Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

no GTR (apart of course from the Le Mans winner) has any meaningful racing provenance, that particular car has an even less significant provenance than some others do.

.

flemke said:

....he was recently able to shift his own GTR for $22.5m, or roughly £14m. No normal road car has gone for anything like that. I consider that price, in the context of other current values, to be pretty stupid, but it is what it is.

3rd at Le Mans is a pretty good notch on the rollbar to have, although there is another GTR with a better over all win / place record in other competitions / championships that was for sale for a while a year or so back that stayed with its owner (for now....)

I was thinking about that fact (3rd at Le Mans), and what I concluded was:

- There have been something like 83 editions of LM 24.
- Therefore there have been 166 cars that finished better than this car's 3rd and another 82 that finished equal to it.
- That is nearly 250 cars that ought to have the same or better racing provenance than this car does. That would comprise some very classy, possibly unique, machines which in some cases would have additional race results worth bragging about and which would have been driven by drivers who - with no disrespect to the Bells and Wallace - are even more venerated in racing history than they are.

If the LM 3rd place makes this car worth $22.5m, what would be the value of such winning cars as the GT40 of AJ Foyt and Dan Gurney, the Mirage of Bell and Ickx, the 962 of Bell, Stuck and Holbert, and the Matra of Hill and Pescarolo? If 3rd with less storied drivers will get you $22m, how big a price should one pay for a winning car with more storied drivers - $40m? $50m?

And even a 2nd place car should be worth more (in terms of provenance), I guess. How about the '95 Courage piloted by the good Eric Helary, the great Bob Wollek, and the "Ultimate Team" driver Mario Andretti - the car that ought to have won except that the idiot sponsors insisted on an extra pit stop near the end in order to wipe the grime off their logos? I would be shocked if that Courage - if it still existed and were for sale - were to cost more than $2-2.5m. Does it make sense that a car bearing the logo of Harrods - that epicentre of rip-off arrogance owned by an obnoxious asshole - should be worth 10 times as much as the car that finished ahead of it and was driven by one of the all-time, ultimate great racing drivers?

I know it's not as simple as that, but I do think the above may help to put in perspective how much monetary value ought to be attributed to a 3rd place at Le Mans.

Cheers.

[vincegail]

The wiping the grime of the logos story never ceases to amaze me. Hope the sponsors were happy with the result.

[80quattro]

flemke said:

djdest said:

Was lucky enough to see 16R at Supercar Sunday near Bedford this morning.
As I was looking around it I heard someone ask how much it was worth, he was told that the owner would start to consider offers over £20m!

One of the nicest liveries, although I'm not sure that the Italian flag goes well with it.

As for the owner's target price, I think he may have to wait a while.

Whilst not the owner, we got so bored of being asked its value throughout the day, we invented some for our own amusement. £20m was not the highest, and some suggestions were somewhat leftfield, post Peroni.

[Veeayt]

Flemke, thanks for feedback, as always. In the years reading this thread, I noticed that you do you don't have much, let's say, adulation for BMW making that engine. Maybe I'm mistaken. So with due respect, what you'd like to see in that engine bay ideally? Guess there were plenty of suitable engines of that era.

[E65Ross]

Veeayt said:

Flemke, thanks for feedback, as always. In the years reading this thread, I noticed that you do you don't have much, let's say, adulation for BMW making that engine. Maybe I'm mistaken. So with due respect, what you'd like to see in that engine bay ideally? Guess there were plenty of suitable engines of that era.

I was under the impression that he thought the engine was really rather good?

[hurstg01]

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

no GTR (apart of course from the Le Mans winner) has any meaningful racing provenance, that particular car has an even less significant provenance than some others do.

.

flemke said:

....he was recently able to shift his own GTR for $22.5m, or roughly £14m. No normal road car has gone for anything like that. I consider that price, in the context of other current values, to be pretty stupid, but it is what it is.

3rd at Le Mans is a pretty good notch on the rollbar to have, although there is another GTR with a better over all win / place record in other competitions / championships that was for sale for a while a year or so back that stayed with its owner (for now....)

I was thinking about that fact (3rd at Le Mans), and what I concluded was:

- There have been something like 83 editions of LM 24.
- Therefore there have been 166 cars that finished better than this car's 3rd and another 82 that finished equal to it.
- That is nearly 250 cars that ought to have the same or better racing provenance than this car does. That would comprise some very classy, possibly unique, machines which in some cases would have additional race results worth bragging about and which would have been driven by drivers who - with no disrespect to the Bells and Wallace - are even more venerated in racing history than they are.

If the LM 3rd place makes this car worth $22.5m, what would be the value of such winning cars as the GT40 of AJ Foyt and Dan Gurney, the Mirage of Bell and Ickx, the 962 of Bell, Stuck and Holbert, and the Matra of Hill and Pescarolo? If 3rd with less storied drivers will get you $22m, how big a price should one pay for a winning car with more storied drivers - $40m? $50m?

And even a 2nd place car should be worth more (in terms of provenance), I guess. How about the '95 Courage piloted by the good Eric Helary, the great Bob Wollek, and the "Ultimate Team" driver Mario Andretti - the car that ought to have won except that the idiot sponsors insisted on an extra pit stop near the end in order to wipe the grime off their logos? I would be shocked if that Courage - if it still existed and were for sale - were to cost more than $2-2.5m. Does it make sense that a car bearing the logo of Harrods - that epicentre of rip-off arrogance owned by an obnoxious asshole - should be worth 10 times as much as the car that finished ahead of it and was driven by one of the all-time, ultimate great racing drivers?

I know it's not as simple as that, but I do think the above may help to put in perspective how much monetary value ought to be attributed to a 3rd place at Le Mans.

Cheers.

All good points, as always

I do agree that there are other cars with better Le Mans results and 'better' drivers but aren't worth as much - some of those 248 that equal / better the Harrods finish could be / have been converted for the road, and maybe won in that marque's 1st entrance to Le Mans - you / others may have to educate me on those factoids - but that would take the 248 number into single digits, and low digits at that...

The Harrods car had some relatively good race results outside of the Le Mans 3rd, and yes the Harrods name adds some weight to it's price no matter if you like the brand and it's history or not. It's not the GTR with the most wins / points, and it's not the GTR with the best race win to it's name, but it's a well known GTR often seen at Goodwood and other motor shows so if someone wants to pay the £14m or so for such a car, lets hope it's not at the top of the wave regarding prices.

[flemke]

vincegail said:

The wiping the grime of the logos story never ceases to amaze me. Hope the sponsors were happy with the result.

I don't think Mario was exactly happy with it. He never won Le Mans - that 2nd was as close as he got.

If he had won at LM, he would be the only driver to have won Indy 500, F1 WDC, Daytona 500 and Le Mans 24.

[flemke]

Veeayt said:

Flemke, thanks for feedback, as always. In the years reading this thread, I noticed that you do you don't have much, let's say, adulation for BMW making that engine. Maybe I'm mistaken. So with due respect, what you'd like to see in that engine bay ideally? Guess there were plenty of suitable engines of that era.

I should write more clearly. The BMW V12 in F1 is one of the all-time greatest road car engines, quite possibly the absolute greatest. That engine is one of the 2 best things about the car, along with the central driving position.

[flemke]

hurstg01 said:

All good points, as always

I do agree that there are other cars with better Le Mans results and 'better' drivers but aren't worth as much - some of those 248 that equal / better the Harrods finish could be / have been converted for the road, and maybe won in that marque's 1st entrance to Le Mans - you / others may have to educate me on those factoids - but that would take the 248 number into single digits, and low digits at that...

The Harrods car had some relatively good race results outside of the Le Mans 3rd, and yes the Harrods name adds some weight to it's price no matter if you like the brand and it's history or not. It's not the GTR with the most wins / points, and it's not the GTR with the best race win to it's name, but it's a well known GTR often seen at Goodwood and other motor shows so if someone wants to pay the £14m or so for such a car, lets hope it's not at the top of the wave regarding prices.

I admit that my scepticism about that car derives in part from a couple of the persons who have been associated with it.

In any case, if the Harrods car is "worth" $22m, what does anyone think the Le Mans winner should be worth?

[hurstg01]

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

All good points, as always

I do agree that there are other cars with better Le Mans results and 'better' drivers but aren't worth as much - some of those 248 that equal / better the Harrods finish could be / have been converted for the road, and maybe won in that marque's 1st entrance to Le Mans - you / others may have to educate me on those factoids - but that would take the 248 number into single digits, and low digits at that...

The Harrods car had some relatively good race results outside of the Le Mans 3rd, and yes the Harrods name adds some weight to it's price no matter if you like the brand and it's history or not. It's not the GTR with the most wins / points, and it's not the GTR with the best race win to it's name, but it's a well known GTR often seen at Goodwood and other motor shows so if someone wants to pay the £14m or so for such a car, lets hope it's not at the top of the wave regarding prices.

I admit that my scepticism about that car derives in part from a couple of the persons who have been associated with it.

In any case, if the Harrods car is "worth" $22m, what does anyone think the Le Mans winner should be worth?

Is it Mclaren 'legend' that someone offered Big Ron something like £30m+ for #01R and he turned it down, even when the potential new owner promised to keep it shtum that it had changed hands and promised to keep it at the MTC / get another GTR and make an exact copy of it bar the original chassis plaque (that is currently hidden behind a fabricated add-on on the rhs chassis spar) for Mclaren to have?

What would you reckon it's worth?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

All good points, as always

I do agree that there are other cars with better Le Mans results and 'better' drivers but aren't worth as much - some of those 248 that equal / better the Harrods finish could be / have been converted for the road, and maybe won in that marque's 1st entrance to Le Mans - you / others may have to educate me on those factoids - but that would take the 248 number into single digits, and low digits at that...

The Harrods car had some relatively good race results outside of the Le Mans 3rd, and yes the Harrods name adds some weight to it's price no matter if you like the brand and it's history or not. It's not the GTR with the most wins / points, and it's not the GTR with the best race win to it's name, but it's a well known GTR often seen at Goodwood and other motor shows so if someone wants to pay the £14m or so for such a car, lets hope it's not at the top of the wave regarding prices.

I admit that my scepticism about that car derives in part from a couple of the persons who have been associated with it.

Well that just seems more than a little petty.

[Storer]

flemke said:

I should write more clearly. The BMW V12 in F1 is one of the all-time greatest road car engines, quite possibly the absolute greatest. That engine is one of the 2 best things about the car, along with the central driving position.

I understand your love for the engine. A wonderful piece of engineering with a great voice.

I am curious about your love for the central driving position. It is ideal for placing a race car on track but surely it makes normal road driving slightly more difficult, especially overtaking. It would be better than a R/h dive car in Europe but not a L/h drive?

I can understand the 'makes the driving experience special' but I doubt you feel the better balance on the road.


Paul

[flemke]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

All good points, as always

I do agree that there are other cars with better Le Mans results and 'better' drivers but aren't worth as much - some of those 248 that equal / better the Harrods finish could be / have been converted for the road, and maybe won in that marque's 1st entrance to Le Mans - you / others may have to educate me on those factoids - but that would take the 248 number into single digits, and low digits at that...

The Harrods car had some relatively good race results outside of the Le Mans 3rd, and yes the Harrods name adds some weight to it's price no matter if you like the brand and it's history or not. It's not the GTR with the most wins / points, and it's not the GTR with the best race win to it's name, but it's a well known GTR often seen at Goodwood and other motor shows so if someone wants to pay the £14m or so for such a car, lets hope it's not at the top of the wave regarding prices.

I admit that my scepticism about that car derives in part from a couple of the persons who have been associated with it.

Well that just seems more than a little petty.

I can't see why a car's desirability should be enhanced by the good parts of its provenance but not be affected by the unattractive parts.

[flemke]

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

hurstg01 said:

All good points, as always

I do agree that there are other cars with better Le Mans results and 'better' drivers but aren't worth as much - some of those 248 that equal / better the Harrods finish could be / have been converted for the road, and maybe won in that marque's 1st entrance to Le Mans - you / others may have to educate me on those factoids - but that would take the 248 number into single digits, and low digits at that...

The Harrods car had some relatively good race results outside of the Le Mans 3rd, and yes the Harrods name adds some weight to it's price no matter if you like the brand and it's history or not. It's not the GTR with the most wins / points, and it's not the GTR with the best race win to it's name, but it's a well known GTR often seen at Goodwood and other motor shows so if someone wants to pay the £14m or so for such a car, lets hope it's not at the top of the wave regarding prices.

I admit that my scepticism about that car derives in part from a couple of the persons who have been associated with it.

In any case, if the Harrods car is "worth" $22m, what does anyone think the Le Mans winner should be worth?

Is it Mclaren 'legend' that someone offered Big Ron something like £30m+ for #01R and he turned it down, even when the potential new owner promised to keep it shtum that it had changed hands and promised to keep it at the MTC / get another GTR and make an exact copy of it bar the original chassis plaque (that is currently hidden behind a fabricated add-on on the rhs chassis spar) for Mclaren to have?

What would you reckon it's worth?

I cannot recall whether I have heard that. A few years ago I was told that someone had bid "X", which IIRC was roughly 4x what a normal GTR would have been worth at the time. In absolute terms, "X" was a good bit less than what the Harrods car recently sold for.

It's hard to say what the LM winner would go for now. There is such a staggering amount of money floating around these days, and it takes only one person who is willing to pay "anything" to be the possessor of a coveted object.

It wasn't all that long ago that Ron was asking £1m for the Park Lane car, and it took about 18 months before someone popped up who was willing to pay the price.

[flemke]

Storer said:

flemke said:

I should write more clearly. The BMW V12 in F1 is one of the all-time greatest road car engines, quite possibly the absolute greatest. That engine is one of the 2 best things about the car, along with the central driving position.

I understand your love for the engine. A wonderful piece of engineering with a great voice.

I am curious about your love for the central driving position. It is ideal for placing a race car on track but surely it makes normal road driving slightly more difficult, especially overtaking. It would be better than a R/h dive car in Europe but not a L/h drive?

I can understand the 'makes the driving experience special' but I doubt you feel the better balance on the road.


Paul

If you're in RHD in UK, LHD in UK, RHD on Continent, or anything else, you are forced to make the mental adjustment to allow for the offset of your viewpoint to the central axis of the vehicle. It makes car placement more difficult.
With central driving position, all you need to do is to aim for the middle of the space ahead. It is completely intuitive.

RHD in the UK, the "correct" offset, is distinctly better when contemplating an overtake.
When looking for an overtake whilst driving a car without the correct offset, you just hang back an extra amount in order to get a good enough view. The F1 is so quick that leaving that extra gap makes almost no difference to the feasibility of an overtake.

[thegreenhell]

flemke said:

I cannot recall whether I have heard that. A few years ago I was told that someone had bid "X", which IIRC was roughly 4x what a normal GTR would have been worth at the time. In absolute terms, "X" was a good bit less than what the Harrods car recently sold for.

It's hard to say what the LM winner would go for now. There is such a staggering amount of money floating around these days, and it takes only one person who is willing to pay "anything" to be the possessor of a coveted object.

It wasn't all that long ago that Ron was asking £1m for the Park Lane car, and it took about 18 months before someone popped up who was willing to pay the price.

I wonder if there will come a point with the race team's troubles where Ron would accept an offer of £30/40/50m for the car? It's recently come to light that they'll lose two of their team sponsors at the end of the year, they still have no title sponsor, they'll be getting much less prize money due to their recent poor championship performances, and they have one of the most expensive driver payrolls to cover. Will there come a time where they need to start selling the family silver? Although even £50m wouldn't keep the race team going for long.

[flemke]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

thegreenhell said:

I wonder if there will come a point with the race team's troubles where Ron would accept an offer of £30/40/50m for the car?

Ocean : drop

Not that bad. That would be equivalent to one year's title sponsor money, which at this point Ron might wish he had.

[Storer]

McLaren must be in a slightly better place now they are producing the road cars. As an F1 team with no other income they would be very vulnerable to the loss of sponsorship.
I imagine there is a good deal of "cross over" between the two companies and many of the F1 team's facilities can be used for the road car development, and therefore spread costs.

However, I suspect this could only be a short term expedient and major sponsorship will be needed to go forward in the near future.

[RobinBanks]

flemke said:

RobinBanks said:

Did you end up buying Madonna's Range Rover?

I looked at a Range Rover that was previously owned by the Duke of Westminster, but it was in a bad way. I know!
That was a great anecdote.

No. It would have been fine for the purpose, but I did not want anything associated with her.

I'm not a big fan of Madonna's music, but if the car was right I doubt I would be botered.

You say that you were buying it for someone else - is that a way of saying that you wouldn't think of owning a Range Rover yourself?

[FeelingLucky]

Storer said:

McLaren must be in a slightly better place now they are producing the road cars. As an F1 team with no other income they would be very vulnerable to the loss of sponsorship.
I imagine there is a good deal of "cross over" between the two companies and many of the F1 team's facilities can be used for the road car development, and therefore spread costs.

However, I suspect this could only be a short term expedient and major sponsorship will be needed to go forward in the near future.

It was my understanding that they are in fact totally separate companies?
Aren't the cars manufactured by McLaren Automotive?