RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Here's the difference - an MX5 is fun.
I put the current bread of fast hatches (with the notable exceptions mentioned by others) in the same sort of category as fast Audi estates - very fast and capable cars and getting you from A to B but not designed to be remotely engaging or enjoyable at legal speeds.
I read a review of the Golf GTI (a car I actually like) and the writer explained how he liked its trick diff because it meant that it it no longer handled like a FWD car on the limit. He was impressed that it's characteristic handling had been eradicated in favour of more grip and safety. How fast do these people drive?! A GTI handles well within it's limits (with a touch of FWD understeer that will reduce if you lift off) at any sensible speed. Taking away that touch of character so it can lap the Ring faster or whatever is very dull.
I put the current bread of fast hatches (with the notable exceptions mentioned by others) in the same sort of category as fast Audi estates - very fast and capable cars and getting you from A to B but not designed to be remotely engaging or enjoyable at legal speeds.
I read a review of the Golf GTI (a car I actually like) and the writer explained how he liked its trick diff because it meant that it it no longer handled like a FWD car on the limit. He was impressed that it's characteristic handling had been eradicated in favour of more grip and safety. How fast do these people drive?! A GTI handles well within it's limits (with a touch of FWD understeer that will reduce if you lift off) at any sensible speed. Taking away that touch of character so it can lap the Ring faster or whatever is very dull.
ORD said:
The back seats in most hot hatches are pointless anyway, so a 2 seater is a better option.
For me that is a fundamental misunderstanding of a hot hatch, they aren't coupes or specifically designed sports vehicles but use a small family hatchback as a base. The majority are used as dual purpose vehicles for ferrying people around, trips to the diy store and provide a sporty drive when desired. There have been a few track specials with compromised rear space (some with no seats at all) but these are not mainstream hot hatches.
Tony33 said:
or me that is a fundamental misunderstanding of a hot hatch, they aren't coupes or specifically designed sports vehicles but use a small family hatchback as a base. The majority are used as dual purpose vehicles for ferrying people around, trips to the diy store and provide a sporty drive when desired.
There have been a few track specials with compromised rear space (some with no seats at all) but these are not mainstream hot hatches.
Completely agree, it's nonsense to start comparing a hot hatch that can carry 4-5 people plus luggage securely inside the boot with a car that can fit 2 people and a rucksack or requires using a far less secure roof rack.There have been a few track specials with compromised rear space (some with no seats at all) but these are not mainstream hot hatches.
The real question here is if a Renault twingo size should now be considered the desirable size for a hot hatch , I'm not so sure as I haven't tried fitting more than 2 people in one, but know for sure I could have 4 people or a heck of a load of stuff in the back of my beloved mk2 Golf 16v whilst still being able to chuck it around.
aka_kerrly said:
The real question here is if a Renault twingo size should now be considered the desirable size for a hot hatch , I'm not so sure as I haven't tried fitting more than 2 people in one, but know for sure I could have 4 people or a heck of a load of stuff in the back of my beloved mk2 Golf 16v whilst still being able to chuck it around.
How times have changed, I was reading on another forum how a guy decided against a Golf R as he had a baby on the way and needed something larger. After we had our first child we had a Sunbeam Ti back in the eighties. Expectations are way different now and the concept of a family car is very different from the hatches that provided the basis for a hot hatch we nostalgically look back on. ORD said:
Here's the difference - an MX5 is fun.
I put the current bread of fast hatches (with the notable exceptions mentioned by others) in the same sort of category as fast Audi estates - very fast and capable cars and getting you from A to B but not designed to be remotely engaging or enjoyable at legal speeds.
I read a review of the Golf GTI (a car I actually like) and the writer explained how he liked its trick diff because it meant that it it no longer handled like a FWD car on the limit. He was impressed that it's characteristic handling had been eradicated in favour of more grip and safety. How fast do these people drive?! A GTI handles well within it's limits (with a touch of FWD understeer that will reduce if you lift off) at any sensible speed. Taking away that touch of character so it can lap the Ring faster or whatever is very dull.
The OP owns or at least has driven many Caterhams and theyare a lot more fun than an MX5. To balance the impracticality, a hot hatch would be excellent whilst an MX5 would not. I understand your point but a properly practical car the MX is not.I put the current bread of fast hatches (with the notable exceptions mentioned by others) in the same sort of category as fast Audi estates - very fast and capable cars and getting you from A to B but not designed to be remotely engaging or enjoyable at legal speeds.
I read a review of the Golf GTI (a car I actually like) and the writer explained how he liked its trick diff because it meant that it it no longer handled like a FWD car on the limit. He was impressed that it's characteristic handling had been eradicated in favour of more grip and safety. How fast do these people drive?! A GTI handles well within it's limits (with a touch of FWD understeer that will reduce if you lift off) at any sensible speed. Taking away that touch of character so it can lap the Ring faster or whatever is very dull.
coppice said:
k-ink said:
Anyone of mild competence can extract everything a hatch can give. Hustling a FWD car is so easy and forgiving. It is a different matter with RWD, so it is not a given that every RWD example will be totally wrung out on a track.
Yeah right ... tell me how well you'd keep up with a Plato or Jordan around Brands in identical cars ? ORD said:
A GTI handles well within it's limits (with a touch of FWD understeer that will reduce if you lift off) at any sensible speed. Taking away that touch of character so it can lap the Ring faster or whatever is very dull.
Interesting view. I'd much prefer a vehicle that displayed a slight push at ludicrous speeds and remained fairly natural throughout the slow stuff. But if low-speed understeer is your idea of fun, who's to argue? ChocolateFrog said:
OllieC said:
reliability is the only plus point for modern stuff for me (given I don't do mega mileage)
a very large plus point I would concede
We take a lot of stuff for granted.a very large plus point I would concede
Blue tooth
Quick clear windscreens
ABS and ESP
Heaters/AC that work.
The list is almost endless.
Tony33 said:
aka_kerrly said:
The real question here is if a Renault twingo size should now be considered the desirable size for a hot hatch , I'm not so sure as I haven't tried fitting more than 2 people in one, but know for sure I could have 4 people or a heck of a load of stuff in the back of my beloved mk2 Golf 16v whilst still being able to chuck it around.
How times have changed, I was reading on another forum how a guy decided against a Golf R as he had a baby on the way and needed something larger. After we had our first child we had a Sunbeam Ti back in the eighties. Expectations are way different now and the concept of a family car is very different from the hatches that provided the basis for a hot hatch we nostalgically look back on. scherzkeks said:
Interesting view. I'd much prefer a vehicle that displayed a slight push at ludicrous speeds and remained fairly natural throughout the slow stuff. But if low-speed understeer is your idea of fun, who's to argue?
Genuine character is better than fake neutrality granted by complex electronic systems that dull the connection with the car and road! Neutrality is fine, a slight tendency to understeer is fine, a sligr tendency to oversteer is fine. Anything as long as it's a result of the car's layout, weight distribution and mechanical grip. I just don't like have the CPU do my steering, braking or accelerating for me.
ORD said:
Genuine character is better than fake neutrality granted by complex electronic systems that dull the connection with the car and road!
Neutrality is fine, a slight tendency to understeer is fine, a sligr tendency to oversteer is fine. Anything as long as it's a result of the car's layout, weight distribution and mechanical grip. I just don't like have the CPU do my steering, braking or accelerating for me.
Neutrality is a function of many things. Your personal car is neutral because it is mid-engined RWD car with a proper rear biased weight dist. and appro. setup. Expecting a FR, FF, or front-engined AWD chassis to match that on balance is silly. They can come close with proper set up though. Not sure how the "CPU" is doing your steering and braking; it's all quite mystifying really. Neutrality is fine, a slight tendency to understeer is fine, a sligr tendency to oversteer is fine. Anything as long as it's a result of the car's layout, weight distribution and mechanical grip. I just don't like have the CPU do my steering, braking or accelerating for me.
Edited by scherzkeks on Sunday 17th August 22:35
Plenty of CPU controlled systems brake wheels to assist in turn-in.
As for steering, I consider a trick diff to be little different from the car taking over the steering - it's steering with the throttle but not in the usual way (where the change in direction results from the driver's inputs altering the balance).
It's all personal taste, but I would prefer that a FWD car exhibit its natural biases (which can be worked through with care and learning the car). In the same way, I don't like how FR cars are now often manipulated away from their bias toward oversteer and all the way into a bizarre washy understeer. Let the car be the car that it is...just with a rest engine, gearbox and suspension.
I don't see what is so wrong with the natural understeer in FWD cars - just about the easiest tendency to deal with and it almost always came with a bit of adjustability.
As for steering, I consider a trick diff to be little different from the car taking over the steering - it's steering with the throttle but not in the usual way (where the change in direction results from the driver's inputs altering the balance).
It's all personal taste, but I would prefer that a FWD car exhibit its natural biases (which can be worked through with care and learning the car). In the same way, I don't like how FR cars are now often manipulated away from their bias toward oversteer and all the way into a bizarre washy understeer. Let the car be the car that it is...just with a rest engine, gearbox and suspension.
I don't see what is so wrong with the natural understeer in FWD cars - just about the easiest tendency to deal with and it almost always came with a bit of adjustability.
Uncle John said:
So you tested them all did you?
Anyway.
I've just picked up a 55 plate Alfa 147 Lusso and although it's diesel it has a decent amount of poke, and with it's small (for these days!) dimensions and skinny tyres it's really good fun to drive. It's grippy and chuckable just like an Alfa shoudl be.
If you think the 147 is fun you should try a 145, if you can find a tidy example now. I went from a brand new 147 GTA back to a tidy 145 Cloverleaf as it was like comparing a front heavy family car to a go kart. The 145 is true old school.Anyway.
I've just picked up a 55 plate Alfa 147 Lusso and although it's diesel it has a decent amount of poke, and with it's small (for these days!) dimensions and skinny tyres it's really good fun to drive. It's grippy and chuckable just like an Alfa shoudl be.
k-ink said:
Uncle John said:
So you tested them all did you?
Anyway.
I've just picked up a 55 plate Alfa 147 Lusso and although it's diesel it has a decent amount of poke, and with it's small (for these days!) dimensions and skinny tyres it's really good fun to drive. It's grippy and chuckable just like an Alfa shoudl be.
If you think the 147 is fun you should try a 145, if you can find a tidy example now. I went from a brand new 147 GTA back to a tidy 145 Cloverleaf as it was like comparing a front heavy family car to a go kart. The 145 is true old school.Anyway.
I've just picked up a 55 plate Alfa 147 Lusso and although it's diesel it has a decent amount of poke, and with it's small (for these days!) dimensions and skinny tyres it's really good fun to drive. It's grippy and chuckable just like an Alfa shoudl be.
swisstoni said:
ChocolateFrog said:
OllieC said:
reliability is the only plus point for modern stuff for me (given I don't do mega mileage)
a very large plus point I would concede
We take a lot of stuff for granted.a very large plus point I would concede
Blue tooth
Quick clear windscreens
ABS and ESP
Heaters/AC that work.
The list is almost endless.
Bluetooth (!), AC, ESP, don't need those at all. Yes AC is handy for the two weeks of the year it is actually hot but otherwise so what.
I realise my views are not that of the mainstream but each to their own.
OllieC said:
None of those things really matter to me. ABS is useful I suppose, but the lack of it wouldn't put me off.
Bluetooth (!), AC, ESP, don't need those at all. Yes AC is handy for the two weeks of the year it is actually hot but otherwise so what.
I realise my views are not that of the mainstream but each to their own.
I agree to an extent that being able to spec a top of the range GTI in the engine/chassis department whilst also opting to for example delete the AC, delete the sunroof, delete sat nav, electric heated seats and other such items would appeal to me plus a few others it is not the best way to sell a large volume of cars.Bluetooth (!), AC, ESP, don't need those at all. Yes AC is handy for the two weeks of the year it is actually hot but otherwise so what.
I realise my views are not that of the mainstream but each to their own.
As nice as it might be in your ideal world the EU have ensured that ABS & ESP/DSC (or whatever acroynm you choose to use for traction control) are mandatory on all new cars on sale and this has been the case for a few years , the more worrying thing is the prospect that in perhaps a few years having satnav/GPS linked in with systems to control speed, distance, how aggressive you turn/brake etc is far more of a concern.
OllieC said:
None of those things really matter to me. ABS is useful I suppose, but the lack of it wouldn't put me off.
Bluetooth (!), AC, ESP, don't need those at all. Yes AC is handy for the two weeks of the year it is actually hot but otherwise so what.
I realise my views are not that of the mainstream but each to their own.
Well here's one who is mostly in agreement with you.Bluetooth (!), AC, ESP, don't need those at all. Yes AC is handy for the two weeks of the year it is actually hot but otherwise so what.
I realise my views are not that of the mainstream but each to their own.
For me having ABS puts me off. I have averted a number of accidents only by having the ability to lock the thing up when required.
In my area A/C is essential for about 9 months. For that reason I fitted it to my TR7 a couple of years ago. The TR8 all ready had it.
Of the modern stuff the only other one O may be interested in is cruise control, as it could save you where cameras are hiding. Only one of my cars has it, & on it I find it annoying, always slowing inappropriately, but it may just be a bad example.
Meanwhile for those of us who live in the UK, often have to get out for work at dark-o-clock and have to drive on wet or muddy roads for a large proportion of the year, ABS is (without exaggeration) a life saver. Sure, if you are awake and alert and paying 100% attention, and on a great road surface, then maybe your right foot can modulate the brake fast enough to swerve out of the way of the half awake nutter who just launched out of a side road. For the rest of us mortals, I'll take being able to plant my right foot as hard as possible, and know that I have steering while each wheel has maximum retardation possible for the 4 different mu conditions under each wheel.
Zad said:
Meanwhile for those of us who live in the UK, often have to get out for work at dark-o-clock and have to drive on wet or muddy roads for a large proportion of the year, ABS is (without exaggeration) a life saver. Sure, if you are awake and alert and paying 100% attention, and on a great road surface, then maybe your right foot can modulate the brake fast enough to swerve out of the way of the half awake nutter who just launched out of a side road. For the rest of us mortals, I'll take being able to plant my right foot as hard as possible, and know that I have steering while each wheel has maximum retardation possible for the 4 different mu conditions under each wheel.
+1You have to see our roads to believe them at times. It's like bloody off-roading in parts of London and Oxfordshire.
Zad said:
Meanwhile for those of us who live in the UK, often have to get out for work at dark-o-clock and have to drive on wet or muddy roads for a large proportion of the year, ABS is (without exaggeration) a life saver. Sure, if you are awake and alert and paying 100% attention, and on a great road surface, then maybe your right foot can modulate the brake fast enough to swerve out of the way of the half awake nutter who just launched out of a side road. For the rest of us mortals, I'll take being able to plant my right foot as hard as possible, and know that I have steering while each wheel has maximum retardation possible for the 4 different mu conditions under each wheel.
I agree. I'm still trying to acquire all the parts to put ABS on my 1988 Peugeot 205.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff