RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
I wonder how much of the playfulness could be reinjected into modern warm hatchbacks simply by fitting narrower, harder tyres on smaller wheels? I'd love to try driving something like a Swift Sport with 145s on 14 inch wheels. Is there a place in the tyre market for low-grip but sporty (in terms of feedback, breakaway linearity, etc.) tyres?
Edited by kambites on Thursday 7th August 13:50
Example - drive a brand new 1.2 Vauxhall Corsa. Then drive a 1987 1.2 Nova. Tell me which is more fun.
I won't dispuse the Nova will be more fun but which one would you rather drive a 500 mile round trip in? Modern cars are more refined, comfortable, safer and at least as economical for the same power - the things that make a difference on the day to day not the one off b road blast.
Times have changed and you simply could not make a car that is a 30 year old design.
I won't dispuse the Nova will be more fun but which one would you rather drive a 500 mile round trip in? Modern cars are more refined, comfortable, safer and at least as economical for the same power - the things that make a difference on the day to day not the one off b road blast.
Times have changed and you simply could not make a car that is a 30 year old design.
Evoman said:
Fair point and the advancement of technology cannot be overlooked in the attainability of cars with increasing horsepower and ability. The question raised by the article was whether these advancements provide the same accessibility to the thrills of the hot hatch from yesteryear. Yes advancements in technology have meant an increase ability of modern hot hatches. Are they collectively as much fun as the hot hatch of the 80's and early 90's?
Reaching that envelope of a car's limit of grip and exploiting that handling playfulness as you experience the feedback through the rim of the steering wheel and through the seat of your pants, feeling the dynamics of the car as it chats back to you is, I would have thought the pinnacle of all Pistonheads. Reaching that point at speeds that aren't ludicrous is where these hot hatches of yesteryear shone and oh my, how they shone brightly.
Compare the 'warm' hatches of today on paper with those Old Skool hot hatches and you begin to see some similarities. Behind the wheel those similarities are apparent from the 'basic-ness' of the cabins and the simplicity of the approach. Modern hot hatches are a new breed and something different and something very capable. I can't comment on the Golf R as I've never driven one and it sounds an incredible bit of kit though I would question quad pipes on a hatchback. Perhaps they sound good. Looks-wise I would disagree considering the rest is a fairly understated package. A different machine to the likes of the 205Gti and Golf GTi, for those kicks look to the 'warm' hatches. All good fun in different ways.
Hence why I mentioned the Fiesta ST... that seemed to strike the balance between performance and usable horsepower well. A car you could take by the scruff of the neck, and wring every last horse out of. Even that perhaps has too much power now though for the 'warm hatch' category... The MK6 ST only had 150hp... now you can take the ST over 200 with the Mountune kit.Reaching that envelope of a car's limit of grip and exploiting that handling playfulness as you experience the feedback through the rim of the steering wheel and through the seat of your pants, feeling the dynamics of the car as it chats back to you is, I would have thought the pinnacle of all Pistonheads. Reaching that point at speeds that aren't ludicrous is where these hot hatches of yesteryear shone and oh my, how they shone brightly.
Compare the 'warm' hatches of today on paper with those Old Skool hot hatches and you begin to see some similarities. Behind the wheel those similarities are apparent from the 'basic-ness' of the cabins and the simplicity of the approach. Modern hot hatches are a new breed and something different and something very capable. I can't comment on the Golf R as I've never driven one and it sounds an incredible bit of kit though I would question quad pipes on a hatchback. Perhaps they sound good. Looks-wise I would disagree considering the rest is a fairly understated package. A different machine to the likes of the 205Gti and Golf GTi, for those kicks look to the 'warm' hatches. All good fun in different ways.
So I guess there are now three levels of 'hot hatch'
1. The warm hatch - 110-160hp
2. The hot hatch - 160-230hp
3. Everything else at 230+ bhp
Of course the boundaries and numbers on that could be debated for ever.
This notion that the performance of old hot hatches from the 80's was at a level that was somehow acceptable to use on public roads is junk. People cared less about health and safety in the 80's. But the cars were still quick enough to land you in a huge pile of poo today.
I drive a slow car, a near 25 year old e30 318is, it is not nearly as quick as an 80's hot hatch, so why does it feel like it's not really straining to exceed 100mph on a B-road.
I drive a slow car, a near 25 year old e30 318is, it is not nearly as quick as an 80's hot hatch, so why does it feel like it's not really straining to exceed 100mph on a B-road.
A big reason for the change is buyers have changed
Young drivers today have to pay really big premiums just to get insured on the least powerful car in the range
Todays hot hatches are uninsurable to the average young lad, you need to be earning well above the average wage for the age group.
Young drivers today have to pay really big premiums just to get insured on the least powerful car in the range
Todays hot hatches are uninsurable to the average young lad, you need to be earning well above the average wage for the age group.
Might I be so bold as to suggest that the press are to blame here?
Older hot hatches which were pitched up against each other could lose based upon the fact that another car had more power, or wasn't so ragged in handling. Perhaps the comment about rear legroom or noise would come up, meaning that the more refined hatch would be the winner. Even between a Clio 172 and 182 there were changes of this ilk, and don't even start talking about the original master, the Golf GTi and its progression through the later 90's.
The hot hatch genre isn't the only one. You only have to look at the size cars are these days, compared to their previous incarnations. An Audi A4 is now A6 sized. And so on. How many press reviews talking about compromised rear legroom in the back of a focus (for example) have I seen? So the focus got bigger, and the mondeo got bigger because the focus got bigger...
Why are we surprised that cars are changing the way that they are?
Older hot hatches which were pitched up against each other could lose based upon the fact that another car had more power, or wasn't so ragged in handling. Perhaps the comment about rear legroom or noise would come up, meaning that the more refined hatch would be the winner. Even between a Clio 172 and 182 there were changes of this ilk, and don't even start talking about the original master, the Golf GTi and its progression through the later 90's.
The hot hatch genre isn't the only one. You only have to look at the size cars are these days, compared to their previous incarnations. An Audi A4 is now A6 sized. And so on. How many press reviews talking about compromised rear legroom in the back of a focus (for example) have I seen? So the focus got bigger, and the mondeo got bigger because the focus got bigger...
Why are we surprised that cars are changing the way that they are?
I think the point is true of cars generally, not just hot hatches. My favorite era is the '80's and early nineties (with the late eighties being a sweet spot), the cars were quick enough to be fun and felt more direct and mechanical, period hot hatches were chuck-able and had a rawness. Today's cars are great technically and you can enjoy the performance, but they're generally too refined to have the same kind of engagement.
dezzabarks said:
Think you just described the GT86/BRZ...
The need to improve to compete for manufacturers has left handling/slide/legal speeds with niche products. It a world of 40mph back roads, the hot hatch is now looking moribund. Unless you buy an original..
Precisely. I don't understand this forum sometimes. It seems that a lot of people here would prefer more emphasis on fun that outright power and laptimes. Yet Toyota/Subaru bring out a car which is just that and then it's "too slow, "underpowered", "needs a turbo", etc.The need to improve to compete for manufacturers has left handling/slide/legal speeds with niche products. It a world of 40mph back roads, the hot hatch is now looking moribund. Unless you buy an original..
Yet the same criticisms aren't levelled at the MX5, an undeniable forum favourite, and a car with much the same ethos - fun over power.
Having driven a fair few of the 80's hot hatches mentioned in the article and none of the current crop, it's hard for me to compare. However the 205'GTI's, Golf GTI's, XR2 + XR2i's, Nova GTE's, R5 Turbos etc etc all seemed to give a huge amount of 'fun' and with very few of the modern electronic driver aids, trick suspension set ups or other gizmos. Basically what you got was a slightly hotter, lower and faster version of the cooking model in each range, with fancy alloys and a few bits of matt black vinyl and red lined embellishments.
But you were still happy to thrash the hell out of them round the twisty bits, cock up a rear wheel on the tight ones and end up at the pub/girlfriends house/local Police station with slight shake, a beating heart and an enormous grin. Of course even standard shopping cars these days would probably see most of them off in a straight line, but look what bloated, electronically controlled jellymoulds they have become.
Time to bring back entertainment and excitement at the smaller end of current manufacturers ranges.
But you were still happy to thrash the hell out of them round the twisty bits, cock up a rear wheel on the tight ones and end up at the pub/girlfriends house/local Police station with slight shake, a beating heart and an enormous grin. Of course even standard shopping cars these days would probably see most of them off in a straight line, but look what bloated, electronically controlled jellymoulds they have become.
Time to bring back entertainment and excitement at the smaller end of current manufacturers ranges.
Conscript said:
Precisely. I don't understand this forum sometimes. It seems that a lot of people here would prefer more emphasis on fun that outright power and laptimes. Yet Toyota/Subaru bring out a car which is just that and then it's "too slow, "underpowered", "needs a turbo", etc.
I assume it's different individuals. I think the GT86 would have been fabulous if they hadn't fitted electric power steering. 
Maldini35 said:
I thought it was an interesting article and tend to agree with the point being made.
James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
Well said that man. James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
I'm glad the rose-tinted glasses comment is there.
I've always had smaller cars - they just do the job (I prefer big cars in my head).
So, would I rather have a Nova SR over my Corsa VXR? HAhahahahAHhahAHahAHa... god no. Do I think they're cool? Sure (I like older Vauxhalls) but having to faff with chokes, balancing carburetors, ice on the inside of the windscreen... gee, no. My VXR isn't best of breed by a long shot, but it's comfortable, quick, frugal and leaves plenty behind it on the twistys.
Hot hatches are not dead.
I've always had smaller cars - they just do the job (I prefer big cars in my head).
So, would I rather have a Nova SR over my Corsa VXR? HAhahahahAHhahAHahAHa... god no. Do I think they're cool? Sure (I like older Vauxhalls) but having to faff with chokes, balancing carburetors, ice on the inside of the windscreen... gee, no. My VXR isn't best of breed by a long shot, but it's comfortable, quick, frugal and leaves plenty behind it on the twistys.
Hot hatches are not dead.
kambites said:
I assume it's different individuals. I think the GT86 would have been fabulous if they hadn't fitted electric power steering.
Perhaps I'm not as experienced a driver as most, but I hardly noticed the difference between the two systems. The steering feels precise, predictable and I get enough feedback from it to place the car quite accurately. Perhaps someone else might notice the drawbacks more, but I'll be honest I'm not sure what they should be. It feels a little more "refined" than my old MK3 MX5, but I thought that could be down to the GT86 being a newer car; my MX5 was 7 years old on 110K miles old when I got rid, and was feeling a little tired.Edited by Conscript on Thursday 7th August 14:11
Dr Interceptor said:
Hence why I mentioned the Fiesta ST... that seemed to strike the balance between performance and usable horsepower well. A car you could take by the scruff of the neck, and wring every last horse out of. Even that perhaps has too much power now though for the 'warm hatch' category... The MK6 ST only had 150hp... now you can take the ST over 200 with the Mountune kit.
So I guess there are now three levels of 'hot hatch'
1. The warm hatch - 110-160hp
2. The hot hatch - 160-230hp
3. Everything else at 230+ bhp
Of course the boundaries and numbers on that could be debated for ever.
I fell to the charms of the wee Swift having pedalled one round the Nordschleife courtesy of Rent 4 Ring, 125bhp, about a tonne in weight, no frills and plenty thrills hot hatch fun like the old times. I was actually after a Pug 205 Gti and having test drove one and then the Swift Sport realised it captures that fun with an engaging an capable drive. Plenty others in that category too. So I guess there are now three levels of 'hot hatch'
1. The warm hatch - 110-160hp
2. The hot hatch - 160-230hp
3. Everything else at 230+ bhp
Of course the boundaries and numbers on that could be debated for ever.
Dale487 said:
Example - drive a brand new 1.2 Vauxhall Corsa. Then drive a 1987 1.2 Nova. Tell me which is more fun.
I won't dispuse the Nova will be more fun but which one would you rather drive a 500 mile round trip in? Modern cars are more refined, comfortable, safer and at least as economical for the same power - the things that make a difference on the day to day not the one off b road blast.
Times have changed and you simply could not make a car that is a 30 year old design.
Article's about fun in hot hatches, not practicality/sensibility/refinement etc.......I won't dispuse the Nova will be more fun but which one would you rather drive a 500 mile round trip in? Modern cars are more refined, comfortable, safer and at least as economical for the same power - the things that make a difference on the day to day not the one off b road blast.
Times have changed and you simply could not make a car that is a 30 year old design.
Older cars are more fun. Fun doesn't mean better (in many cases the more sensible cars are the 'better' A-B car; see Audi vs. Alfa Romeo or something)
I agree with him that older cars are more fun, but you can't say they're better.
As previously mentioned there are a lot of hot hatchbacks that fit the bill.
Cooper S, Abarth 500, Swift sport, there are quite a few really good hot hatches that aren't about big numbers and are great fun.
God even something like a Mazda 2 sport or Fiesta Zetec S would be up your street.
But the main issue with the article is the Nurburgring hate, because the car he fails the mention in relation to his point was the amazingly involving r26.r!
The car that had journos foaming at the mouth at its fun factor as well as making every petrolhead wish their rear windows were plastic. It was awesome. Yet that is avoided to make his point, a point that is rather nostalgic, and just wrong with the mass of warm hatches on sale today.
The issue of 'too much for the road' is rather mute. I'm sure some would still find a Lancia Delta Intergrale 'a bit much' for the road, and back in the day the EVO 2 must have felt mighty fast given the 0-60 time is the same as a 300bhp Focus RS, and if I recall, the 0-100mph was rather mad as well. Cars are only really as fast as the last car you've driven, get out of your mums diesel corsa and your mx5 feels like a McLaren, get out of a McLaren and your Focus RS feels like your mums corsa.
I was hoping this was a 'where have all the light hatchbacks gone' article, with interesting points about how with modern eco units getting more and more powerful whilst still giving under 99g/co2, the hot hatches need to get lighter rather than more powerful to achieve fast, fun cars. Stick the 105bhp twin air in the boggo 500 at 865kg (205 gti was 875kg) and you have a Suzuki swift power to weight ratio, light weight and 0 road tax, a recipe for some serious fun.
Cooper S, Abarth 500, Swift sport, there are quite a few really good hot hatches that aren't about big numbers and are great fun.
God even something like a Mazda 2 sport or Fiesta Zetec S would be up your street.
But the main issue with the article is the Nurburgring hate, because the car he fails the mention in relation to his point was the amazingly involving r26.r!
The car that had journos foaming at the mouth at its fun factor as well as making every petrolhead wish their rear windows were plastic. It was awesome. Yet that is avoided to make his point, a point that is rather nostalgic, and just wrong with the mass of warm hatches on sale today.
The issue of 'too much for the road' is rather mute. I'm sure some would still find a Lancia Delta Intergrale 'a bit much' for the road, and back in the day the EVO 2 must have felt mighty fast given the 0-60 time is the same as a 300bhp Focus RS, and if I recall, the 0-100mph was rather mad as well. Cars are only really as fast as the last car you've driven, get out of your mums diesel corsa and your mx5 feels like a McLaren, get out of a McLaren and your Focus RS feels like your mums corsa.
I was hoping this was a 'where have all the light hatchbacks gone' article, with interesting points about how with modern eco units getting more and more powerful whilst still giving under 99g/co2, the hot hatches need to get lighter rather than more powerful to achieve fast, fun cars. Stick the 105bhp twin air in the boggo 500 at 865kg (205 gti was 875kg) and you have a Suzuki swift power to weight ratio, light weight and 0 road tax, a recipe for some serious fun.
Edited by Fantuzzi on Thursday 7th August 14:20
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