RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Matt_N said:
Go back to the launch of the Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and the inflation adjusted price is actually pretty similar.
I thought about inflate after my post, didnt realise it'd be that much.the point i am trying to make is that if like me you dont have a large wallet (depsite having the powerful company director build) you buy and enjoy older hot hatches.
i have heard lots of priase about the new st and will give it a look if my company car scheme allows it.
The funny thing is that the only time I have ever felt that the Swift Sport Mk1 was underpowered (despite having only 123bhp) was when on track. On the road it's perfectly adequate*.
This, of course, directly correlates with the preoccupation of manufacturers with the 'Ring.
( * - although a little extra power to help with overtakes, on the rare occasion that they become available, would be nice ).
This, of course, directly correlates with the preoccupation of manufacturers with the 'Ring.
( * - although a little extra power to help with overtakes, on the rare occasion that they become available, would be nice ).
WreckedGecko said:
Maldini35 said:
I thought it was an interesting article and tend to agree with the point being made.
James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
Well said that man. James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
It is a topic that has been discussed quite a few times. However, there's nothing wrong with re-opening the debate and having another go.
After all, many people are happy to chip in and make constructive comments.
Negative and rude comments are unnecessary making one look like a bit of a cretin.
Fantuzzi said:
As previously mentioned there are a lot of hot hatchbacks that fit the bill.
Cooper S, Abarth 500, Swift sport, there are quite a few really good hot hatches that aren't about big numbers and are great fun.
The thing is though that hot hatchbacks these days have at least 300 hp. The A45 AMG has 360 hp, twice the power of a R56 Cooper S. The latter is now a "warm hatchback" at best.Cooper S, Abarth 500, Swift sport, there are quite a few really good hot hatches that aren't about big numbers and are great fun.
As for the article, I wholeheartedly agree. And I think a lot of it has to do with tyres, their development in the recent years and the tire dimensions on current hot hatchbacks.
Look at the Chris Harris C63 on space savers video or the normal GT86 with its very skinny tyres — all massively more "fun" than the same car on wide sticky rubber.
But good luck marketing a sports car that’s massively fun to drive but one minute slower around the definite benchmark for everything on four wheels (also known as Nürburgring) than it could be.
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
I keep telling myself that by and large, PH isn't full of rude tossers who are incapable of articulating their point without being, well, rude tossers.Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
However, it isn't easy, not when the rude tossers make their presence so well felt, as seen here in the very first post
JamesD1 said:
Matt_N said:
Go back to the launch of the Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and the inflation adjusted price is actually pretty similar.
I thought about inflate after my post, didnt realise it'd be that much.the point i am trying to make is that if like me you dont have a large wallet (depsite having the powerful company director build) you buy and enjoy older hot hatches.
i have heard lots of priase about the new st and will give it a look if my company car scheme allows it.
Think back to the 80s when Mk2 Golfs and 205s were out, how many of these cars were being bought on PCP/lease deals for X per month and how new cars depreciate as a result.
The entire buying process has changed considerably.
os
The issue is that in the countryside, safe speed is most often dictated by the distance you can see, rather than the speed that your car can take the bend / bump. Modern cars are so much more able now, but our eyes are no better than in 1900...
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
Diagree. Old school hot hatches were loads of fun on the twisties, but to get to similar feelings of excitement now, you'd have to be in the "probably too fast to be safe" territory. Loads of modern cars suffer from this of course (modern Porsches, any Caterham which has IRS, modern Lambos - and loads more besides). Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
The issue is that in the countryside, safe speed is most often dictated by the distance you can see, rather than the speed that your car can take the bend / bump. Modern cars are so much more able now, but our eyes are no better than in 1900...
I think the terminology has to move on, really.
A Golf R is not a hot hatch in any real sense - it is a medium-sized performance car.
There is a fair bit of fun to be had in small, FWD cars with about 150-200 bhp, though.
I did laugh at the idea of a "warm hatch" with 110bhp. Most hatches are now so heavy that 110bhp wouldn't get the car up a slight incline, let alone make it fun to drive. The 116i that I test drove was glacially slow, even before you note the dull handling and lack of any feedback.
A manufacturer could quite easily build a lighter version of the shopping cars we all like (maybe about 1150kg) and give it 170bhp and smallish tyres. Barely anyone would buy it.
A Golf R is not a hot hatch in any real sense - it is a medium-sized performance car.
There is a fair bit of fun to be had in small, FWD cars with about 150-200 bhp, though.
I did laugh at the idea of a "warm hatch" with 110bhp. Most hatches are now so heavy that 110bhp wouldn't get the car up a slight incline, let alone make it fun to drive. The 116i that I test drove was glacially slow, even before you note the dull handling and lack of any feedback.
A manufacturer could quite easily build a lighter version of the shopping cars we all like (maybe about 1150kg) and give it 170bhp and smallish tyres. Barely anyone would buy it.
kambites said:
I wonder how much of the playfulness could be reinjected into modern warm hatchbacks simply by fitting narrower, harder tyres on smaller wheels? I'd love to try driving something like a Swift Sport with 145s on 14 inch wheels. Is there a place in the tyre market for low-grip but sporty (in terms of feedback, breakaway linearity, etc.) tyres?
Exactly. To me the single biggest factor nowadays is tyres. Edited by kambites on Thursday 7th August 13:50
My 205 GTI doesn't move around like an 80s 205, if I stuck dodgy chinese tyres on I'm sure I could re-create the original handling, but I'm not convinced I want to.
When I put a pair of no-name tyres on the back of my race MR2 at the end of a test session it certainly made for a more lively car. (It was 3 seconds a lap slower around Brands Indy circuit though).
Edited by SmartVenom on Thursday 7th August 14:35
Tyres help a lot. Little doubt that my 205 is less susceptible to lift-off oversteer on good quality rubber.
But, it still feels a lot faster on a B road than it is. That is the thing - I can have great fun on an appropriate road at legal speeds in it. Suspension is compliant and with 185/60 R14 tyres potholes are dispensed with a bounce rather than a crash and judder into them.
And the car is alive: there are dials that move rather than warning lights that simply light up. It's nice seeing the water temp, oil temp, oil pressure changing depending on how you are driving.
But, it still feels a lot faster on a B road than it is. That is the thing - I can have great fun on an appropriate road at legal speeds in it. Suspension is compliant and with 185/60 R14 tyres potholes are dispensed with a bounce rather than a crash and judder into them.
And the car is alive: there are dials that move rather than warning lights that simply light up. It's nice seeing the water temp, oil temp, oil pressure changing depending on how you are driving.
ORD said:
I did laugh at the idea of a "warm hatch" with 110bhp. Most hatches are now so heavy that 110bhp wouldn't get the car up a slight incline, let alone make it fun to drive. The 116i that I test drove was glacially slow, even before you note the dull handling and lack of any feedback.
It depends on how much weight that 110bhp has to pull (or push). The Swift Sport Mk1 (sorry to bang on about it, but it's the one I have direct experience of) is just over a tonne. The BMW 1-series has about 35% extra lard to cart around (the 5-door is 1395kg according to the BMW website)
Edit: Can't find the exact weight of the Mk1 but the 136bhp Mk2 is 1045kg, and is heavier than the 123bhp Mk1, so power-to-weight will be similar.
Edited by JonRB on Thursday 7th August 14:46
ECG1000 said:
WreckedGecko said:
Maldini35 said:
I thought it was an interesting article and tend to agree with the point being made.
James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
Well said that man. James - Don't worry about the few aggressive (bloody rude) pedants who seem to post a lot on here - they really don't represent the majority.
PH shouldn't let these keyboard warriors dominate the debate - I mean who wants to be associated with a bunch of surly, abusive know it all's? Healthy debate is fine but condescending pedantry is just dull and will drive people away from the site.
It is a topic that has been discussed quite a few times. However, there's nothing wrong with re-opening the debate and having another go.
After all, many people are happy to chip in and make constructive comments.
Negative and rude comments are unnecessary making one look like a bit of a cretin.
My 2p, hot hatches are always one engine behind.
The current Golf R is all lovely, but really that engine needs to be in the Polo. The Polo is the one that is aspirational as a little punchy hatch... the Golf being more a big lardy family car these days.
Same with so many cars over the years really... model drift means a hot hatch that is the size of say the Focus RS is still considered a hot hatch, when it's actually a luxo-barge in the same vein as the Carlton GSI or Granada Cosworth in my eyes... serious un-cool really.
Dave
I think I'm with the new guy here.
Very happy with my current Civic Type-R (EK9) with its overall balance, simplicity and rawness.
As much as I'm looking forward to the new turbocharged model, I'm not sure if it'll put as big a smile on my face.
I've always believed fast and fun are two different things
Very happy with my current Civic Type-R (EK9) with its overall balance, simplicity and rawness.
As much as I'm looking forward to the new turbocharged model, I'm not sure if it'll put as big a smile on my face.
I've always believed fast and fun are two different things
EricE said:
Fantuzzi said:
As previously mentioned there are a lot of hot hatchbacks that fit the bill.
Cooper S, Abarth 500, Swift sport, there are quite a few really good hot hatches that aren't about big numbers and are great fun.
The thing is though that hot hatchbacks these days have at least 300 hp. The A45 AMG has 360 hp, twice the power of a R56 Cooper S. The latter is now a "warm hatchback" at best.Cooper S, Abarth 500, Swift sport, there are quite a few really good hot hatches that aren't about big numbers and are great fun.
The issue in the article was that they are 'too' much, which is fine, but their wasn't any reference how the warm hatchbacks are what petrolheads really want not 300+ monsters. An article that started off with the gist of high power big grip isn't fun, then went on to praise the warm hatch and had a 'that's what we need more of' vibe would have got a lot of love.
But the warm hatches are available and in good numbers with some decent choice, so RIP wasn't relevant, as they are live and well! You cant have a cap on power, so it right the power increases. Perceptions change on speed and power, the AMG that you mentioned will feel slow in 20 years time, just as a 205 gti doesn't have headline stats today, but there shouldn't be power cut off because some people want some lift off oversteer!
Regardless of whether they are classed as 'hot', 'warm', 'tepid' or 'hot enough for a bath but not for a cup of tea' hatches, the car he is after is available and in great numbers.
TheJimi said:
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
I keep telling myself that by and large, PH isn't full of rude tossers who are incapable of articulating their point without being, well, rude tossers.Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
However, it isn't easy, not when the rude tossers make their presence so well felt, as seen here in the very first post
A shame most of the smallest hatches these days all look like mini people carriers like Zafira or something. Even with a fancy engine they'd probably be crap.
There are still some gems out there, but there is an obsession with loads of power in fwd cars that are really just big family cars. Lame.
There are still some gems out there, but there is an obsession with loads of power in fwd cars that are really just big family cars. Lame.
Probably done to death already on this thread, but hot hatches (defined as fun, but not necessarily fast, at least in my book) do exist, such as the previously mentioned Swift Sport, Twingo Renaultsport, Fiesta ST and Abarth 500/595. All fun, without breaking the speedlimit. (much)
With regards the likes of the Leon Cupra, Golf R, M135i, A45 AMG etc., I don't categorise those at hot hatches. Hatch-shaped yes, quick, yes. Fun? Debatable. In essence, they are what the hyper saloon used to be, just now in hatch form. EVO dubbed these 'hyperhatches' (I think in an article covering an RS3, Focus RS mk2 and an Impreza STI hatch) and perhaps the name is enough to distinguish their different driving experience from those of the hot hatch.
With regards the likes of the Leon Cupra, Golf R, M135i, A45 AMG etc., I don't categorise those at hot hatches. Hatch-shaped yes, quick, yes. Fun? Debatable. In essence, they are what the hyper saloon used to be, just now in hatch form. EVO dubbed these 'hyperhatches' (I think in an article covering an RS3, Focus RS mk2 and an Impreza STI hatch) and perhaps the name is enough to distinguish their different driving experience from those of the hot hatch.
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