car was built of biscuit tins.
The yearning for simpler, more enjoyable cars is the reason people keep Classics in their garage. My MG Midget recently came back from having some work done and the mechanic who delivered it had a huge grin on his face. He couldn't believe that something that old could be so much fun at such low speeds.
I thought it was an interesting article and tend to agree with the point being made.
James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
ChocolateFrog said:
Haven't we done this to death?
I think we all basically agree, however give 100 people the choice between the latest Fiesta ST and an XR2i as their only vehicle and see how many choose retro.
I wouldn't.
reliability is the only plus point for modern stuff for me (given I don't do mega mileage)I think we all basically agree, however give 100 people the choice between the latest Fiesta ST and an XR2i as their only vehicle and see how many choose retro.
I wouldn't.
a very large plus point I would concede
Hot hatches do exist, people are just looking in the wrong place. The Golf GTI is no longer a hot hatch, because it is no longer the small shopping car. Same with the Clio, the Fiesta etc. You need to look at the smallest of the range, not the lardy family cars dressed up as hatches to make middle aged men think they are 20 when they take their kids to music lessons or some such.
The Renaultsport Twingo was far more like an old school hot hatch, same with the Fiat 500 Arbath. Small, light, cheapish, fun. But now people call them warm because they don't have as much power as the lardy cars middle aged men drive.
The Renaultsport Twingo was far more like an old school hot hatch, same with the Fiat 500 Arbath. Small, light, cheapish, fun. But now people call them warm because they don't have as much power as the lardy cars middle aged men drive.
Surely this topic / article was meant to start a debate / discussion and wasn't presented to the PH massif' as a piece of GCSE English coursework for review?
I mean, come on, if I read this discussion and I wasn't already a member here I probably wouldn't bother signing up, all the negative comments about how it is written seem to come from butt-hurt keyboard warriors who seem to think they could have done a better job if they weren't so feckless/lazy/unmotivated.
Back to the article.
Newer cars are way more boring. The root of this is that modern cars are too fast and the handling is setup to suit even the most hand-fisted of drivers. Driving is becoming less something you can be skilled at and more something you are just qualified to do. Have a license? You're basically Seb Loeb then, off you go with your nannying electronics and no understanding of what the word 'apex' means.
Rant over.
I mean, come on, if I read this discussion and I wasn't already a member here I probably wouldn't bother signing up, all the negative comments about how it is written seem to come from butt-hurt keyboard warriors who seem to think they could have done a better job if they weren't so feckless/lazy/unmotivated.
Back to the article.
Newer cars are way more boring. The root of this is that modern cars are too fast and the handling is setup to suit even the most hand-fisted of drivers. Driving is becoming less something you can be skilled at and more something you are just qualified to do. Have a license? You're basically Seb Loeb then, off you go with your nannying electronics and no understanding of what the word 'apex' means.
Rant over.
Writing as a chap with a 2014 Golf R parked outside my office, glinting in the sunshine, I would like to confirm that the Hot Hatchback is indeed very much alive, and well.
I've had a few over the years, hatches, not Golfs. Ranging from luke warm 1st Generation Coopers with 115bhp, up to a Cooper S that I'd subjected to a certain degree of tweakery, and when I moved it on, was putting out around 225bhp. Now, my daily drive 5-door Golf sports 300bhp.
A lot has changed since the era of the Peugeot 205 and Mk1 GTi, mostly born out of legislation, but also a great deal of consumer-led focus on having every conceivable gadget crammed into a car. So the legislation bit... We all know now that cars have to be safe. Hot hatches are based on much more humble underpinnings, and share their components with cars that will ferry the wife and children to Sainsbury's. While us petrol heads are happy to take certain risks and drive vehicles like Caterhams with no regard for safety, hatchbacks have to get the automatic 5-star safety tick. This means they now need the complete array of airbags, stability systems, impact beams, crash avoidance systems, as well as the usual ABS. The 205 didn't have to cope with any of that.
Then you have the consumer-led demand for in car technology. People want their Fiesta to sync to their fruit phone of choice and stream music. This means that when you buy the ST version, it has that fitted too.
Take my Golf R for instance... as standard it comes with Xenons, Radar Adaptive Cruise Control, Collision avoidance with auto braking, front and rear park assist, dual zone climate, MP3/Phone connectivity - plus some other kit I've likely forgotten.
Despite all this kit, and the 1476kg curb weight, it gets to 62mph in 5 seconds. Roll the clock back a few years, and that's a comparable time to a Ferrari 456, Carrera 4 (996) or the DB7. Performance of the super sports cars from yesteryear can now be had in a 5-door Golf.
So, the Hot Hatch isn't dead. Just the conundrum of constantly having to meet even more restrictive safety legislation, emissions regulations, whilst also ensuring the cars feature all the latest technology is giving the designers and engineers a bit of a headache. But they are constantly working, and the car companies are constantly investing in ensuring that their new car is not only quicker, but that they remain engaging.
I will admit that the current crop of new cars will never match the 'originals' for driver involvement. In the same way that if Ford engineered a new 300HP rear-wheel drive Focus, it wouldn't be as good as a MK1 Escort in terms of feel and control. Old cars with their direct steering and lack of by-wire electronics will always win over todays tech laden cars.
Occasionally though some gems are born. The Fiesta ST being the most recent to spring to mind. Ford have a great reputation for engineering an engaging chassis setup, and the Fiesta has been crying out for more power for years. They could have given it more, but on balance I think they got it just about right. Certainly cars like the A45 AMG show that outright power isn't everything, which makes me wonder what VWs next creation will be like, the R400. A 400bhp version of the R? It sounds bonkers and insane to the point where I'm not sure how drivable it will be. But I admire them for doing it, and for keeping the Hot hatch breed alive.
I've had a few over the years, hatches, not Golfs. Ranging from luke warm 1st Generation Coopers with 115bhp, up to a Cooper S that I'd subjected to a certain degree of tweakery, and when I moved it on, was putting out around 225bhp. Now, my daily drive 5-door Golf sports 300bhp.
A lot has changed since the era of the Peugeot 205 and Mk1 GTi, mostly born out of legislation, but also a great deal of consumer-led focus on having every conceivable gadget crammed into a car. So the legislation bit... We all know now that cars have to be safe. Hot hatches are based on much more humble underpinnings, and share their components with cars that will ferry the wife and children to Sainsbury's. While us petrol heads are happy to take certain risks and drive vehicles like Caterhams with no regard for safety, hatchbacks have to get the automatic 5-star safety tick. This means they now need the complete array of airbags, stability systems, impact beams, crash avoidance systems, as well as the usual ABS. The 205 didn't have to cope with any of that.
Then you have the consumer-led demand for in car technology. People want their Fiesta to sync to their fruit phone of choice and stream music. This means that when you buy the ST version, it has that fitted too.
Take my Golf R for instance... as standard it comes with Xenons, Radar Adaptive Cruise Control, Collision avoidance with auto braking, front and rear park assist, dual zone climate, MP3/Phone connectivity - plus some other kit I've likely forgotten.
Despite all this kit, and the 1476kg curb weight, it gets to 62mph in 5 seconds. Roll the clock back a few years, and that's a comparable time to a Ferrari 456, Carrera 4 (996) or the DB7. Performance of the super sports cars from yesteryear can now be had in a 5-door Golf.
So, the Hot Hatch isn't dead. Just the conundrum of constantly having to meet even more restrictive safety legislation, emissions regulations, whilst also ensuring the cars feature all the latest technology is giving the designers and engineers a bit of a headache. But they are constantly working, and the car companies are constantly investing in ensuring that their new car is not only quicker, but that they remain engaging.
I will admit that the current crop of new cars will never match the 'originals' for driver involvement. In the same way that if Ford engineered a new 300HP rear-wheel drive Focus, it wouldn't be as good as a MK1 Escort in terms of feel and control. Old cars with their direct steering and lack of by-wire electronics will always win over todays tech laden cars.
Occasionally though some gems are born. The Fiesta ST being the most recent to spring to mind. Ford have a great reputation for engineering an engaging chassis setup, and the Fiesta has been crying out for more power for years. They could have given it more, but on balance I think they got it just about right. Certainly cars like the A45 AMG show that outright power isn't everything, which makes me wonder what VWs next creation will be like, the R400. A 400bhp version of the R? It sounds bonkers and insane to the point where I'm not sure how drivable it will be. But I admire them for doing it, and for keeping the Hot hatch breed alive.
JD PH said:
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
Come on now, don't sit on the fence! Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
I'll chalk that up as a vote for "James is wrong" then.
P.S. I think you mean heroes, not hero's
currybum said:
I think that sometimes the rose tinted glasses over-inflate how good those cars were, .
Exactly. I have always been a hot hatch fan, and owned quite a few; I had clio 172 when it was new - loved that car (apart from it's unreliability), and several hot hatches along the way. I now have the new Fiesta ST, and enjoy it (possibly more). I recently had a drive in one my pal's clio 182. As I got in, I was quite excited at the prospect given my oh-so fond memories of my 172. I drive off, it was instantly familiar, but as I pressed on, it was somewhat disappointing. His car was a good well cared for tidy example, but it just did not sparkle as I remembered. With the 182 and the ST sitting on my drive, I'd go for the ST every time. I also have an elise sitting in my garage, which is epic fun, but have to confess, sometimes I'll take the ST for a blast, so, the hot hatch is not dead as far as I'm concerned.Would agree on the comments that say the golf / focus sized hot hatches are getting way too pricey and loaded with tech; Fiesta size is where the accessible fun is now.
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