Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[SydneyBridge]

I am looking to forward to seeing whatever you bring this year, I missed the F1 last year as I was only there on the Monday, think you were only running the SLS black that day (I think that was yours!!!)

Is the P1 bigger than the F1? I assume the F1 is wider?

[mastodon]

Hi Flemke,

I was wondering what your views are regarding the Lamborghini Sesto Elemento. Sub 1000kg, NA V10. I can imagine you're no fan of the body styling or AWD, but let's pretend the car didn't look like a hot-wheels, would it be a candidate for your stable?
Thanks, and I just wanted to let you know I've very much enjoyed reading your threads!

[flemke]

Joe911 said:

flemke said:

This year it will be the little brother.

Errr ... big brother.

Fat, geeky young brother.

[flemke]

SydneyBridge said:

I am looking to forward to seeing whatever you bring this year, I missed the F1 last year as I was only there on the Monday, think you were only running the SLS black that day (I think that was yours!!!)

Is the P1 bigger than the F1? I assume the F1 is wider?

P1 is roughly 125mm wider.

[Chunkymonkey71]

Flemke,

What is the cheapest, sttiest car you have ever owned?

What is your favourite 'normal' car?

[flemke]

mastodon said:

Hi Flemke,

I was wondering what your views are regarding the Lamborghini Sesto Elemento. Sub 1000kg, NA V10. I can imagine you're no fan of the body styling or AWD, but let's pretend the car didn't look like a hot-wheels, would it be a candidate for your stable?
Thanks, and I just wanted to let you know I've very much enjoyed reading your threads!

The question seems to be, "If there were a car with some good stuff and some bad stuff, but they took away all the bad stuff, would that make it good?"

Yes, I would like a car with a NA V10, RWD, weighing 1,000kg. Sounds like a stripped-out Carrera GT.

[flemke]

Chunkymonkey71 said:

Flemke,

What is the cheapest, sttiest car you have ever owned?

What is your favourite 'normal' car?

Cheapest - A2. Although the cheapest, it is far from the worst, however, as it does a brilliant job.

Worst - ??? I had a GT3 which had been fettled by someone who fettled quite a few other Porsches for me. On all the other cars (including GT3s) he did a fine job, but the handling of this one car was utterly diabolical. Luckily someone wanted to buy it from me.

[robm3]

You know, I quite enjoy this thread.

I did think it's because Flemke's work on the F1 reminded me how I used to modify my cars back in my youth. But then I thought no, it's actually more artistic and enhancing than anything I did, so probably more akin to the coachbuilding days of motoring. 1920's-1960's

Back then people would hang to cars much longer and modify them to suit their lifestyle and desires, entire bodyworks, engines, interiors etc..

I guess today we are all lured by the 'next best thing' offered by manufacturers so chop and change, discard and dispose, far more frequently.

Makes me kinda sad I sold my M3 CSL really, that was a 'keeper' too. Hey ho.

Oh, I do also appreciate Flemke's attention to detail and viewpoint on (most) things.

Anyhow, long live this thread....

[hurstg01]

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

This year it will be the little brother.

[Chunkymonkey71]

flemke said:

Chunkymonkey71 said:

Flemke,

What is the cheapest, sttiest car you have ever owned?

What is your favourite 'normal' car?

Cheapest - A2. Although the cheapest, it is far from the worst, however, as it does a brilliant job.

Worst - ??? I had a GT3 which had been fettled by someone who fettled quite a few other Porsches for me. On all the other cars (including GT3s) he did a fine job, but the handling of this one car was utterly diabolical. Luckily someone wanted to buy it from me.

You should try the mighty Ignis Sport!

It may make your head explode though...

[Church of Noise]

Looking for a track toy Flemke?
http://thesupercarkids.com/rare-mclaren-f1-gtr-lon...
(toy might not be the right word here)

[flemke]

Church of Noise said:

Looking for a track toy Flemke?
http://thesupercarkids.com/rare-mclaren-f1-gtr-lon...
(toy might not be the right word here)

"Fraid not. I have never liked the look of the GTR long-tails, and I cannot see having any F1 for a track-day car, when you can have more fun for a lot less money and hassle.

[ecsrobin]

Chunkymonkey71 said:

You should try the mighty Ignis Sport!

It may make your head explode though...

Maybe swap cars for a day so Flemke can be blown away by the Ignis and you can still do your shopping in the F1?

I can't remember if it has already been mentioned but I noticed that Lanzante will be able to convert the P1 GTR to a road legal vehicle. http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-le... I wonder if many GTR owners will sell their P1 and go for a conversion?

[flemke]

ecsrobin said:

I can't remember if it has already been mentioned but I noticed that Lanzante will be able to convert the P1 GTR to a road legal vehicle. http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-le... I wonder if many GTR owners will sell their P1 and go for a conversion?

It has never been clear to me what the point of that conversion would be.

[E65Ross]

flemke said:

It has never been clear to me what the point of that conversion would be.

The same as converting an F1 GTR, no? I could understand it more for those able to get a GTR and not a P1 though.

[flemke]

E65Ross said:

flemke said:

It has never been clear to me what the point of that conversion would be.

The same as converting an F1 GTR, no? I could understand it more for those able to get a GTR and not a P1 though.

I think it's different from the F1 road car/GTR situation.

First, many if not all of the F1 GTR conversions were done by guys who did not have F1 road cars. The road cars have gone through periods when none was for sale, so if you wanted an F1 to drive on the road you had to buy a GTR and convert it.

Next, one might have wanted an F1 road car that looked like a racing car, which would lead one to take a GTR and run it with its genuine historic livery. That would be a lot better than slapping a livery on a road car in order to pretend it had raced.

Also, there were some people who wanted a GTR in order to make it look like an LM, which have almost always been impossible to buy, and that was the motivation for their conversions of GTRs that included the "Papaya" paint.

Furthermore, for most of their life the F1 GTRs have cost buyers a meaningful amount less than the road cars did; buying a GTR was a less expensive way to become an F1 owner.
I appreciate that in the last couple of years there has been a movement to talk up the values of GTRs, a movement which I am told has been promulgated by a car dealer who by coincidence happens to own a GTR (surprise!), on the questionable logic that the GTRs have racing provenance. I agree that they have racing history (as in, most of them have been thrashed and crashed), but - apart from the Le Mans winner which has a very special history - how many people care that a car may have won a round of the BPR Series? Is that bit of historical trivia in itself worth millions of dollars? It wouldn't be to me!

The next thing to consider is that the F1 GTRs (apart from long-tails) were designed as road cars and themselves "converted" into racing cars in the first place. Crucially, the chassis pick-up points, which one could not alter, were the correct height for a road car, not for a racing car. By converting a GTR to a road car, one was, so to speak, correcting a fundamental shortcoming in the GTRs.

I am not saying that the F1 GTR made a good road car. They are fantastic to drive, but the unbearable noise, absence of a/c, inappropriate instrumentation, and compromised steering lock mean that, much more than the F1 road car, the converted GTR is good for only brief blasts on carefully selected roads.

Although the F1 GTR is not a "good" road car, one can see the logic in converting one into a road car.

The P1 GTR is quite different.

First, there are already "enough" P1 road cars available. Indeed, if you bought a P1 GTR you already owned a P1 road car. The motive for converting a P1 GTR to road car could not have been because that was your only route to obtaining a P1 for the road.

Second, in contrast to the F1 GTR, the P1 GTR has been optimised for the track. Ride height and suspension geometry, for example, are too low (both practically and legally) for public road use. By doing the conversion, one would be making the car less good, as opposed to improving it by taking it back to where it was designed to be.

Third, when you pay your £2m for the P1 GTR, you are not getting twice as much car for your money. A lot of that extra cost (over the road car) is going to the track day programme, receiving bespoke instruction from McLaren, spending time in the factory simulator, etc.
By doing a road car conversion, you are making the car less suited to the end for which you have just paid the £1m premium.

Fourth, I would ask, "What exactly about the P1 road car would one make better for road use?" The only thing that I would like to see is for them to have got rid of the electric stuff, but that - the primary opportunity for weight savings - is still present in the GTR. Yes, the P1 GTR weighs a bit less, but that is largely owing to lack of a/c, lack of information/sound system - stuff that most people actually want in a road car.

The P1 GTR has no racing "provenance" of any kind, of course, and one expects that it never will.

Is the point of converting a P1 GTR for road use to make it faster on the road? That would make no sense whatsoever. One is literally unable to utilise even half of the P1 road car's capability on the road, so why would you possibly want more?

Is it to make the P1 more of a "driver's car"? One might aspire to that, but Chris Goodwin and the team made a huge effort to produce a great driver's car in the road car. I believe that the major feedback systems in the road car are the same in the GTR; it is not clear what is to be gained in terms of driver enjoyment by taking a GTR and converting it.

That leaves me with what I think is the primary motivation one might have for converting a P1 GTR for road use: appearance.

Yes, the GTR, as designed, looks better than the road car does. That GTR rear wing is great. (I am assuming that in its standard form that wing will pass SVA, although I am aware of no other road-legal car with rear wing endplates that stick out so far.) Although I own some cars with rear wings, I always feel a bit embarrassed when I drive them, as fixed wings sprouting up from the rear deck of a road car always seem so pretentious. This is one of the reasons why I never went for the HDK on my F1, although it a pure design sense I accept that it looks pretty good.

How the GTR will look after conversion, with a higher ride height and bigger gaps between the tyres and the wheel arches, will be another matter. There is no way that lifting the P1 GTR, which must be done for road use, will not detract from the GTR's mean, purposeful look.

The P1 and P1 GTR were essentially parallel projects: one for the road, as best as McLaren could do it, and one for the track. To take McLaren's best effort for the track and attempt to transmogrify it into something better than the factory's best effort for the road seems a bit of a fool's errand. By doing that conversion, in a single stroke one would be spending a lot of money to create a less-good road car and a less-good track car.

[Jek Porkins]

Flemke (or anyone else)
Do you happen to know where I could find a timetable of events for the Bournemouth wheels festival? Their site has no timings at all, and I'd like to know what time the supercar and F1 demo runs are. Cheers.

[flemke]

Jek Porkins said:

Flemke (or anyone else)
Do you happen to know where I could find a timetable of events for the Bournemouth wheels festival? Their site has no timings at all, and I'd like to know what time the supercar and F1 demo runs are. Cheers.

Friday:

11:10 - Supercar parade
11:40 - Supercar 6 runs
12:05 - Le Mans car runs
12:30 - Touring car runs
13:00 - Historic F1 car runs
13:30 - Rally car runs
13:55 - Motorbikes
14:20 - Supercar parade
14:50 - Supercar 6 runs
15:15 - Le Mans car runs
15:40 - Touring car runs
16:10 - Historic F1 car runs
17:05 - Rally car runs
17:30 - Motorbikes

Apologies, but I don't have the strength to give the times for the other days, which are slightly different. The above is the basic idea.

[Jek Porkins]

Fantastic, thanks

[SydneyBridge]

sat -

09:00 Motor Show in Motion test drives
11:10 Supercar parade
12:05 Le Mans cars
12:30 Touring cars
13:00 Historic F1 cars
13:30 Rally cars
13:55 Arena eventsEast - Lawnmowers. Central - Precision driving. West - Karting
14:25 Motorcycles
14:45 Supercar parade
15:40 Le Mans cars
16:30 Arena events East - Lawnmowers. Central - Precision driving. West - Karting
17:05 Historic F1 car
17:35 Rally cars
18:00 Motorcycles
18:302 Wheel Precision Driving stunt attempt
18:50 Course closes

sun -

09.00 Motor Show in Motion test drives
10:10 Supercar parade
11:05 Le Mans cars
11:30 Touring cars
12:00 Historic F1 cars
12:30 Rally cars
12:55 Motorcycles
13:45 Supercar parade
14:10 Arena events East - Lawnmowers. Central - Precision drivin. West - Karting
14:45 Le Mans Cars
15:40 Touring cars
16:05 Historic F1 cars
16:35 Arena events East - Lawnmowers. Central - Precision drivin. West - Karting
17:10 Rally cars
17:35 Motorcycles
17:55 Course closes


Flemke - are you there in the P1 every day?