RE: Speed Matters? PH Blog
Discussion
Marwood79 said:
The Pits said:
The zenith of purely mechanical engineering has already come and gone
I agree with you, but what was it though? Zonda R?Sure, they have a lot of electrickery to help work alongside the mechanicals, but the mechanicals in cars like the P1 etc etc are every bit as good (and the rest) of the older cars.
Plus, a Zonda R was never a road car.
Fetchez la vache said:
I agree about the Caparo, not he bug.
I think the same. If the Veyron can get to 300 mph then it will be a real landmark car. But otherwise it's just another increment. If Bugatti got the Veyron down to 1,600kg, 50 mpg (real world) and 300 mph, then that would be a real achievement. Porsche have shown the way with the 918 in terms of economy, let's see Bugatti do the same. The top speed chase is too unimaginative and largely irrelevant. Porsche, McLaren and Ferrari have focused more on the experience and agility than on top speed and they are all the better for it. crostonian said:
Wonder how the market would react if the next 458/McLaren 650/911 GT3 etc had less power than it's predecessor and a lower top speed. Instead it was lighter, more efficient and quicker up to 150mph for example and also quicker over a country road due to it being smaller and lighter.
Can't they already buy a Lotus if they wanted that?The drive for greater efficiency promised us lighter, faster, cars but clearly the market doesn't want them yet. The new GT3 is bigger, heavier, more powerful and much more complicated than the 997 and punters are queuing around the block for them. Most people want fast, sophisticated, undemanding luxury cars with a prestigious badge. All the better if it has a reputation for being a 'drivers car' yet is actually very easy to drive. Not many really want hardcore, focused, cars.
At 1176kg and with 345bhp the Exige V6 is already in fantasy Cayman RS spec and all for a little over £50k. Many more people are currently writing out bigger cheques for a 220kg heavier Cayman S with 20 less bhp.
Marwood79 said:
I agree with you, but what was it though? Zonda R?
A very good question but the answer will ultimately be subjective.Could be something for another topic but limiting it to road cars I'd be tempted to go with the McLaren F1.
With values over £3m and rising the market would back that up.
I appreciate the technology and achievement when considering the Veyron. Building something that fast when retaining usability and reliability is something of a marvel. I don't like it though. Perhaps it's my age, my taste, or both, but it's just an overindulgent willy extension for people that don't really care about driving but want a certain image; to say, "my car is considerably faster than yours."
As for the Caparo, it holds some appeal but, as Chris has pointed out, it doesn't work. It's also just too much in a world full of perfectly adequate track day cars.
The Hennessy thing doesn't really appeal either, certainly not as a road car. I see it in the same light as highly tuned Toyota Supras and the like.
As for the Caparo, it holds some appeal but, as Chris has pointed out, it doesn't work. It's also just too much in a world full of perfectly adequate track day cars.
The Hennessy thing doesn't really appeal either, certainly not as a road car. I see it in the same light as highly tuned Toyota Supras and the like.
The Veyron is the car that set a bench mark. I don't know how many time I have heard "faster then a Veyron or more bhp per tone than a Veyron" e.t.c.
But how much of the 200bhp of the 200bhp car do we user every day.
Any thing that brakes these limits is good keeping in mind what will result is about experimenting not driving every day.
But how much of the 200bhp of the 200bhp car do we user every day.
Any thing that brakes these limits is good keeping in mind what will result is about experimenting not driving every day.
The Pits said:
Marwood79 said:
I agree with you, but what was it though? Zonda R?
A very good question but the answer will ultimately be subjective.Could be something for another topic but limiting it to road cars I'd be tempted to go with the McLaren F1.
With values over £3m and rising the market would back that up.
The trouble with making the fastest (anything) is that the next one you make has to be faster.
Imagine the uproar if the next Veyron "only" did 245mph, it'd be a marketing disaster.
Although this is why Ring times are held in such high regard, anyone can make a drag racer, but a faster Ring time needs a car to be better in all sorts of ways not just in top speed.
Imagine the uproar if the next Veyron "only" did 245mph, it'd be a marketing disaster.
Although this is why Ring times are held in such high regard, anyone can make a drag racer, but a faster Ring time needs a car to be better in all sorts of ways not just in top speed.
Dismissing the Veyron's capabilities as an irrelevance is a bit like buying a Range Rover and never using it to cross the Sahara. You bought into the Range Rover's image based on its abilities (although these abilities are never going to be tested to extreme while pootling to the shops in 2 inches of UK snow), yet are now berating the Bugatti's repertoire simply because not every owner will hit vmax.
Of course the Veyron's top speed matters. Of course the Range Rover's breadth of ability matters. Just because you don't, the idea that you can is the important one.
Of course the Veyron's top speed matters. Of course the Range Rover's breadth of ability matters. Just because you don't, the idea that you can is the important one.
crostonian said:
Wonder how the market would react if the next 458/McLaren 650/911 GT3 etc had less power than it's predecessor and a lower top speed. Instead it was lighter, more efficient and quicker up to 150mph for example and also quicker over a country road due to it being smaller and lighter.
And thus had a better 'ring time. And the moans would begin?There's an interesting parallel with the earlier blog piece about hot hatches and how they're not as much fun they used to be.
Isn't this the inevitable story about technology?
What we've seen in car design in the last twenty years is an inexorable rise in horsepower, but also coupled with — or perhaps driven by — a increase in safety requirements. The regs have demanded safer cars which are heavier and thus need more power to push them along to greater top speeds, but meaning the incremental driving experience is more predictable and less exciting at less than maximum attack.
In 1996 David Yu and I were given the keys to one of Rare Imports' R32 Skyline GTRs and told to go have some fun — which we did. It was a bog standard car (which they all were then), 280 bhp and shod with awful Avon tyres. That car was one of the most entertaining either of us had ever driven, simply because it was slipping and sliding all over the road. Very different to David's Godzilla R35 GTR.
With cars like the Veyron or whatever Bugatti are planning, it's about a number, nothing else. And if that's its maximum speed, it's going to be pretty anodyne all the way up to that.
For cars to be exciting at useable (read: legal) speeds, they can't be technologically advanced because the technology pushes limits and is measured only in hard numbers, whereas excitement is measured through the seat of your pants.
Oh, and money.
Isn't this the inevitable story about technology?
What we've seen in car design in the last twenty years is an inexorable rise in horsepower, but also coupled with — or perhaps driven by — a increase in safety requirements. The regs have demanded safer cars which are heavier and thus need more power to push them along to greater top speeds, but meaning the incremental driving experience is more predictable and less exciting at less than maximum attack.
In 1996 David Yu and I were given the keys to one of Rare Imports' R32 Skyline GTRs and told to go have some fun — which we did. It was a bog standard car (which they all were then), 280 bhp and shod with awful Avon tyres. That car was one of the most entertaining either of us had ever driven, simply because it was slipping and sliding all over the road. Very different to David's Godzilla R35 GTR.
With cars like the Veyron or whatever Bugatti are planning, it's about a number, nothing else. And if that's its maximum speed, it's going to be pretty anodyne all the way up to that.
For cars to be exciting at useable (read: legal) speeds, they can't be technologically advanced because the technology pushes limits and is measured only in hard numbers, whereas excitement is measured through the seat of your pants.
Oh, and money.
I can see the logic in making another veyron model - afterall it cost so much to develop can Bugatti actually afford to completely design a new car? Are they even making any profit from them anyway as I thought they had lost out big time in production costs. Having only ever seen a handful in real life I can't say I was overwhelmed with the look of a veyron, but I'd love to see all the mechanicals underneath.
1400bhp though! When I passed my test an MG Metro was my trusty steed and an optimistic 60bhp was enough to scare me. Nowadays I have 450 to do the same which is more than enough.
As for the Caparo then I can't see the point. When are you supposed to use it? Its too close to a race car that you'd never seriously drive it on the road. Its probably too loud for your average trackday so you might aswell stick to something more practical for the road and more bonkers for the track, with cool stickers & slick tyres.
1400bhp though! When I passed my test an MG Metro was my trusty steed and an optimistic 60bhp was enough to scare me. Nowadays I have 450 to do the same which is more than enough.
As for the Caparo then I can't see the point. When are you supposed to use it? Its too close to a race car that you'd never seriously drive it on the road. Its probably too loud for your average trackday so you might aswell stick to something more practical for the road and more bonkers for the track, with cool stickers & slick tyres.
E65Ross said:
Marwood79 said:
The Pits said:
The zenith of purely mechanical engineering has already come and gone
I agree with you, but what was it though? Zonda R?Sure, they have a lot of electrickery to help work alongside the mechanicals, but the mechanicals in cars like the P1 etc etc are every bit as good (and the rest) of the older cars.
Plus, a Zonda R was never a road car.
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