Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
I think surely if you're going to have a squiggle of some kind, it should have some thought and meaning to it. Just a random squiggle for the sake of having one is a bit rubbish really.
Much the same with tattoos/tramp stamps. They look good and I'm all for them if there's some thought behind it, but a lot of the time they're just there because the person wanted a tattoo and thus, there's no thought and they tend to look s
te.
Much the same with tattoos/tramp stamps. They look good and I'm all for them if there's some thought behind it, but a lot of the time they're just there because the person wanted a tattoo and thus, there's no thought and they tend to look s
te.My issue with the work done so far is that it's a non symmetrical scroll in a Steve Kafka style, and I'm not a fan of his work, but the symmetrical dagger style would likely be much more effective. When you've only got one piece of striping in the centre of a panel as on the F1 it needs to be symmetrical, the scrolling would have worked if it was on one of the quarter panels or B pillar or something and then mirrored on the other side.
F1GTRUeno said:
I think surely if you're going to have a squiggle of some kind, it should have some thought and meaning to it. Just a random squiggle for the sake of having one is a bit rubbish really.
Much the same with tattoos/tramp stamps. They look good and I'm all for them if there's some thought behind it, but a lot of the time they're just there because the person wanted a tattoo and thus, there's no thought and they tend to look ste.
Much the same with tattoos/tramp stamps. They look good and I'm all for them if there's some thought behind it, but a lot of the time they're just there because the person wanted a tattoo and thus, there's no thought and they tend to look s
te.
Would you say that there is any meaning or thought to this?
AlmostUseful said:
My issue with the work done so far is that it's a non symmetrical scroll in a Steve Kafka style, and I'm not a fan of his work, but the symmetrical dagger style would likely be much more effective. When you've only got one piece of striping in the centre of a panel as on the F1 it needs to be symmetrical, the scrolling would have worked if it was on one of the quarter panels or B pillar or something and then mirrored on the other side.
Symmetry was the question. The chap who did the striping (along the sides, which were more important, as well as on the bonnet) is as far as I know the top pinstriper in UK.
I too think of symmetry as being the default option. He did several symmetrical versions on the bonnet, but none of them quite worked. Then he or I (I cannot recall who) suggested trying an asymmetrical flourish.
As someone who has spent a great deal of time over the years designing things, it is not clear to me that maintaining symmetry - on an essentially symmetrical object - must be an inviolable rule.
The rear of the F1 has an "F1 McLaren" logo on the right side? To look correct, should it have that same logo on the left side as well? Should the left logo be reversed in mirror image?
If we consider this:
which is a stunning bit of car decoration, the most essential part is the pair of arrowhead shapes atop either side of the roundel. They create a strong tension that brings together the other pinstriped bits on the front.
As much as I like the look of Donohue's Lola, it is a fact that the overall effect has a somewhat static quality to it. This is probably emphasised by that nearly straight horizontal line running across the front edge of the bonnet.
Perhaps there was nothing that one could have done about that, much as how with the F1 and every other car the body forms are what they are; sometimes pinstriping just won't work.
In the case of my car, the forms are not agreeable to a lot of striping. The side strakes are not really pinstriping at all.
I did however hope to have some striping somewhere on it, and the bonnet seemed the only place. So, was one necessarily limited to symmetrical shapes, which could have a tendency to look static and uninspired? I thought asymmetry was worth a try. It had to be a good design, however, and I agree that the result is not good enough.
(There may be some symmetrical designs that would have been good enough, such as the black-on-white example that I showed a few posts back, but maybe it will turn that there isn't a good way to get pinstriping on the car.)
The other appeal of an asymmetrical image was that it was antithetical to the sterile, suffocating grey uniformity (no pun intended) that has seemed to characterise McLaren under the Reign of Ron. As much as one respects what he has achieved, in at least one respect he has carried his personal idiosyncrasies too far, and the organisation in my opinion is poorer for it.
I relished the thought that one day my car might be down there at the factory, Ron would chance upon it, see the squiggle, and be appalled.
flemke said:
I don't really know anything technical about cars. What happened was that I thought that in two important areas, braking and handling, the car ought to be improved. I asked McLaren if they would help me in addressing those issues, and in effect they would/could not do so. That forced me to search for people who had the expertise to help me.
There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.
Interesting. This lack of experienced decision making, no offence meant but I'm sure you understand my reasoning, has it led you to make any decisions that you've come to later realise were not the best choice? Or encountered many snake oil salesmen?There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.
flemke said:
g3org3y said:
flemke said:
Something like this could be good on the F1:
Looks like the kind of thing girls in Essex have tattooed on their lower back. 
If there is a resemblance, are you sure that these sophisticated, sensitive ladies have not simply been inspired by examples of great pinstriping?
The F1 is a very simple, clean and elegant design, especially compared to its contemporaries. Too many additional styling elements will only make it look fussy.
The pin stripes could work but the squiggle will (imvho) look crap. You shouldn't add it for the sake of adding it.
But then again it's your car.
Edited by g3org3y on Monday 18th August 11:06
Soov535 said:
E65Ross said:
will_ said:
Soov535 said:
One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.
Given the relatively poor performance of the 250 GTO last night you could rightly be wondering if the correction has just happened.The F1 may show a similar picture at Gooding & Co over the weekend.
All of these figures of $70, $80, $90M+ were just idle press speculation.
I heard rumours that the F1 was only just under an acceptable price and $11m would have secured it so suspect there may be a deal done shortly.
gwm said:
flemke said:
I don't really know anything technical about cars. What happened was that I thought that in two important areas, braking and handling, the car ought to be improved. I asked McLaren if they would help me in addressing those issues, and in effect they would/could not do so. That forced me to search for people who had the expertise to help me.
There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.
Interesting. This lack of experienced decision making, no offence meant but I'm sure you understand my reasoning, has it led you to make any decisions that you've come to later realise were not the best choice? Or encountered many snake oil salesmen?There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.
I forget why, it may have been when I got the new wheels made, but I subsequently wanted to try to roll back the caster to something more moderate. We did that, in stages, and I ended up settling on a caster angle almost identical to the original, non-adjustable angle.
There may have been other decisions that did not work out, but they don't come to mind atm.
g3org3y said:
flemke said:
g3org3y said:
flemke said:
Something like this could be good on the F1:
Looks like the kind of thing girls in Essex have tattooed on their lower back. If there is a resemblance, are you sure that these sophisticated, sensitive ladies have not simply been inspired by examples of great pinstriping?
The F1 is a very simple, clean and elegant design, especially compared to its contemporaries. Too many additional styling elements will only make it look fussy.
The pin stripes could work but the squiggle will (imvho) look crap. You shouldn't add it for the sake of adding it.
But then again it's your car.
Davey S2 said:
Soov535 said:
E65Ross said:
will_ said:
Soov535 said:
One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.
Given the relatively poor performance of the 250 GTO last night you could rightly be wondering if the correction has just happened.The F1 may show a similar picture at Gooding & Co over the weekend.
All of these figures of $70, $80, $90M+ were just idle press speculation.
I heard rumours that the F1 was only just under an acceptable price and $11m would have secured it so suspect there may be a deal done shortly.
The fees charged are extortionate. The concept that the auction house - which is the agent of the seller, and which endeavours to achieve the highest possible price for the seller - should charge a huge fee as well to the buyer is almost absurd.
The concept that the auction house should get a fixed % fee, regardless of whether the item cost £1,000 or £10,000,000, is also impossible to justify. Nonetheless it happens, or at least it is how it happens at present. Let us hope that the auction business rationalises before long. I appreciate that buying a car on eBay is not quite the same thing as buying a book; nonetheless there is considerable room for improvement beyond this Pebble Beach/Amelia Island foolishness.
I can pretty much guarantee that the vendor - had he or she sold the car discreetly and privately, rather than attempting to sell it in a Pebble Beach circus - could have achieved the target price.
flemke said:
Symmetry was the question.
I found this 
I think if this was flipped 180 degrees and tied in with line work to the edges of the panel
A bit like this
It would be way cooler. It's also a little aggressive for the cars shape I think - might suit a hot rod but not the F1, something in a similar style, but simpler and less sharp would be perfect (in my opinion)
I dabble in a bit of pinstriping and helmet painting so my opinions are generally formed around what I can do (badly) so they might be a little skewed and not necessarily what the rest of the world think!
Also, I don't think about these things in the depth that you so, I just like what I like.
flemke said:
In terms of the mechanical, technical stuff, the only false start that I can recall was when a seriously smart, experienced chap advised that we needed a lot more caster on the car. We added a lot (this was after I had had new, adjustable wishbones made). This made the handling much more stable, although the cost was really heavy steering: so heavy that I had a larger diameter steering wheel made up.
I forget why, it may have been when I got the new wheels made, but I subsequently wanted to try to roll back the caster to something more moderate. We did that, in stages, and I ended up settling on a caster angle almost identical to the original, non-adjustable angle.
There may have been other decisions that did not work out, but they don't come to mind atm.
Live and learn, interesting. I forget why, it may have been when I got the new wheels made, but I subsequently wanted to try to roll back the caster to something more moderate. We did that, in stages, and I ended up settling on a caster angle almost identical to the original, non-adjustable angle.
There may have been other decisions that did not work out, but they don't come to mind atm.
flemke said:
For the life of me I cannot comprehend why anyone would sell, or buy, an expensive car at auction.
The fees charged are extortionate. The concept that the auction house - which is the agent of the seller, and which endeavours to achieve the highest possible price for the seller - should charge a huge fee as well to the buyer is almost absurd.
The concept that the auction house should get a fixed % fee, regardless of whether the item cost £1,000 or £10,000,000, is also impossible to justify. Nonetheless it happens, or at least it is how it happens at present. Let us hope that the auction business rationalises before long. I appreciate that buying a car on eBay is not quite the same thing as buying a book; nonetheless there is considerable room for improvement beyond this Pebble Beach/Amelia Island foolishness.
I can pretty much guarantee that the vendor - had he or she sold the car discreetly and privately, rather than attempting to sell it in a Pebble Beach circus - could have achieved the target price.
It is not always fixed as such - at many auction houses it will be staggered, for example 20% of 0-$XXXXX, and then 10% of $XXXXX and -$XXXXXXThe fees charged are extortionate. The concept that the auction house - which is the agent of the seller, and which endeavours to achieve the highest possible price for the seller - should charge a huge fee as well to the buyer is almost absurd.
The concept that the auction house should get a fixed % fee, regardless of whether the item cost £1,000 or £10,000,000, is also impossible to justify. Nonetheless it happens, or at least it is how it happens at present. Let us hope that the auction business rationalises before long. I appreciate that buying a car on eBay is not quite the same thing as buying a book; nonetheless there is considerable room for improvement beyond this Pebble Beach/Amelia Island foolishness.
I can pretty much guarantee that the vendor - had he or she sold the car discreetly and privately, rather than attempting to sell it in a Pebble Beach circus - could have achieved the target price.
Auction houses will fight to get lots like this for sale as well, and will often reduce significantly or waive sellers fees to do so. The buyers get screwed on the buyers premium (+VAT/tax) still, so they still make their money, just not at both ends, although for regular buyers/special clients there can be reduced buyers premiums too.
I myself have negotiated sellers fees down from near 20% to near 5% without much effort, and that was on something in the five figure range at a high end auction house, so nowhere near this level. They wanted the lot, so were happy to do so.
I agree though that the fees are rather high, and it strikes me as somewhat greedy to expect to get paid at both ends. I would certainly exhaust all other possible avenues before considering selling anything at auction again, let alone something at this level.
Edited by GCH on Monday 18th August 14:24
AlmostUseful said:
flemke said:
Symmetry was the question.
I found this I think if this was flipped 180 degrees and tied in with line work to the edges of the panel
A bit like this
It would be way cooler. It's also a little aggressive for the cars shape I think - might suit a hot rod but not the F1, something in a similar style, but simpler and less sharp would be perfect (in my opinion)
I dabble in a bit of pinstriping and helmet painting so my opinions are generally formed around what I can do (badly) so they might be a little skewed and not necessarily what the rest of the world think!
Also, I don't think about these things in the depth that you so, I just like what I like.
flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
Soov535 said:
E65Ross said:
will_ said:
Soov535 said:
One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.
Given the relatively poor performance of the 250 GTO last night you could rightly be wondering if the correction has just happened.The F1 may show a similar picture at Gooding & Co over the weekend.
All of these figures of $70, $80, $90M+ were just idle press speculation.
I heard rumours that the F1 was only just under an acceptable price and $11m would have secured it so suspect there may be a deal done shortly.
The fees charged are extortionate. The concept that the auction house - which is the agent of the seller, and which endeavours to achieve the highest possible price for the seller - should charge a huge fee as well to the buyer is almost absurd.
The concept that the auction house should get a fixed % fee, regardless of whether the item cost £1,000 or £10,000,000, is also impossible to justify. Nonetheless it happens, or at least it is how it happens at present. Let us hope that the auction business rationalises before long. I appreciate that buying a car on eBay is not quite the same thing as buying a book; nonetheless there is considerable room for improvement beyond this Pebble Beach/Amelia Island foolishness.
I can pretty much guarantee that the vendor - had he or she sold the car discreetly and privately, rather than attempting to sell it in a Pebble Beach circus - could have achieved the target price.
Surely if you are seriously in the market for an F1 you would speak to the factory who could then speak to any owner they knew were potentially interested in selling and its then up to the parties to agree a sale in the normal way. I expect Maranello may do the same.
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