RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
As others have said earlier in the thread, much of the problem is excessively wide tyres providing far more grip than needed - 80's hot hatches typically used 175 & 185 tyres.
Put todays fat tyres & big heavy alloys on those old 80's hot hatches, and they would probably be more boring too. Quicker around the Nurburgring maybe, but less fun out on the road.
Our MINI has 15" wheels with 175 tyres on - It's hilarious fun to do beautifully balanced four wheel drifts at normal road speeds if you want, without anyone else noticing. Like James Hunt did with his skinny tyred van.
So go narrow on the tyres, and bring most of the fun back...
Put todays fat tyres & big heavy alloys on those old 80's hot hatches, and they would probably be more boring too. Quicker around the Nurburgring maybe, but less fun out on the road.
Our MINI has 15" wheels with 175 tyres on - It's hilarious fun to do beautifully balanced four wheel drifts at normal road speeds if you want, without anyone else noticing. Like James Hunt did with his skinny tyred van.
So go narrow on the tyres, and bring most of the fun back...
Ali_T said:
And most of those Alfisti seem to have completely forgotten about the Sud and Sprint while moaning about modern FWD Alfas. Even Marchionne made that error in his recent future strategy report.
Not really. Entering a new market beneath the existing range is a completely different thing than replacing the existing range with FWD models which is what happened under FIAT ownership in the eighties.Miglia 888 said:
As others have said earlier in the thread, much of the problem is excessively wide tyres providing far more grip than needed - 80's hot hatches typically used 175 & 185 tyres.
Put todays fat tyres & big heavy alloys on those old 80's hot hatches, and they would probably be more boring too. Quicker around the Nurburgring maybe, but less fun out on the road.
Our MINI has 15" wheels with 175 tyres on - It's hilarious fun to do beautifully balanced four wheel drifts at normal road speeds if you want, without anyone else noticing. Like James Hunt did with his skinny tyred van.
So go narrow on the tyres, and bring most of the fun back...
Agreed. My daughter's MINI One seems quite similar to what is being hankered for in the original article.Put todays fat tyres & big heavy alloys on those old 80's hot hatches, and they would probably be more boring too. Quicker around the Nurburgring maybe, but less fun out on the road.
Our MINI has 15" wheels with 175 tyres on - It's hilarious fun to do beautifully balanced four wheel drifts at normal road speeds if you want, without anyone else noticing. Like James Hunt did with his skinny tyred van.
So go narrow on the tyres, and bring most of the fun back...
Ali_T said:
Tony33 said:
ccording to the Alfisti of yesteryear the ultimate crime was fitting front wheel drive...
And most of those Alfisti seem to have completely forgotten about the Sud and Sprint while moaning about modern FWD Alfas. Even Marchionne made that error in his recent future strategy report.Pretty sure the Sprint was a sports coupe! And the GTV, in it's day, was hailed as the best FWD chassis of it's day until the Integra Type R came along. Another brilliant FWD chassis on a sports coupe! But let's not turn this into RWD vs FWD again. Suffice to say that both can produce great cars as long as you don't go crazy on the power.
Ali_T said:
Pretty sure the Sprint was a sports coupe! And the GTV, in it's day, was hailed as the best FWD chassis of it's day until the Integra Type R came along. Another brilliant FWD chassis on a sports coupe! But let's not turn this into RWD vs FWD again. Suffice to say that both can produce great cars as long as you don't go crazy on the power.
It was in a new (to Alfa) market segment of small cars where FWD packaging for interior space was the key driver. The Alfetta GT & GTV were RWD. The point was it is evolution and not everyone will like change. For me the introduction of a flappy paddle gearbox in a hot hatch pales into insignificance compared to the evolution of sporty family cars moving to FWD. The same arguments of driver involvement were had back then. Things move on and in general the market wants higher tech apart from a small bunch of enthusiasts who shake their heads and think the manufacturers don't have a clue. These are mainstream products for the market of today and enthusiasts preferring it the old way will need to find niche products, or simply run the older cars.
TurboHatchback said:
I agree that the modern generation of large 'hot hatches' are very far removed from the feel of the originals. I have a Mk5 Golf GTI which is supposedly a hot hatch, yes it is a hatchback and yes it is fairly quick but really it is a large luxury car not a raw driving machine. All of these 1500kg 250+bhp hatches are very quick but lack the excitement of tiny old hatches.
The smaller breed of hatches is probably where the fun is at now, the Swift sport, Twingo 133 etc rather than the big powerful hatches which are more fast luxury cars.
100% agree with this. My neighbour has a Twingo 133 Cup, it has flaws but it is the closest thing to my 205Gti and AXGT I have experienced in a modern car. Certainly not my other neighbours MK5 Golf Gti, as stated its a fast luxury smallish car, not a hot hatch in the raw sense. The smaller breed of hatches is probably where the fun is at now, the Swift sport, Twingo 133 etc rather than the big powerful hatches which are more fast luxury cars.
100% right. Here's a mail I sent to a car magazine in 2009:
'The hot hatch template is:
- light
- practical and reliable (everyday cars, not sports cars)
- front wheel drive (for safety-first, fun handling - these are not mean to be trad. sports cars)
- four cylinder (for lightness, balance and economy)
- naturally aspirated (for a linear throttle response)
The latest Golf GTi is a brilliant turbo GT, but it's no hot hatch. Modern toys and weight means that the hot hatch template is dead, at least in top of the range models. Don't confuse more engineering with more fun.'
'The hot hatch template is:
- light
- practical and reliable (everyday cars, not sports cars)
- front wheel drive (for safety-first, fun handling - these are not mean to be trad. sports cars)
- four cylinder (for lightness, balance and economy)
- naturally aspirated (for a linear throttle response)
The latest Golf GTi is a brilliant turbo GT, but it's no hot hatch. Modern toys and weight means that the hot hatch template is dead, at least in top of the range models. Don't confuse more engineering with more fun.'
I agree the purity and simplicity of the original hot hatches has gone, but that's progress in a World of Health & Safety, NCAP crash testing..and the fact that manufacturers believe we want extra electronic toys within the specification of the car. So they get bigger & bigger, and thus need more & more power to achieve the favourable power to weight ratio.
Having owned a few hot hatches, my favourite was a lowly Mk1 Fiesta XR2, with the 1.6 Kent engine. So so basic, but I just loved chucking it around the country lanes of Hampshire in the late 80s..early 90s.
Hatches owned:
Blue Mk1 Fiesta XR2
White Mk2 Fiesta XR2
White S2 Ford Escort RS Turbo
Blue over black Vauxhall SRI 130
Electric Orange Ford Focus ST-3 (2006)
Electric Orange Ford Focus ST-2 (2007...I like the ST)
Always fancied a Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI but..got into motorbikes instead.
Having owned a few hot hatches, my favourite was a lowly Mk1 Fiesta XR2, with the 1.6 Kent engine. So so basic, but I just loved chucking it around the country lanes of Hampshire in the late 80s..early 90s.
Hatches owned:
Blue Mk1 Fiesta XR2
White Mk2 Fiesta XR2
White S2 Ford Escort RS Turbo
Blue over black Vauxhall SRI 130
Electric Orange Ford Focus ST-3 (2006)
Electric Orange Ford Focus ST-2 (2007...I like the ST)
Always fancied a Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI but..got into motorbikes instead.
Edited by Waynester on Saturday 16th August 06:19
I too will bang the drum for old cars being a lot more fun. In the past 20 years the road network has become slower with more cameras but cars have become faster and more competent.
I had a 205 GTI and a Mk2 Golf GTi. The Peugeot was brilliant. Had feel, balance, reliability and looked bloody wonderful. Non power steering meant it was as good in that department as the Caterham I also had at the time. And with modern tyres it would do proper oversteer. God I loved that car and i can't see any modern being as much fun as that.
As said in this month's EVO "today it's common to find hot hatches that offer performance...but it's rare to find hot hatches with genuine exuberance...it's a shame that the general trend is for more power, sophistication and complexity, which in turn dilutes the driving experience into something more generic".
Amen to that. Give me an old Peugeot any day...
I had a 205 GTI and a Mk2 Golf GTi. The Peugeot was brilliant. Had feel, balance, reliability and looked bloody wonderful. Non power steering meant it was as good in that department as the Caterham I also had at the time. And with modern tyres it would do proper oversteer. God I loved that car and i can't see any modern being as much fun as that.
As said in this month's EVO "today it's common to find hot hatches that offer performance...but it's rare to find hot hatches with genuine exuberance...it's a shame that the general trend is for more power, sophistication and complexity, which in turn dilutes the driving experience into something more generic".
Amen to that. Give me an old Peugeot any day...
k-ink said:
Anyone of mild competence can extract everything a hatch can give. Hustling a FWD car is so easy and forgiving. It is a different matter with RWD, so it is not a given that every RWD example will be totally wrung out on a track.
Yeah right ... tell me how well you'd keep up with a Plato or Jordan around Brands in identical cars ? tommy1973s said:
100% right. Here's a mail I sent to a car magazine in 2009:
'The hot hatch template is:
- light
- practical and reliable (everyday cars, not sports cars)
- front wheel drive (for safety-first, fun handling - these are not mean to be trad. sports cars)
- four cylinder (for lightness, balance and economy)
- naturally aspirated (for a linear throttle response)
The latest Golf GTi is a brilliant turbo GT, but it's no hot hatch. Modern toys and weight means that the hot hatch template is dead, at least in top of the range models. Don't confuse more engineering with more fun.'
IMHO the hot hatch template is a sporty variant of an ordinary family hatchback, period. Trying to create a set of criteria just leads to too many exceptions and you are describing a specific era of a few cars not a genre. Compared to their modern equivalents family cars in the eighties were relatively slow and had less grip, nowhere near as safe nor efficient. There are good reasons that sporty variants of these cars became expensive to insure. The modern hot hatch is a very different car just like the base family hatchbacks are significantly changed from their predecessors. 'The hot hatch template is:
- light
- practical and reliable (everyday cars, not sports cars)
- front wheel drive (for safety-first, fun handling - these are not mean to be trad. sports cars)
- four cylinder (for lightness, balance and economy)
- naturally aspirated (for a linear throttle response)
The latest Golf GTi is a brilliant turbo GT, but it's no hot hatch. Modern toys and weight means that the hot hatch template is dead, at least in top of the range models. Don't confuse more engineering with more fun.'
It doesn't make the modern hot hatch any less deserving of the title just that some here preferred the older cars. It is no different than thinking that popular music of today wasn't as good as the eighties but the term still applies!
Also, these are family cars and are expected to have 5 star NCAP by those that buy them as such. Which means bigger, heavier bodies and more complex, heavier, safety gear. Whether or not we like it is immaterial, the vast majority of buyers want that when you look at all models based on a platform. The days of the GTI or EP3 Civic making up 25% of sales is long past. I believe the figure is more lie 10% or less for fast models nowadays, which is why they're often launched at a later date as an afterthought.
Miglia 888 said:
As others have said earlier in the thread, much of the problem is excessively wide tyres providing far more grip than needed - 80's hot hatches typically used 175 & 185 tyres.
Put todays fat tyres & big heavy alloys on those old 80's hot hatches, and they would probably be more boring too. Quicker around the Nurburgring maybe, but less fun out on the road.
Our MINI has 15" wheels with 175 tyres on - It's hilarious fun to do beautifully balanced four wheel drifts at normal road speeds if you want, without anyone else noticing. Like James Hunt did with his skinny tyred van.
So go narrow on the tyres, and bring most of the fun back...
Skinny vs fat tyres:Put todays fat tyres & big heavy alloys on those old 80's hot hatches, and they would probably be more boring too. Quicker around the Nurburgring maybe, but less fun out on the road.
Our MINI has 15" wheels with 175 tyres on - It's hilarious fun to do beautifully balanced four wheel drifts at normal road speeds if you want, without anyone else noticing. Like James Hunt did with his skinny tyred van.
So go narrow on the tyres, and bring most of the fun back...
I kinda agree but I don't think you should be four wheel drifting a car on the road unless that's a wind up?!
I think new vs old cars is partly a choice between:
Unsafe and 'exciting' at high speeds or safe and 'boring' at high speeds.
About high profile tyres:
Best steering feel I've felt was a few years ago in a Transit Connect! It had 195/65/15 tyres with nice hydraulic steering and you could feel the tyre 'torque' easily.
Maybe I'll try a Mini with the skinny high profile tyre/wheel combo at some point if they are good. I don't think I'll 'four wheel drift' it though!
Renovation said:
said:
What I want is a car that moves around underneath me at more socially acceptable speeds
Relying more on chassis balance than outright grip.
I want to experience the thrill of having just enough grip to allow the rear end to be trustworthy but mobile
You want an MX5 !Relying more on chassis balance than outright grip.
I want to experience the thrill of having just enough grip to allow the rear end to be trustworthy but mobile
The back seats in most hot hatches are pointless anyway, so a 2 seater is a better option.
ORD said:
Renovation said:
said:
What I want is a car that moves around underneath me at more socially acceptable speeds
Relying more on chassis balance than outright grip.
I want to experience the thrill of having just enough grip to allow the rear end to be trustworthy but mobile
You want an MX5 !Relying more on chassis balance than outright grip.
I want to experience the thrill of having just enough grip to allow the rear end to be trustworthy but mobile
The back seats in most hot hatches are pointless anyway, so a 2 seater is a better option.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff