RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong

[Elstro1988]

Fascinating debate (apart from all the keyboard warriors going back and forth). Whenever I read about the latets generation of hot hatches, I think they've gone too overboard in terms of weight and power plus all the fancy gizmos to keep it all in check. I haven't driven many modern stuff but I can totally see what everyone's talking about. Test drove a Renault Clio a few years back and although it was a cooking 1200 model, it just felt so numb and bland.

I've got a poverty spec 1.0 Nova. I'm 25 and really should be in something newer, bigger engined, more powerful. But I don't want to. You can feel absolutely everything and can push it to its limits without worying about losing your licence. And having discovered in my debut in Sprinting this year, those limits are pretty easy to reach on 155 R13 skinny steelies:



It's slow (both my events I was slowest by a country mile), it handles terribly. But my God it's a laugh to drive. I had a 1.0 Corsa B 3-pot prior to that and despite being the same chassis, was just a tedious appliance. I dread to think what the latest Corsa (apart from the VXR Nurburgring maybe judging by reviews) feels like to drive.

That video of Chris Harris with the C63 (one of my favourite moderns purely on its vulgar dirty V8 growl) on space savers was awesome. Just shows that we don't need super wide alloys on low profile tyres to make a car fun to drive.

I absolutely love 'Rallye' style cars. Warm hatches you'd call them now. Pug 205 Rallye, Citroen AX Sport. Stripped, small skinny white steels, close ratio boxes. Feel faster than they are.

[OllieC]

Zad said:

Meanwhile for those of us who live in the UK, often have to get out for work at dark-o-clock and have to drive on wet or muddy roads for a large proportion of the year, ABS is (without exaggeration) a life saver. Sure, if you are awake and alert and paying 100% attention, and on a great road surface, then maybe your right foot can modulate the brake fast enough to swerve out of the way of the half awake nutter who just launched out of a side road. For the rest of us mortals, I'll take being able to plant my right foot as hard as possible, and know that I have steering while each wheel has maximum retardation possible for the 4 different mu conditions under each wheel.

I'm certainly not going to claim I can brake better than an ABS system, I must be fairly lucky but I can't recall having to do an emergency stop that wasn't the result of my lack of attention (its happened a few times - not too many thankfully and I haven't hit anything !)

I will concede you do make a valid point with regard to ABS, that said I don't consider the roads in and around Northants generally to be that bad in winter, but I have only been driving a bit over 10 years, so not as experienced as some.

[PorkRind]

Couldnt agree more with this article.

[VeeFource]

ABS is also much better than it used to be thankfully. I doubt any manufacturer thinks having trigger happy ABS is a pleasing feature so they've noticably been working on it over the years

[GreenArrow]

As an owner of a 205 GTI I agree with this article wholeheartedly. But its a problem with ALL cars these days. Enormous great big wheels and tyres, suspension with no subtlety to it on everything from MPVs to diesel saloons.

unfortunately we the consumers are to blame. We want gizmos in everything, creature comforts, big wheels etc plus all the safety stuff....its impossible for manufacturers to produce the old school hatches any more. Sad but true. Also, the popularity of trackdays etc means that people DO care about Nurburgring lap times....

I thought the writing was on the wall when Renault UK couldn't shift its allocation of Megane R26Rs....the actual number of people prepared to dig into their pockets for a hard core car is actually very small these days.

[SidewaysSi]

GreenArrow said:

As an owner of a 205 GTI I agree with this article wholeheartedly. But its a problem with ALL cars these days. Enormous great big wheels and tyres, suspension with no subtlety to it on everything from MPVs to diesel saloons.

unfortunately we the consumers are to blame. We want gizmos in everything, creature comforts, big wheels etc plus all the safety stuff....its impossible for manufacturers to produce the old school hatches any more. Sad but true. Also, the popularity of trackdays etc means that people DO care about Nurburgring lap times....

I thought the writing was on the wall when Renault UK couldn't shift its allocation of Megane R26Rs....the actual number of people prepared to dig into their pockets for a hard core car is actually very small these days.

I think that had as much to do with timing and its lack of practicality as anything. IMO a hatch needs to have back seats to make any sense. The R26R was a purist machine, however with its 2 seat layout, its price put it against the Lotus Elise and for the person it is aimed at, the Elise (or Caterham etc) are a lot more desirable.

However an R26R with a couple of back seats would have been a brilliant practical car for the guy who also had a Caterham in the garage...

[Derek Chevalier]

SidewaysSi said:

The R26R was a purist machine, however with its 2 seat layout, its price put it against the Lotus Elise and for the person it is aimed at, the Elise (or Caterham etc) are a lot more desirable.

In what way?

[Renovation]

Derek Chevalier said:

SidewaysSi said:

The R26R was a purist machine, however with its 2 seat layout, its price put it against the Lotus Elise and for the person it is aimed at, the Elise (or Caterham etc) are a lot more desirable.

In what way?

The Elise drives the correct wheels, is mid engined, looks superb, handles very well.

Lotus is seen as a desirable brand and Renault isn't.

[SidewaysSi]

Renovation said:

Derek Chevalier said:

SidewaysSi said:

The R26R was a purist machine, however with its 2 seat layout, its price put it against the Lotus Elise and for the person it is aimed at, the Elise (or Caterham etc) are a lot more desirable.

In what way?

The Elise drives the correct wheels, is mid engined, looks superb, handles very well.

Lotus is seen as a desirable brand and Renault isn't.

Indeed. The Renault is a brilliant car but it can't be expected to deliver the thrills of a true lightweight. The Lotus has stunning unassisted steering, brilliant ride/handling and will power oversteer.

I love hot hatches but they need to be practical, either because they are a sole form of transport or because they play the practical role to something more hardcore.

[Derek Chevalier]

SidewaysSi said:

Renovation said:

Derek Chevalier said:

SidewaysSi said:

The R26R was a purist machine, however with its 2 seat layout, its price put it against the Lotus Elise and for the person it is aimed at, the Elise (or Caterham etc) are a lot more desirable.

In what way?

The Elise drives the correct wheels, is mid engined, looks superb, handles very well.

Lotus is seen as a desirable brand and Renault isn't.

Indeed. The Renault is a brilliant car but it can't be expected to deliver the thrills of a true lightweight. The Lotus has stunning unassisted steering, brilliant ride/handling and will power oversteer.

I love hot hatches but they need to be practical, either because they are a sole form of transport or because they play the practical role to something more hardcore.

If you look at what Elise you would get at the R26.R price point (~130bhp), I would be reasonably surprised if you could generate a large amount of power oversteer. The Renault handles just as well and would destroy the Elise round a given circuit in the hands of an average driver. The Elise is now ~900kg - is that genuinely a lightweight?

I also think the Renault delivers more than enough thrills

http://lexusenthusiast.com/2014/08/18/lexus-lfa-ho...

[neil1jnr]

Furyblade_Lee said:

TurboHatchback said:

I agree that the modern generation of large 'hot hatches' are very far removed from the feel of the originals. I have a Mk5 Golf GTI which is supposedly a hot hatch, yes it is a hatchback and yes it is fairly quick but really it is a large luxury car not a raw driving machine. All of these 1500kg 250+bhp hatches are very quick but lack the excitement of tiny old hatches.

The smaller breed of hatches is probably where the fun is at now, the Swift sport, Twingo 133 etc rather than the big powerful hatches which are more fast luxury cars.

100% agree with this. My neighbour has a Twingo 133 Cup, it has flaws but it is the closest thing to my 205Gti and AXGT I have experienced in a modern car. Certainly not my other neighbours MK5 Golf Gti, as stated its a fast luxury smallish car, not a hot hatch in the raw sense.

A mk 5 golf is a 'luxury' car?? Since when?

[Renovation]

neil1jnr said:

A mk 5 golf is a 'luxury' car?? Since when?

Compared to a MkI or II Golf it is.

[Renovation]

Derek Chevalier said:

The Renault handles just as well and would destroy the Elise round a given circuit in the hands of an average driver. The Elise is now ~900kg - is that genuinely a lightweight?

I also think the Renault delivers more than enough thrills

But it's not all about Track times - a real race car will be much better on track than either.

As the average car weighs approx 1500kg I'd suggest anything under 1250kg is light and anything under 1000kg is very light.

Then you must be one of the very few who thinks so / bought one.

[Derek Chevalier]

Renovation said:

Derek Chevalier said:

The Renault handles just as well and would destroy the Elise round a given circuit in the hands of an average driver. The Elise is now ~900kg - is that genuinely a lightweight?

I also think the Renault delivers more than enough thrills

But it's not all about Track times - a real race car will be much better on track than either.

As the average car weighs approx 1500kg I'd suggest anything under 1250kg is light and anything under 1000kg is very light.

Then you must be one of the very few who thinks so / bought one.

It would be impractical for me to drive a real race car to the ring for a weekend

I was one of the very few that had one, but am not sure that a lot more Elises were sold over the same period, so "very" is not strictly true

[SidewaysSi]

Derek Chevalier said:

SidewaysSi said:

Renovation said:

Derek Chevalier said:

SidewaysSi said:

The R26R was a purist machine, however with its 2 seat layout, its price put it against the Lotus Elise and for the person it is aimed at, the Elise (or Caterham etc) are a lot more desirable.

In what way?

The Elise drives the correct wheels, is mid engined, looks superb, handles very well.

Lotus is seen as a desirable brand and Renault isn't.

Indeed. The Renault is a brilliant car but it can't be expected to deliver the thrills of a true lightweight. The Lotus has stunning unassisted steering, brilliant ride/handling and will power oversteer.

I love hot hatches but they need to be practical, either because they are a sole form of transport or because they play the practical role to something more hardcore.

If you look at what Elise you would get at the R26.R price point (~130bhp), I would be reasonably surprised if you could generate a large amount of power oversteer. The Renault handles just as well and would destroy the Elise round a given circuit in the hands of an average driver. The Elise is now ~900kg - is that genuinely a lightweight?

I also think the Renault delivers more than enough thrills

http://lexusenthusiast.com/2014/08/18/lexus-lfa-ho...

The Renault certainly is great but what I personally would miss is the steering feel. Not driven a 130 brake Elise but 150 is more than enough to get some decent angles on the throttle in the dry..

[scottishlion]

The good news is you don't have to buy a new one.

Save yourself from the trap of finance, and buy yourself an original. My last 'warm' hatch was an '04 SportKa, and despite looking pretty gay (less so in the dark Navy Blue of mine) it was absolutely brilliant - as good as my mint 1.9 205 GTI (really).

I was lucky enough to do a fair few track miles in an Exige S and the SportKa is the closest car to the feel of that - tangeable lightness, tight steering and gearshift, and even a similar sound. I bought it because it was cheap but kept it (until I moved to Australia) because it was BRILLIANT.

Now I'm in the land of the V8 dreaming about 875kg hot hatches again!

[s m]

Elstro1988 said:

Fascinating debate (apart from all the keyboard warriors going back and forth). Whenever I read about the latets generation of hot hatches, I think they've gone too overboard in terms of weight and power plus all the fancy gizmos to keep it all in check. I haven't driven many modern stuff but I can totally see what everyone's talking about. Test drove a Renault Clio a few years back and although it was a cooking 1200 model, it just felt so numb and bland.

I've got a poverty spec 1.0 Nova. I'm 25 and really should be in something newer, bigger engined, more powerful. But I don't want to. You can feel absolutely everything and can push it to its limits without worying about losing your licence. And having discovered in my debut in Sprinting this year, those limits are pretty easy to reach on 155 R13 skinny steelies:



It's slow (both my events I was slowest by a country mile), it handles terribly. But my God it's a laugh to drive. I had a 1.0 Corsa B 3-pot prior to that and despite being the same chassis, was just a tedious appliance. I dread to think what the latest Corsa (apart from the VXR Nurburgring maybe judging by reviews) feels like to drive.

That video of Chris Harris with the C63 (one of my favourite moderns purely on its vulgar dirty V8 growl) on space savers was awesome. Just shows that we don't need super wide alloys on low profile tyres to make a car fun to drive.

I absolutely love 'Rallye' style cars. Warm hatches you'd call them now. Pug 205 Rallye, Citroen AX Sport. Stripped, small skinny white steels, close ratio boxes. Feel faster than they are.

Nice pic - I drove a Nova 1.2 van extensively for work and i agree it was more fun to drive than the first of the Corsas

Plus you've got the boxy arches with yours

Occasionally see a very tidy 1.4 SR on my morning drive - looks standard and makes a change from the bigger "small" cars that are newer