RE: Speed Matters? PH Blog
Discussion
Actually I feel the same about the Caparo/Bugati as I do about you Chris when I see your driving shenanigans, all rather irrelevant. However you seem like a sincere sort of bloke; and your drive in the Lola T70 at the Silverstone Classic was hugely entertaining to watch, so I guess we must all be suitably tolerant of others foibles and celebrate the individuality, character and colour in all our differences?
Edited by Ipelm on Sunday 10th August 23:44
lukefreeman said:
FrankUnderwood said:
Speaking as an engineer and a car enthusiast I find designs like the original Elan and Elise more impressive in their intentions 
That doesn't make sense, veryon is far more of an engineers wet dream. Edited by FrankUnderwood on Friday 8th August 20:09
Engineers find elegant solutions - ideally from a blank sheet of paper - ideally with sensible and meaningful requirements.
The Veyron started as an idea for an engine and had requirements thrown at it "because they sounded good" until it became a s
tstorm of OTT engineering.That's the worst thing for an engineer to work - it's the "great, it's a car, why don't we make it float - and fly - and make toast!!" school of engineering design...
pfoster said:
Veyron:
Maybe it's that despite the mad stats VW will still somehow make it feel 'safe' rather than embrace the lunacy like Henessey?
Maybe it's because I have 10 times more respect for someone running an old Type 35 or similar? Having watched the Bugatti race at Goodwood earlier this year they have far bigger kahunas (including Mrs De Baldanza!)than any willy-waving Veyron fashion victim (who probably also wears their trousers far too high up the waist, Simon).
Maybe it's because I'm a curmudgeonly old git, and proud!
Why would anyone want bigger Hawaiian shamen/priests sorcerer magician wizard magician or king? I think you mean cojones, Spanish for testicles/bo11ocks.Maybe it's that despite the mad stats VW will still somehow make it feel 'safe' rather than embrace the lunacy like Henessey?
Maybe it's because I have 10 times more respect for someone running an old Type 35 or similar? Having watched the Bugatti race at Goodwood earlier this year they have far bigger kahunas (including Mrs De Baldanza!)than any willy-waving Veyron fashion victim (who probably also wears their trousers far too high up the waist, Simon).
Maybe it's because I'm a curmudgeonly old git, and proud!
If Bugatti want to make "son of Veyron" that is even faster, I say let them go for it - as others have alluded to, it's the pursuit of the whole "because it's there" ideal, like Thrust SSC.
But if they are going to do it, please design a new grille. I know it's the "classic" Bugatti horseshoe shape, but on the Veyron it just looks like someone's stuck a chintzy fireplace to the front.
But if they are going to do it, please design a new grille. I know it's the "classic" Bugatti horseshoe shape, but on the Veyron it just looks like someone's stuck a chintzy fireplace to the front.
I always quite liked the idea of the Caparo T1. A low weight, high powered, mid-engined set-up is a great basis for a track car, though hardly original. Adding a really significant aero package is what really made the Caparo stand out. Downforce is a strange thing, it has the potential to make you much faster but I'm not convinced that it makes driving more entertaining largely because it also seems to have the potential to suddenly kill you. Particularly in a car that you can drive on a public road. Still I liked the idea that T1 was available as an extreme road and track car for people much braver than me. It's a shame that the only lap time they've ever gone for was the Top Gear one, I feel the car needs a Spa or Nordschleife time to be taken seriously given it's cost and specification potential.
The real failure of the T1 was the epic marketing blunder of releasing the car to the press before it's development was complete. The negative publicity generated by multiple high profile testing failures still characterises the brand. To counter this it's worth watching Evo's cross country jaunt in a T1 from Anglesey to Snetterton, a faultless and clearly entertaining drive that included crossing Birmingham in the rush hour.
The new Evo model they're proposing seems to subscribe to the "more is more" principle including the price which now starts at 1.1mill Euros. This does not however make the car more interesting.
Having said that I find the Bugatti even less riveting. It's not really a car to enjoy driving, it's a car to enjoy being seen driving. It's a superbly engineered, mildly ridiculous status symbol and as such, more power + more bling + more cost = more betterer. Think of it as half a Fabergé egg rather than as a car.
The real failure of the T1 was the epic marketing blunder of releasing the car to the press before it's development was complete. The negative publicity generated by multiple high profile testing failures still characterises the brand. To counter this it's worth watching Evo's cross country jaunt in a T1 from Anglesey to Snetterton, a faultless and clearly entertaining drive that included crossing Birmingham in the rush hour.
The new Evo model they're proposing seems to subscribe to the "more is more" principle including the price which now starts at 1.1mill Euros. This does not however make the car more interesting.
Having said that I find the Bugatti even less riveting. It's not really a car to enjoy driving, it's a car to enjoy being seen driving. It's a superbly engineered, mildly ridiculous status symbol and as such, more power + more bling + more cost = more betterer. Think of it as half a Fabergé egg rather than as a car.
lukefreeman said:
FrankUnderwood said:
Speaking as an engineer and a car enthusiast I find designs like the original Elan and Elise more impressive in their intentions
That doesn't make sense, veryon is far more of an engineers wet dream. Edited by FrankUnderwood on Friday 8th August 20:09
Innovation is key. There is a difference between engineering well and innovating
A more modern example of what I mean is Mclaren - They're obsessed with lightness and perfection through innovation. They don't 'push the envelope' because they don't believe one exists in the first place.
For the supercar/sports car market, everyone is playing catch up. They have the fastest, easiest, most comfortable car by a mile.
The designer (Gordon Murray) of the first Mclaren road car - The F1 - owns an Elan and rates it as the best handling car he's ever driven. I suspect that some of his (and McLaren's) thinking was inspired by the little Lotus. It weighed just 700kg through a clever construction, had disc brakes, independent suspension, dual overhead cam engine - All in 1960.
The Veyron etc strikes me as 'well engineered' but certainly not a game changer. It'll be used as an example of great engineering but not as a piece of inspiration.
Edited by FrankUnderwood on Monday 11th August 13:36
Love reading the armchair engineers talking about how it's oh so unimpressive building an entirely reliable and usable 1,000-hp car and how clever it is to build a super little track car. Sadly, around 100% of spanner users on the forum could knock up a Caterham type car in their garage with minimal effort. I doubt that more than a handful could put together a petrol engine that could make 1,000-hp, let alone one that can sit in busy traffic without overheating. And as for making if top 290mph, make that none of us. I'm guessing that you'll be telling us that Concorde was rubbish too?
That you have a personal opinion is fine, but please steer clear of passing it off as fact. The Veyron is an engineering masterpiece.
And as for Mr.535d - if top speed is for twunts, you must have lots of fun at your 0-60mpg events. And don't forget the tissues. Makes me wonder why you didn't buy the 518d. Of better still a VW Up! (You do the total cost of ownership over a given mileage, remembering to apply a realistic hurdle rate on your discounted cash flow).
That you have a personal opinion is fine, but please steer clear of passing it off as fact. The Veyron is an engineering masterpiece.
And as for Mr.535d - if top speed is for twunts, you must have lots of fun at your 0-60mpg events. And don't forget the tissues. Makes me wonder why you didn't buy the 518d. Of better still a VW Up! (You do the total cost of ownership over a given mileage, remembering to apply a realistic hurdle rate on your discounted cash flow).
I guess it's just the kid in me, but I'm glad that we're still pushing the boundaries of speed. The P1, LaF, and 918 are all extremely impressive engineering marvels, and I look forward to the day when I see them in-person, but I've always wondered why their top speed isn't any higher than the supercars of 20+ years ago. It seems like an almost arbitrary number (~217 for all of them, IIRC), as if they have self-imposed a "gentleman's agreement" like the Japanese 276 bhp limit in the '90s.
I understand that the XJ220, EB110, and McLaren F1 were all uncompromising brutes in a single-minded quest for top speed and that the current trio are more practical, easier to drive, handle better, and are superior in almost every way. I'm also thoroughly impressed at just how the P1 shatters the Veyron's acceleration times. I know that top speed is largely about willy-waving and is largely irrelevant for road cars. However, I firmly believe there is still a place for top speed one-trick-ponies.
The McLaren F1, XJ220, F40, and EB110 of my youth were so extraordinary because of their single-mindedness, not in spite of it.
We topped 200 MPH in production cars over a quarter century ago. I'd like to see 300 MPH in my lifetime, and talk of 285 and 290 mph supercars makes me think it will happen. It will no doubt be an extraordinary engineering challenge to eke out those last 10/15 mph, but isn't that the whole point? Pushing the boundaries of what we can do and giving two fingers to the people who say it isn't possible. Charles Lindbergh, Chuck Yeager, Apollo 11, the Campbells, Andy Green, Thrust SSC, Bloodhound. The human spirit craves challenges such as these. It could be argued that the efforts and achievements of any of the aforementioned are "irrelevant". We do it because we can, not because of necessity; it's what humans do.
I understand that the XJ220, EB110, and McLaren F1 were all uncompromising brutes in a single-minded quest for top speed and that the current trio are more practical, easier to drive, handle better, and are superior in almost every way. I'm also thoroughly impressed at just how the P1 shatters the Veyron's acceleration times. I know that top speed is largely about willy-waving and is largely irrelevant for road cars. However, I firmly believe there is still a place for top speed one-trick-ponies.
The McLaren F1, XJ220, F40, and EB110 of my youth were so extraordinary because of their single-mindedness, not in spite of it.
We topped 200 MPH in production cars over a quarter century ago. I'd like to see 300 MPH in my lifetime, and talk of 285 and 290 mph supercars makes me think it will happen. It will no doubt be an extraordinary engineering challenge to eke out those last 10/15 mph, but isn't that the whole point? Pushing the boundaries of what we can do and giving two fingers to the people who say it isn't possible. Charles Lindbergh, Chuck Yeager, Apollo 11, the Campbells, Andy Green, Thrust SSC, Bloodhound. The human spirit craves challenges such as these. It could be argued that the efforts and achievements of any of the aforementioned are "irrelevant". We do it because we can, not because of necessity; it's what humans do.
ArnieVXR said:
Love reading the armchair engineers talking about how it's oh so unimpressive building an entirely reliable and usable 1,000-hp car and how clever it is to build a super little track car. Sadly, around 100% of spanner users on the forum could knock up a Caterham type car in their garage with minimal effort. I doubt that more than a handful could put together a petrol engine that could make 1,000-hp, let alone one that can sit in busy traffic without overheating. And as for making if top 290mph, make that none of us. I'm guessing that you'll be telling us that Concorde was rubbish too?
That you have a personal opinion is fine, but please steer clear of passing it off as fact. The Veyron is an engineering masterpiece.
And as for Mr.535d - if top speed is for twunts, you must have lots of fun at your 0-60mpg events. And don't forget the tissues. Makes me wonder why you didn't buy the 518d. Of better still a VW Up! (You do the total cost of ownership over a given mileage, remembering to apply a realistic hurdle rate on your discounted cash flow).
This.That you have a personal opinion is fine, but please steer clear of passing it off as fact. The Veyron is an engineering masterpiece.
And as for Mr.535d - if top speed is for twunts, you must have lots of fun at your 0-60mpg events. And don't forget the tissues. Makes me wonder why you didn't buy the 518d. Of better still a VW Up! (You do the total cost of ownership over a given mileage, remembering to apply a realistic hurdle rate on your discounted cash flow).
Bugatti DEFINITELY need a faster Veyron. Much faster!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zj2h-3AeiM&li...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zj2h-3AeiM&li...
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