RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong

RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong

Author
Discussion

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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hondansx said:
I really don't get the problem. You can buy a Clio 172 for, what, a grand?
It'll be a bit of an arse in ten years' time when all the old-fashioned hot hatches have rusted off the road, though. smile

As people have said, it's impossible to blame the manufacturers though - they're producing what the market demands.

Hasbeen

2,073 posts

220 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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suffolk009 said:
The problem is too much BHP across the board. Supercars used to have 300bhp. Now that's a (fairly) hot hatch.

And part of the fun of cars like my old R5 Turbo was the sensation that the car was built of biscuit tins.

The yearning for simpler, more enjoyable cars is the reason people keep Classics in their garage. My MG Midget recently came back from having some work done and the mechanic who delivered it had a huge grin on his face. He couldn't believe that something that old could be so much fun at such low speeds.
Yep, so true suffolk009. Those were the best days. My Singer 9, MG TF, Simca Aronde, all tail happy cars that only pointed in the same direction they were traveling in, as you put them in the garage. When I progressed to a Morgan +4 I had to go racing to really enjoy it, as it was really too fast to exploit fully on the public road.

I really do feel sorry for those who were reduced to making do with the front drive monstrosities that followed. Issigonis has a lot to answer for.

nckr55

234 posts

214 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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I agree with the theme of the article, that more power & grip doesn't make for a more entertaining car (necessarily).

I've had a '09 R56 Cooper S for a few months now, which replaced an Audi S3.

I had the S3 for only 4-5 months, bought as a misguided attempt to replace a DSG Golf R32 with a manual & less thirsty car. The R32 had it's own attractions (primarily a multi-cylinder engine and my first paddle-shift), but I found both the Haldex-equipped cars frustrating for the same reasons. Firstly, they had performance I couldn't use enough of, often enough. Secondly, I found the Haldex frustrating; too often it wouldn't 'hook-up' as anticipated, leaving only terminal understeer. The Mini is far more agile and adjustable. Turn in, carrying a little too much speed and a lift tucks the nose in nicely; feels like it is pivoting around you.

More fun, more often than both the faster, grippier cars.

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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I think the success of the Fiesta ST kills this debate. It is just a fiesta, with a pokier engine, some add on cosmetics, grippier seats and a sporty chassis tune. It doesn't take itself too seriously.

Dale487

1,334 posts

122 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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The hot hatch isn't dying its evolving.

Even before Nurbergring times were used to market hot hatches, motoring journalist & we the buying public expect each progressing generation to be faster, better, stronger.

Look at the MK3 Gold GTI the 8v had a bigger 2.0 litre engine than the 8v MK2 1.8 GTI but basically the same power of 118bhp - possibly the worst Gold GTI of the lot.

Super hatches didn't exist until the 2000s, it just another example of everyone wanting more.

The true spirit of the hot hatch lives on in the Suzuki Swift sport & the Twingo Sport 133 - big engines in small cars but no so big to ruin the handling & not too much power, meaning you can get close to their limits on the road.

VW are missing a trick by not releasing the Up GT - 120 ish bhp.

smilo996

2,755 posts

169 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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I wonder if anyone will reset the trend. Car companies are great at bringing on more of everything for their customers, no matter what segement they are in.

Most customers like whatever is new but look at the current and MK1 Golf for example, the new one is light years away from the original but still popular.

It would be interesting to see how the original could be remade as a modern car.

Well it may happen but it would have to have all the intervening legislated gismos. Different impact bumpers, ABS and several other three letters, side impact bars, modern crumple zones, air bags, Sat Nav.....

Would it even be possible to get close?

thiscocks

3,127 posts

194 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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You're not wrong. I don't want a road car to be a v capable track car and feel like it's always just at 5/10ths when driven on the road. Read Peugeot 405 MI16. Great fun road car, not so great on track- but as 99% of its life it will be on the road that makes sense.

UnluckyTimmeh

3,435 posts

212 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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Go and drive the Fiesta ST in either sport mode or with it all off and then delete this entire article.

Question answered.

MrBarry123

6,025 posts

120 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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Definition: Hot hatch (shortened from hot hatchback) is a high-performance derivative of a car body style consisting of a three- or five-door hatchback automobile.

Based on that, I'd say the offering today is probably the hottest offering of hot hatch ever. Actually, given how far the hot hatches of today have come from their humble roots, they probably need a new class e.g. super hatch.

ChocolateFrog

24,859 posts

172 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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OllieC said:
reliability is the only plus point for modern stuff for me (given I don't do mega mileage)

a very large plus point I would concede wink
We take a lot of stuff for granted.
Blue tooth
Quick clear windscreens
ABS and ESP
Heaters/AC that work.

The list is almost endless.

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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The ethos behind a hot hatch is still alive and well (though maybe it's lost some of the excitement as it's an old idea now) but the cars themselves are only boring because cars have evolved into being boring. It's nothing to do with hot hatches specifically.

Example - drive a brand new 1.2 Vauxhall Corsa. Then drive a 1987 1.2 Nova. Tell me which is more fun.

The shift into concentrating on making 'Ring warriors is no different than the initial flurry to produce cars that could crack 0-60mph in under 8 secs that we have back in the 1980's. Everything's just getting bigger, and more powerful, and safer and heavier. It's not just hot hatches, it's everything. Except Caterhams!

I'm with the OP on my love of older hot hatches (though I'm more PSA than Renault) but then I prefer all older cars to newer ones. I'd use a new car to get somewhere, but I wouldn't enjoy it like if I was driving a mk2 Fiesta, be it XR2 or Popular Plus.

For the record, the most fun (literally just in terms of giggle factor) hot hatch ever:


kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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ChocolateFrog said:
OllieC said:
reliability is the only plus point for modern stuff for me (given I don't do mega mileage)

a very large plus point I would concede wink
We take a lot of stuff for granted.
Blue tooth
Quick clear windscreens
ABS and ESP
Heaters/AC that work.

The list is almost endless.
I neither have nor particularly want any of those things on my car except for the heater. ABS and ESP are a bonus, but one one I'd turn down a car for lacking.

chungasarnies

155 posts

124 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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I have no problem with this argument per-se. I'm as much a defender of the manual box and non-turbo engine as the next man. But I'm getting a bit sick of this nostalgic bks when people start to say things like "xxx car from 1992 is a better car than xxx from now" and other such garbage. It's patently not true. Old and new cars alike are great drives, they just provide a different experience - there's enough room for both.

This article reads like a dull attempt to pander to certain elements in the car enthusiast community. We're in danger of becoming a parody of ourselves

l354uge

2,892 posts

120 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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Interesting to see the amount of fiesta st sold compared to the new hot Clio.

Fiesta is a more old school style hatch: recaros, red bits, manual, pliable yet able chassis and a peppy engine but not supercar quick, focus is on driving fun, not numbers.

Clio on the other hand is full of expensive gadgets and an semi auto box, more concentrated on numbers..

Friend wanted a hot hatch, didnt even consider the clio.

We can complain as much as we want about cars being too composed and digital these days but the manufacturers are only going to listen to the people waving the cash (or PCP agreement)

Evoman

99 posts

196 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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Dr Interceptor said:
Writing as a chap with a 2014 Golf R parked outside my office, glinting in the sunshine, I would like to confirm that the Hot Hatchback is indeed very much alive, and well.

I've had a few over the years, hatches, not Golfs. Ranging from luke warm 1st Generation Coopers with 115bhp, up to a Cooper S that I'd subjected to a certain degree of tweakery, and when I moved it on, was putting out around 225bhp. Now, my daily drive 5-door Golf sports 300bhp.

A lot has changed since the era of the Peugeot 205 and Mk1 GTi, mostly born out of legislation, but also a great deal of consumer-led focus on having every conceivable gadget crammed into a car. So the legislation bit... We all know now that cars have to be safe. Hot hatches are based on much more humble underpinnings, and share their components with cars that will ferry the wife and children to Sainsbury's. While us petrol heads are happy to take certain risks and drive vehicles like Caterhams with no regard for safety, hatchbacks have to get the automatic 5-star safety tick. This means they now need the complete array of airbags, stability systems, impact beams, crash avoidance systems, as well as the usual ABS. The 205 didn't have to cope with any of that.

Then you have the consumer-led demand for in car technology. People want their Fiesta to sync to their fruit phone of choice and stream music. This means that when you buy the ST version, it has that fitted too.

Take my Golf R for instance... as standard it comes with Xenons, Radar Adaptive Cruise Control, Collision avoidance with auto braking, front and rear park assist, dual zone climate, MP3/Phone connectivity - plus some other kit I've likely forgotten.

Despite all this kit, and the 1476kg curb weight, it gets to 62mph in 5 seconds. Roll the clock back a few years, and that's a comparable time to a Ferrari 456, Carrera 4 (996) or the DB7. Performance of the super sports cars from yesteryear can now be had in a 5-door Golf.

So, the Hot Hatch isn't dead. Just the conundrum of constantly having to meet even more restrictive safety legislation, emissions regulations, whilst also ensuring the cars feature all the latest technology is giving the designers and engineers a bit of a headache. But they are constantly working, and the car companies are constantly investing in ensuring that their new car is not only quicker, but that they remain engaging.

I will admit that the current crop of new cars will never match the 'originals' for driver involvement. In the same way that if Ford engineered a new 300HP rear-wheel drive Focus, it wouldn't be as good as a MK1 Escort in terms of feel and control. Old cars with their direct steering and lack of by-wire electronics will always win over todays tech laden cars.

Occasionally though some gems are born. The Fiesta ST being the most recent to spring to mind. Ford have a great reputation for engineering an engaging chassis setup, and the Fiesta has been crying out for more power for years. They could have given it more, but on balance I think they got it just about right. Certainly cars like the A45 AMG show that outright power isn't everything, which makes me wonder what VWs next creation will be like, the R400. A 400bhp version of the R? It sounds bonkers and insane to the point where I'm not sure how drivable it will be. But I admire them for doing it, and for keeping the Hot hatch breed alive.
Fair point and the advancement of technology cannot be overlooked in the attainability of cars with increasing horsepower and ability. The question raised by the article was whether these advancements provide the same accessibility to the thrills of the hot hatch from yesteryear. Yes advancements in technology have meant an increase ability of modern hot hatches. Are they collectively as much fun as the hot hatch of the 80's and early 90's?

Reaching that envelope of a car's limit of grip and exploiting that handling playfulness as you experience the feedback through the rim of the steering wheel and through the seat of your pants, feeling the dynamics of the car as it chats back to you is, I would have thought the pinnacle of all Pistonheads. Reaching that point at speeds that aren't ludicrous is where these hot hatches of yesteryear shone and oh my, how they shone brightly.

Compare the 'warm' hatches of today on paper with those Old Skool hot hatches and you begin to see some similarities. Behind the wheel those similarities are apparent from the 'basic-ness' of the cabins and the simplicity of the approach. Modern hot hatches are a new breed and something different and something very capable. I can't comment on the Golf R as I've never driven one and it sounds an incredible bit of kit though I would question quad pipes on a hatchback. Perhaps they sound good. Looks-wise I would disagree considering the rest is a fairly understated package. A different machine to the likes of the 205Gti and Golf GTi, for those kicks look to the 'warm' hatches. All good fun in different ways.

Matt_N

8,900 posts

201 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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JamesD1 said:
as a broke 20 something I agree with this arcticle and think that 'hot hatches' are not what they used to be with golf gti's costing nigh on 30k they are out of the price reach of many.
Go back to the launch of the Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and the inflation adjusted price is actually pretty similar.

is1

188 posts

147 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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smilo996 said:
I wonder if anyone will reset the trend. It would be interesting to see how the original could be remade as a modern car.

Would it even be possible to get close?
I suppose that is what BMW did with new MINI and Fiat with the 500. A modern interpretation of the original.
Or do you mean literally maintaining height/width/track etc?
For me, I'm surprised that manufacturers with a reputation for building enthusiasts' cars don't just make a "less is more" version of popular models. I don't buy the "but they won't sell" line.
The Clio Trophy sold to quite a few discerning owners from new.

I'm thinking a Golf GTI (or a 2-series) with as little electrics as they can get away with, lighter seats, wheels, fruitier exhaust and one colour. A sort of "club sport" model. Surely that wouldn't be difficult to do and yes, they would sell. People like the idea they are buying into a focused product even if they drive to the office in it.

C.A.R.

3,967 posts

187 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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Dr Interceptor said:
Despite all this kit, and the 1476kg curb weight, it gets to 62mph in 5 seconds. Roll the clock back a few years, and that's a comparable time to a Ferrari 456, Carrera 4 (996) or the DB7. Performance of the super sports cars from yesteryear can now be had in a 5-door Golf.
But you're missing the point of the article, which accepts your (quite right) opinion that times have basically moved on.

The 'essence' of the older cars was that the performance was accessible.

Whilst you are very keen to point out just how fast your car is on paper, how fast can you actually drive it? How often can you exploit the chassis and the power it has? How much of that available power have you actually used?

Cars are so big and cumbersome now (as you also point out) and whilst handling guru's can engineer them to feel light and nimble, you simply can't drive them with the same 'scruff of the neck' manner you could an older car.

If you drive a 1.6 205 GTi down a B-road you can use all the power that little car can muster, all the grip the little tyres can stick with.

Do the same with your Golf and you'll be exceptionally quicker. From a driving perspective though; who would be having more fun?

To find the upper limit of a road car is irresponsible, but to explore it can be done safely. With a modern super-hatchback it simply isn't viable and it's very questionable how many owners out there actually have the talent to get the car there in the first place.

mp3manager

4,254 posts

195 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.

Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
Absolutely this, as this type of article is just poor journalism.

Things were better in the past shocker!

aka_kerrly

12,416 posts

209 months

Thursday 7th August 2014
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I find the frustration is the numbers chasing game and then having to engineer them so that Miss Daisy can still drive it without killing herself or it being deemed too dangerous. Then you end up with enthusiasts saying "oh it feels dull or it doesn't feel like 300bhp" but Miss Daisey who isn't aware of the power at all drives using >25% of the cars potential and would have been better off buying the "cooking model"

I don't think that the hot hatch is dying in the slightest it is just that perhaps instead of looking at Golf GTIs as being the typical hot hatch and instead we need to go down a class size or two to the likes of the Renault Twingo as hot hatches that can be compared to those of the 80s and Golfs/Megane perhaps ought to be hyper hatches which are on par with 90s supercars