Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Flemke -
Do you watch the market rates of F1's ? or does it not really interest you a jot, as perhaps largely irrelevant ?
Whilst I don't actively seek it out, more information comes my way than what is in the public domain. It does interest me, but I don't keep track of it apart from remembering some of what I have been told. I can think of the (approximate) sales prices of three cars that have changed hands in the last nine months, although for all I know there could have been more sales than that. Do you watch the market rates of F1's ? or does it not really interest you a jot, as perhaps largely irrelevant ?
flemke said:
Whilst I don't actively seek it out, more information comes my way than what is in the public domain. It does interest me, but I don't keep track of it apart from remembering some of what I have been told. I can think of the (approximate) sales prices of three cars that have changed hands in the last nine months, although for all I know there could have been more sales than that.
I am aware of a few over about the same timeframe but I'm a week or so out of date on that.Edited by hurstg01 on Friday 17th February 10:59
flemke said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Flemke -
Do you watch the market rates of F1's ? or does it not really interest you a jot, as perhaps largely irrelevant ?
Whilst I don't actively seek it out, more information comes my way than what is in the public domain. It does interest me, but I don't keep track of it apart from remembering some of what I have been told. I can think of the (approximate) sales prices of three cars that have changed hands in the last nine months, although for all I know there could have been more sales than that. Do you watch the market rates of F1's ? or does it not really interest you a jot, as perhaps largely irrelevant ?
thegreenhell said:
So what's the going rate now?
Obi Wan said:
How much would a gtr or an LM be?
A couple of months ago a "normal" F1 sold for more than £12m.As Peloton says, shortly before that a road car sold for approximately £20m, although that car had a special provenance. There is currently for sale another road car, also with a special provenance, and the asking price for that is well north of £20m.
LMs are so few that one could not say that there is a "market" for them. My guess is that a seller could get in excess of £25m.
GTRs are another story. For most of their life, GTRs have sold for less than standard road cars have done. Although some people would disagree with me, as far as I am concerned the only GTR with a truly outstanding provenance is the Le Mans winner. The rest of the GTRs did not do much, or did just okay or pretty well, during their era, which was one of the least glorious periods in sports car racing, but they did nothing all that special. Also, there were 28 of them, which for most racing cars is not a small build-run.
Saying that, a high-profile GTR was owned by a vintage racing car dealer who is well-connected in that world. He talked up the values of GTRs, and especially his own, so effectively that, a year or so ago, he sold his car for (what I thought was) an outrageous price, nearly double the going rate for road cars at the time. More recently, a long-tail GTR (which needed restoration work) sold, AIUI, for about a 25-30% discount to the road car price. That seemed to me to be about right.
I mentioned that the one exception was the GTR that won Le Mans. I believe that, two or three years ago, McLaren were offered IRO of $40m (note, that is US) for the car and turned it down. Ron would have made that call. Now that he is no longer running the show, perhaps the controlling shareholders would be more open to monetising that particular asset - I could not say.
The trouble with cars that get to this level of value is that they end up locked away and are only brought out for shows. Trailered there and back.
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
Storer said:
The trouble with cars that get to this level of value is that they end up locked away and are only brought out for shows. Trailered there and back.
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
Taxation on cars depends where in the world you are. The reason these things have appreciated to such a level is the amount of people with vast sums of cash has risen at a rate never before seen and assets such as these are finite. The F1 is the modern 250 GTO, the question is what will be the next F1?An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
ex1 said:
Storer said:
The trouble with cars that get to this level of value is that they end up locked away and are only brought out for shows. Trailered there and back.
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
Taxation on cars depends where in the world you are. The reason these things have appreciated to such a level is the amount of people with vast sums of cash has risen at a rate never before seen and assets such as these are finite. The F1 is the modern 250 GTO, the question is what will be the next F1?An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
For some years my thesis on investing in "elite" collectible cars has been that
- there is an incredible and growing number of persons who have far more wealth than they need,
- many of these people like to "enjoy" (including showing off to other people) their wealth,
- a disproportionate % of these people are male,
- and that exceptional, expensive cars are a very attractive means for boys to show off their wealth.
Cars are mobile and can be shown off at almost any time and place, they do not require the observer to travel to see them (unlike houses), they do not require specialised skills or professional support in order to be enjoyed (unlike yachts and jet planes), they can be appreciated by most people (unlike art), and they can be fun (unlike stocks and bonds).
Hence I expect the collectible car market to continue its upward trend (allowing of course for volatility along the way). I think the main long-term risks to it are anti-car sentiment stoked by the green lobby and, potentially, difficulty for either regulatory or economic reasons in conveniently buying petrol.
Krikkit said:
I know this is probably a) a silly question and b) covered in previous volumes, but can the F1 gear stick be swapped from right to left? The binnacles look the same size/shape etc, so I presume so...
It would not work properly, as the car has a transverse gearbox/transaxle and the shifter cable routing, which now runs straight back from the stick to the housing, would have to be re-routed along some convoluted path. It might "work", in the sense that you could get the selector forks to change position, but it would be a corrupted, inefficient action.
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