Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
...I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation...
SpeckledJim said:
With regard to mileage depreciation, Nick Mason famously campaigns his GTO with a substitute engine in case he pops the original; are replacement F1 engines available, and would buying one to protect the sacrosanct original be an option?
I think the problem here is that there were plenty of 'lesser' Ferraris that ran a variation of the 250 GTO V12 for GTO owners to borrow and adapt to preserve the original - No other car has a similar engine to the F1 at all Silver Smudger said:
flemke said:
...I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation...
SpeckledJim said:
With regard to mileage depreciation, Nick Mason famously campaigns his GTO with a substitute engine in case he pops the original; are replacement F1 engines available, and would buying one to protect the sacrosanct original be an option?
I think the problem here is that there were plenty of 'lesser' Ferraris that ran a variation of the 250 GTO V12 for GTO owners to borrow and adapt to preserve the original - No other car has a similar engine to the F1 at all Without knowing the details, I daresay that the original GTO engine was not exactly the most robust power plant ever made. Furthermore, the car would not have had a rev-limiter.
The F1 engine is quite robust (Paul Rosche told Gordon that the engine was good for "at least 250,000 km" before it would need a rebuild), and the car does have a rev-limiter.
(Nb: I should have written "$20k", not "£20k", although in any case the number is a crude estimate.)
flemke said:
Unfortunately, as the values of these things go up, the "cost" (impact on market value) of additional miles on a car can be dear. Even though mine is by F1 standards a higher-mileage car, I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation. I can hardly complain, because the overall effect has been very positive, but it does affect one's thinking.
Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to take the the total cost of ownership so far, deduct it from the the amount its appreciated and workout the cost/profit per mile! I am guessing you didn't buy it as an investment so why let the appreciation effect the pleasure of ownership.
Wacky Racer said:
Just wondered if there has ever been any time during your ownership of the car, that you have regretted buying it Flemke?
Also, just like to say I have followed these threads since day one, and they have always made fascinating reading, so many thanks for that....
Glad you have enjoyed it, WR. Also, just like to say I have followed these threads since day one, and they have always made fascinating reading, so many thanks for that....
I can honestly say that there was never a time when I regretted buying it, and that includes:
- the first year, when it was silver,
- the first few years, when market value was flat and irrelevant, and
- the first several years, when there were things about it that I really wanted to change but as regards what to do and how to do it I was pretty much on my own.
ex1 said:
flemke said:
Unfortunately, as the values of these things go up, the "cost" (impact on market value) of additional miles on a car can be dear. Even though mine is by F1 standards a higher-mileage car, I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation. I can hardly complain, because the overall effect has been very positive, but it does affect one's thinking.
Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to take the the total cost of ownership so far, deduct it from the the amount its appreciated and workout the cost/profit per mile! I am guessing you didn't buy it as an investment so why let the appreciation effect the pleasure of ownership.
Was it cumulatively worth "X" to me to have driven the car when and where I have done? Yes. If it were possible, would I do that total thing again? Absolutely.
But the richness of all those experiences was probably not pre-ordained. Maybe there was a lot of luck involved, and my next 35,000 miles would be relatively uneventful, or at least the highlights of the first 35k would be unrepeatable.
Another factor is that, if you drive something a lot, you tend to take it for granted regardless of how rarefied it may be. In the last few years owing to several factors I have driven my F1 only a little, a fraction as much as I drove it years ago. Yet at those times in recent years when I have driven the car, the occasion and experience felt more exhilarating than they did during my higher-mileage days.
If Christmas came once a week, how special would it feel?
flemke said:
ex1 said:
flemke said:
Unfortunately, as the values of these things go up, the "cost" (impact on market value) of additional miles on a car can be dear. Even though mine is by F1 standards a higher-mileage car, I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation. I can hardly complain, because the overall effect has been very positive, but it does affect one's thinking.
Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to take the the total cost of ownership so far, deduct it from the the amount its appreciated and workout the cost/profit per mile! I am guessing you didn't buy it as an investment so why let the appreciation effect the pleasure of ownership.
Was it cumulatively worth "X" to me to have driven the car when and where I have done? Yes. If it were possible, would I do that total thing again? Absolutely.
But the richness of all those experiences was probably not pre-ordained. Maybe there was a lot of luck involved, and my next 35,000 miles would be relatively uneventful, or at least the highlights of the first 35k would be unrepeatable.
Another factor is that, if you drive something a lot, you tend to take it for granted regardless of how rarefied it may be. In the last few years owing to several factors I have driven my F1 only a little, a fraction as much as I drove it years ago. Yet at those times in recent years when I have driven the car, the occasion and experience felt more exhilarating than they did during my higher-mileage days.
If Christmas came once a week, how special would it feel?
Nick's GTO won't loose value due to being driven, even if it suffers additional crash damage to that it has already suffered in the last 50 years. It has got to an age where the continued competition history will in fact improve its provenance and value.
flemke said:
That is funny. Right after I got the car someone asked me as a favour to drive the car down Sloane St (around the corner from Harrods) and put up the rear wing. There is a picture on the internet of that blush-making moment 
although, if it made him happy, then why not? ...
although, if it made him happy, then why not? ...
Midnight blue P1 by Stefan Drobota, on Flickr
P1. by Stefan Drobota, on FlickrMikeeb said:
I imagine all of the above played a part in Rowan Atkinson's decision to sell his. As you say, the car may have appreciated far more in value than you'll lose by continuing to drive it. But $20k is $20k, no matter how many $20k's you have!
Nick's GTO won't loose value due to being driven, even if it suffers additional crash damage to that it has already suffered in the last 50 years. It has got to an age where the continued competition history will in fact improve its provenance and value.
I'm not sure I buy the notion that driving an F1 reduces it's value. I don't think there are sufficient data points to clearly show a trend and I think the appreciation far outweighs the potential hit for driving the car.Nick's GTO won't loose value due to being driven, even if it suffers additional crash damage to that it has already suffered in the last 50 years. It has got to an age where the continued competition history will in fact improve its provenance and value.
Monty Python said:
250LM is rather purty...Have to assume the driving force behind the creation has passed on and it's their estate selling up? As said I struggle to understand building such a collection then cashing in - unless it's been an investment vehicle and the punter is getting out predicting a downturn in the market...
Mikeeb said:
flemke said:
ex1 said:
flemke said:
Unfortunately, as the values of these things go up, the "cost" (impact on market value) of additional miles on a car can be dear. Even though mine is by F1 standards a higher-mileage car, I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation. I can hardly complain, because the overall effect has been very positive, but it does affect one's thinking.
Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to take the the total cost of ownership so far, deduct it from the the amount its appreciated and workout the cost/profit per mile! I am guessing you didn't buy it as an investment so why let the appreciation effect the pleasure of ownership.
Was it cumulatively worth "X" to me to have driven the car when and where I have done? Yes. If it were possible, would I do that total thing again? Absolutely.
But the richness of all those experiences was probably not pre-ordained. Maybe there was a lot of luck involved, and my next 35,000 miles would be relatively uneventful, or at least the highlights of the first 35k would be unrepeatable.
Another factor is that, if you drive something a lot, you tend to take it for granted regardless of how rarefied it may be. In the last few years owing to several factors I have driven my F1 only a little, a fraction as much as I drove it years ago. Yet at those times in recent years when I have driven the car, the occasion and experience felt more exhilarating than they did during my higher-mileage days.
If Christmas came once a week, how special would it feel?
One thing I am more certain of is that if I were in the position where I was afraid of using an object for its intended purpose due to the effects of that simple use on its value then it would be time to think about selling up and using something less precious for that purpose.
Joe911 said:
I'm not sure I buy the notion that driving an F1 reduces it's value. I don't think there are sufficient data points to clearly show a trend and I think the appreciation far outweighs the potential hit for driving the car.
It's a shame if it's valid - if the car has become too valuable to use, then it's also become sort-of worthless. 
Edited by jamies30 on Monday 8th June 20:59
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Monty Python said:
I can't compute.A collection like that I assume has taken some considerable effort, and large cash, to build. And I would imagine 'means something' to someone.
To then hock them all in a one'er ? Why ?
With low interest rates and most other investments not performing too well, along with the fact that you are not taxed on the 'profit' when you sell your 'depreciating asset', all come together to over inflate the vintage/specialist car market.
It has gone too far when a keen owner like Flemke weighs up the cost of adding miles to a car he loves.
I may be selfish but I hope the bottom drops out of the classic/specialist car market soon (I don't think it will happen any time soon though, unfortunately!) so that those of us with (much) smaller bank balances, but a passion for the cars, are able to own something that has spent most of it's life sat in a storage facility.
Paul
It has gone too far when a keen owner like Flemke weighs up the cost of adding miles to a car he loves.
I may be selfish but I hope the bottom drops out of the classic/specialist car market soon (I don't think it will happen any time soon though, unfortunately!) so that those of us with (much) smaller bank balances, but a passion for the cars, are able to own something that has spent most of it's life sat in a storage facility.
Paul
Edited by Storer on Monday 8th June 22:46
Mikeeb said:
flemke said:
ex1 said:
flemke said:
Unfortunately, as the values of these things go up, the "cost" (impact on market value) of additional miles on a car can be dear. Even though mine is by F1 standards a higher-mileage car, I figure a round trip from UK to the Nordschleife will cost me north of £20k in depreciation. I can hardly complain, because the overall effect has been very positive, but it does affect one's thinking.
Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to take the the total cost of ownership so far, deduct it from the the amount its appreciated and workout the cost/profit per mile! I am guessing you didn't buy it as an investment so why let the appreciation effect the pleasure of ownership.
Was it cumulatively worth "X" to me to have driven the car when and where I have done? Yes. If it were possible, would I do that total thing again? Absolutely.
But the richness of all those experiences was probably not pre-ordained. Maybe there was a lot of luck involved, and my next 35,000 miles would be relatively uneventful, or at least the highlights of the first 35k would be unrepeatable.
Another factor is that, if you drive something a lot, you tend to take it for granted regardless of how rarefied it may be. In the last few years owing to several factors I have driven my F1 only a little, a fraction as much as I drove it years ago. Yet at those times in recent years when I have driven the car, the occasion and experience felt more exhilarating than they did during my higher-mileage days.
If Christmas came once a week, how special would it feel?
Nick's GTO won't loose value due to being driven, even if it suffers additional crash damage to that it has already suffered in the last 50 years. It has got to an age where the continued competition history will in fact improve its provenance and value.
Whether a car won a meaningful race 50 years ago will tend to add to value. To me, at least, whether a car won a recent pro-am demonstration event at the Goodwood Revival would not make much difference - especially as, in most if not all cases, the vintage racing cars that win modern events have been "restored" with modern parts that did not exist back in the day.
Edited by flemke on Monday 8th June 23:20
Rich_W said:
flemke said:
That is funny. Right after I got the car someone asked me as a favour to drive the car down Sloane St (around the corner from Harrods) and put up the rear wing. There is a picture on the internet of that blush-making moment although, if it made him happy, then why not? ...
although, if it made him happy, then why not? ...Midnight blue P1 by Stefan Drobota, on FlickrP1. by Stefan Drobota, on FlickrCheers.
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