RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
MarshPhantom said:
The super cheap Renault 5 Turbo got to sixty in about 7 secs, the old M3 in 6.9.
And a W124 300E (considered a pretty fast exec barge in its time) was around 8 secs. Perhaps that's part of the missing appeal? You need a lot of power to trouble the average repmobile today. Probably 160+ hp (and FI torque) to just keep up. And then you end up with performance on a level that's better explored on track.
Now small cars have become more powerful over the years as well. And as they are beginning to get lighter again, we'll soon have the performance of original hot hatches back. But they won't have the driver involvement due to the way they are set up and calibrated.
Question is, does anybody care? Apparently the manufacturers don't seem to think there is a big market. Else VW would not have canned the Up GT, Peugeot would make a 108 GTi, Mazda would build a 2 MPS (that could be lovely with their 2.0 NA, the original Clio Williams recipe
), Fiat would give the Abarth treatment to the Panda... Biggest hope is probably Renault Sport making something really cool with the new Twingo. Don't have that much faith in Brabus and the 44. I hope I'm wrong, but they'll probably just bump up the power and stick wheels on that will be way to large.
Owned and drove several in the day - and some didn't quite live up to their reputations
Alfasud - in hatch form had been ruined as later versions were stupidly overgeared. Early cars - 1300Ti were amazing- terrific grip, astonishingly good brakes and compliant ride. Felt like driving a baby Ferrari (and yes I have driven the real thing).
205 GTI- so nearly perfect but spoiled by steering weight under heavy cornering and never felt as quick as it actually was.
AX GT - journalists loved it but it was the worst car I have ever owned. Airfix kit build, hideous thrashy engine, stupidly small seats for my frame and gritty gearshift most of the time. Great grip and good ride but everything else a bloody joke
VW Golf GTi Mk 1 - overrated. Noisy , uncomfortable, brakes fine for a car with a quarter the power but useless for the GTi. Terrible ride and almost completely characterless.
GTi Mk 2- what an improvement . Superb ride, grip, brakes, cabin . Grown up car which was formidably competent . 16v quick but preferred gruntier 8v
5GT Turbo - bonkers cabin, silly amounts of go spoiled by bad turbo lag
Uno Turbo-had two and adored them. Awful ride , abrupt clutch whose cable would snap every 3 months , poor electrics but great cabin and seats and utterly crazily quick . The figures in the mags didn't do it justice - both mine were just light years faster than Golfs and Pugs - until the bends anyway .
Best- early Alfasud Ti
Alfasud - in hatch form had been ruined as later versions were stupidly overgeared. Early cars - 1300Ti were amazing- terrific grip, astonishingly good brakes and compliant ride. Felt like driving a baby Ferrari (and yes I have driven the real thing).
205 GTI- so nearly perfect but spoiled by steering weight under heavy cornering and never felt as quick as it actually was.
AX GT - journalists loved it but it was the worst car I have ever owned. Airfix kit build, hideous thrashy engine, stupidly small seats for my frame and gritty gearshift most of the time. Great grip and good ride but everything else a bloody joke
VW Golf GTi Mk 1 - overrated. Noisy , uncomfortable, brakes fine for a car with a quarter the power but useless for the GTi. Terrible ride and almost completely characterless.
GTi Mk 2- what an improvement . Superb ride, grip, brakes, cabin . Grown up car which was formidably competent . 16v quick but preferred gruntier 8v
5GT Turbo - bonkers cabin, silly amounts of go spoiled by bad turbo lag
Uno Turbo-had two and adored them. Awful ride , abrupt clutch whose cable would snap every 3 months , poor electrics but great cabin and seats and utterly crazily quick . The figures in the mags didn't do it justice - both mine were just light years faster than Golfs and Pugs - until the bends anyway .
Best- early Alfasud Ti
Most of the cars mentioned in the article I would class as super hatches. There are still plenty of lower powered small hatches around which get the balance of real world performance and fun right, the modern equivalents of the 80s classics in the article - think Fiesta ST, Swift sport, Abarth 500, Cooper S, Twingo RS, Polo GTI/Fabia VRS/Ibiza Cupra etc. None will feel as raw as the 80s stuff for obvious reasons! Definitely disagree that the hot hatch is RIP, although manufacturers should do more, would love to see an Up! GT or a 108/C1/Aygo GTi.
Sub 1000 kilos 200bhp and a limited slip diff makes perfect sense for a track weapon IMHO.
Ah a MK2 3 door 16V Golf GTI with 200bhp and a Quaiffe fits the bill nicely.
Brilliant for the road an track.....shame it didn't come with 200bhp and a diff out of the factory (139bhp doh) but what I did was to install a good 2 litre 9a VAG block balanced of course and a set of Schrick split duration cams modded Kjet fuelling, a Dave Crissel ported and polished head...via TSR Performance, G60 brakes,Eibach suspension and ARB's and some sticky Dunlop Direzzas!
Now it fullfills all of my track excursions and I drive it every day in the summer months but it still looks factory fresh and OE on it's BBS 15 inch alloys. My particular example also has a shortened final drive which is brill for track.
Owned 2 350 bhp MK5 GTI Edition 30's with all the right bits....been there.....very quick but too heavy unless you strip it out and nowhere near the feel as a track weapon as a proper MK2. Never did replicate track times at different circuits between this and my MK2 16V.
MK1 GTI with a 16V transplant was great in it's day.....thats what BRM aka Brian Ricketts and GTI Engineering were doing in the 80'S and 90'S......power to weight is key as well as running costs for track excursions unless you have deep pockets to run a GTR, 911GT3 or newer M3's.
Ah a MK2 3 door 16V Golf GTI with 200bhp and a Quaiffe fits the bill nicely.
Brilliant for the road an track.....shame it didn't come with 200bhp and a diff out of the factory (139bhp doh) but what I did was to install a good 2 litre 9a VAG block balanced of course and a set of Schrick split duration cams modded Kjet fuelling, a Dave Crissel ported and polished head...via TSR Performance, G60 brakes,Eibach suspension and ARB's and some sticky Dunlop Direzzas!
Now it fullfills all of my track excursions and I drive it every day in the summer months but it still looks factory fresh and OE on it's BBS 15 inch alloys. My particular example also has a shortened final drive which is brill for track.
Owned 2 350 bhp MK5 GTI Edition 30's with all the right bits....been there.....very quick but too heavy unless you strip it out and nowhere near the feel as a track weapon as a proper MK2. Never did replicate track times at different circuits between this and my MK2 16V.
MK1 GTI with a 16V transplant was great in it's day.....thats what BRM aka Brian Ricketts and GTI Engineering were doing in the 80'S and 90'S......power to weight is key as well as running costs for track excursions unless you have deep pockets to run a GTR, 911GT3 or newer M3's.
Edited by Msportman on Saturday 9th August 23:11
Northerndubber said:
I agree, The Caterham 160 (yes, i know not a hot hatch!) proves this.
Simple, inexpensive, fast enough & will put a grin on your chops at relatively low speed!
Showing my age here but I'm pretty sure Stirling Moss said something similar about his A35 van. I think it might have been "everywhere sideways at 30mph". The road safety depts here in Oz love all these new electronic gadgets on cars, makes them safer you know...... Simple, inexpensive, fast enough & will put a grin on your chops at relatively low speed!
VYT said:
Showing my age here but I'm pretty sure Stirling Moss said something similar about his A35 van. I think it might have been "everywhere sideways at 30mph".
I think that was James Hunt, he ran one when he was starting out as a racer, learn't to drift safely in it and slept in the back at racetracks to save on hotel bills when money was tight.https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1967-austin-a-...
Whilst I agree with some of this article, there is still plenty of fun to be had in the hot hatch sector. I have owned some hot hatch legends over the years including; an AX GT, 205 GTI, 106 GTI, Clio 172 CUP, an EP3 Civic Type R and now a Mountune Fiesta ST2.
Whilst the Fiesta is a world away from my 205, I felt the same when I purchased my 106. The fact is, we all crave phone connectivity now, electric this and electric that; this is modern life. At around 1100kg, I feel that Ford have done a fabulous job in building such a well equipped driver's car.
My 205 had quite frankly ludicrous levels of grip, and so now, does my fiesta. Yes it's a little more inert, a little more 'damped from the experience' perhaps but it still remains a fabulous driving tool which is beautifully balanced but capable of soaking up larger distances.
Who here can remember running around their car in the rain to lock the doors & tailgate pre central locking? Carrying a sleeve full of CDs around? Those days are gone which is for the better.
Before I am accused of being of a sissy, my summer/track car is an S1 Elise which is about as raw as you can get. Different context maybe, but I still thoroughly enjoy my ST2 after a few days in my Elise... So it can't be that bad eh?
Whilst the Fiesta is a world away from my 205, I felt the same when I purchased my 106. The fact is, we all crave phone connectivity now, electric this and electric that; this is modern life. At around 1100kg, I feel that Ford have done a fabulous job in building such a well equipped driver's car.
My 205 had quite frankly ludicrous levels of grip, and so now, does my fiesta. Yes it's a little more inert, a little more 'damped from the experience' perhaps but it still remains a fabulous driving tool which is beautifully balanced but capable of soaking up larger distances.
Who here can remember running around their car in the rain to lock the doors & tailgate pre central locking? Carrying a sleeve full of CDs around? Those days are gone which is for the better.
Before I am accused of being of a sissy, my summer/track car is an S1 Elise which is about as raw as you can get. Different context maybe, but I still thoroughly enjoy my ST2 after a few days in my Elise... So it can't be that bad eh?
Kolbenkopp said:
And as they are beginning to get lighter again, we'll soon have the performance of original hot hatches back. But they won't have the driver involvement due to the way they are set up and calibrated.
How are they set-up? Have you driven a Fiesta ST. Very transparent grip levels and loads of lift off oversteer, way more than the 80's hot hatches.tammy001p said:
Whilst I agree with some of this article, there is still plenty of fun to be had in the hot hatch sector. I have owned some hot hatch legends over the years including; an AX GT, 205 GTI, 106 GTI, Clio 172 CUP, an EP3 Civic Type R and now a Mountune Fiesta ST2.
Whilst the Fiesta is a world away from my 205, I felt the same when I purchased my 106. The fact is, we all crave phone connectivity now, electric this and electric that; this is modern life. At around 1100kg, I feel that Ford have done a fabulous job in building such a well equipped driver's car.
My 205 had quite frankly ludicrous levels of grip, and so now, does my fiesta. Yes it's a little more inert, a little more 'damped from the experience' perhaps but it still remains a fabulous driving tool which is beautifully balanced but capable of soaking up larger distances.
Who here can remember running around their car in the rain to lock the doors & tailgate pre central locking? Carrying a sleeve full of CDs around? Those days are gone which is for the better.
Before I am accused of being of a sissy, my summer/track car is an S1 Elise which is about as raw as you can get. Different context maybe, but I still thoroughly enjoy my ST2 after a few days in my Elise... So it can't be that bad eh?
Yep I have to agree about the ickle Fiesta.....great little car.....I was following one at Combe at the annual South West RS Trackday with a Mountune kit. Although it couldn't live with my valver it was mighty quick for an out of the box car and a simple ECU upgrade.....quicker than many heavier more powerful hot hatches....very chuckable and good to ride home in too!! A real bargain. Whilst the Fiesta is a world away from my 205, I felt the same when I purchased my 106. The fact is, we all crave phone connectivity now, electric this and electric that; this is modern life. At around 1100kg, I feel that Ford have done a fabulous job in building such a well equipped driver's car.
My 205 had quite frankly ludicrous levels of grip, and so now, does my fiesta. Yes it's a little more inert, a little more 'damped from the experience' perhaps but it still remains a fabulous driving tool which is beautifully balanced but capable of soaking up larger distances.
Who here can remember running around their car in the rain to lock the doors & tailgate pre central locking? Carrying a sleeve full of CDs around? Those days are gone which is for the better.
Before I am accused of being of a sissy, my summer/track car is an S1 Elise which is about as raw as you can get. Different context maybe, but I still thoroughly enjoy my ST2 after a few days in my Elise... So it can't be that bad eh?
Time for Lotus to do what it does best... take the learnings from the Elise in the 90s and apply now: Alu chassis, GRP 3 door hatchback body, this time 5 seats, small engine in the front (around 160bhp), simple interior, market on handling and fun, get it under 950kgs. Bin all modern nonsense except aircon, twin airbags and ABS.
If I could buy something like this for circa £25k I'd ditch the diesel company car, snap one up and never look back!
If I could buy something like this for circa £25k I'd ditch the diesel company car, snap one up and never look back!
Kawasicki said:
How are they set-up? Have you driven a Fiesta ST. Very transparent grip levels and loads of lift off oversteer, way more than the 80's hot hatches.
Yes I have and I fully agree. But the ST doesn't fit my arbitrary "warm hatch" criteria. Bit to much weight hence to much power and speed -- in order to be really fully exploitable off track. Let's take a hypothetical next gen Fiesta. That will probably be lighter. Say a ton. Stick in the then current Ecoboost. 125 hp might not be the entry level, but probably not much up on the price list. So we have a cheap hatch with the power to weight ratio of the 205 GTI 1.6. Nice.
But it will not get the same set-up / calibration as an ST. Which is a shame as it would be good fun. Same probably applies to the current warm Fiestas with the 140 hp Ecoboost.
mrpenks said:
Time for Lotus to do what it does best... take the learnings from the Elise in the 90s and apply now: Alu chassis, GRP 3 door hatchback body, this time 5 seats, small engine in the front (around 160bhp), simple interior, market on handling and fun, get it under 950kgs. Bin all modern nonsense except aircon, twin airbags and ABS.
If I could buy something like this for circa £25k I'd ditch the diesel company car, snap one up and never look back!
If it looked pretty, it might sell. Mind Lotus tried a FWD already and they couldn't get it to Fiesta st levels of fun, mIf I could buy something like this for circa £25k I'd ditch the diesel company car, snap one up and never look back!
I'm in partial agreement with the sentiments of the article but from a very different viewpoint. I think the very nature of the hot hatch is being eroded by stupid quests for power, harsh diffs and Nurburgring records. Back in the '80s and early '90s, a hot hatch was a normal, practical car that was fast enough to be fun yet still completely usable day to day. It didn't loosen your fillings because the makers realised people drive these cars every day and the opportunity to use the fast part of the repertoire is far outweighed by the requirement for civility and liveability. Nowadays, they've become sportscar substitutes that just aren't substitutes at all. Too big, too heavy and require too much speed to be fun. Yet they've got such roughshod rides that they're no fun to own every day when you're not in the mood and so damned expensive you have to wonder why you'd buy one instead of a sports saloon or proper sportscar (and some spare money for a much more gentile used hatch to drive daily.
I've driven all the usual suspects in the past 4 months. A45, M135i, Golf R, Golf GTi PP, Focus ST3, Renaultsport Megane 265 and Giulietta QV TCT. Almost all of them impressed me. But the highest rated, the Golfs, just didn't raise a smile at all. The A45 was very loud and had a horrible ride and the M135i I just didn't gel with at all. It felt too soft and too harsh at the same time without the rather expensive optional adjustable suspension. Same with the Golf R. The stock suspension, on Edinburgh roads, was very jiggly and uncomfortable. I'm sure going flat out on a track or driving like a psychotic lunatic on public roads, they make sense and the ultra firm damping pays off and this where journalists seem to be heaping praise on them. But is that what most people do with a hot hatch, day to day? Or is the view of the average motoring hack skewed too much to the fast driving part and ignoring the practicality that's being lost? Often using the excuse that they have to report on what happens at the limits of adhesion, but this, over the past 20 years, has become the be all and end all of reviews, heavily criticising cars that don't conform to the track day special for the road template.
Of the others, the Focus was a much more civilised daily driver and really impressed. The Renault was just too harsh and felt like another track day special that I don't really want. And the Alfa? The one that's received the worst reviews in the press for being too soft? Loved it! That softness on track and in the hands of journos that's been so criticised by most (at least in this country, others love it) turned into a massively enjoyable, fluid, old school hot hatch feel for me. Genuinely comfortable, usable, yet pointy and fun at sane road speeds. I may upgrade the dampers a little in time, but I wouldn't want to take away the civility pf it all. A genuinely likeable GT car in the shape of a hatch. In fact, I liked it so much that I've ordered one and sod the journos! It matches up to the car that the likes of the GTi Mk2, 19 16V, Tipo Sedicivalvole and 145 Cloverleaf used to be that's been slowly lost over time.
I've driven all the usual suspects in the past 4 months. A45, M135i, Golf R, Golf GTi PP, Focus ST3, Renaultsport Megane 265 and Giulietta QV TCT. Almost all of them impressed me. But the highest rated, the Golfs, just didn't raise a smile at all. The A45 was very loud and had a horrible ride and the M135i I just didn't gel with at all. It felt too soft and too harsh at the same time without the rather expensive optional adjustable suspension. Same with the Golf R. The stock suspension, on Edinburgh roads, was very jiggly and uncomfortable. I'm sure going flat out on a track or driving like a psychotic lunatic on public roads, they make sense and the ultra firm damping pays off and this where journalists seem to be heaping praise on them. But is that what most people do with a hot hatch, day to day? Or is the view of the average motoring hack skewed too much to the fast driving part and ignoring the practicality that's being lost? Often using the excuse that they have to report on what happens at the limits of adhesion, but this, over the past 20 years, has become the be all and end all of reviews, heavily criticising cars that don't conform to the track day special for the road template.
Of the others, the Focus was a much more civilised daily driver and really impressed. The Renault was just too harsh and felt like another track day special that I don't really want. And the Alfa? The one that's received the worst reviews in the press for being too soft? Loved it! That softness on track and in the hands of journos that's been so criticised by most (at least in this country, others love it) turned into a massively enjoyable, fluid, old school hot hatch feel for me. Genuinely comfortable, usable, yet pointy and fun at sane road speeds. I may upgrade the dampers a little in time, but I wouldn't want to take away the civility pf it all. A genuinely likeable GT car in the shape of a hatch. In fact, I liked it so much that I've ordered one and sod the journos! It matches up to the car that the likes of the GTi Mk2, 19 16V, Tipo Sedicivalvole and 145 Cloverleaf used to be that's been slowly lost over time.
Edited by Ali_T on Tuesday 12th August 12:22
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