Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Monty Python said:
Wouldn't it have been the auction house that decided how the auction would be handled rather than Lauren himself? After all, the more the car sells for the more commission they'd make.
Pity I'll never be in the position to worry about such things :-(
If you read Flemke's post more carefully you will see it was a 'private auction' or sealed bid process with McLaren used to provide the contacts for other F1 owners.Pity I'll never be in the position to worry about such things :-(
I personally dislike the sealed bid process. If an owner is selling he obviously wants the best price possible (and preferably an enthusiast) so why not be honest, ask for bids, but let the prospective buyer know it will be a 'distance' auction.
Still not the nicest way to do things but at least bidders know where thy stand.
Auctioneers have a reputation to loose so far better to buy from them, even if you have to pay for that reputation.
SydneyBridge said:
flemke said:
I have owned the F1 15 times as long and have driven it 18 times as far. Perhaps inevitably, it has required more fettling during my ownership than the P1 has done.
I assume there is much less scope for fettling on the P1 than the F1, in terms of what can be done and what needs improving/fettling With the P1, not only is there nothing major that I would change (apart from the basic concept of it, which even I am not crazy enough to take on), but to take it on would be far more challenging a task than the equivalent on the F1.
Storer said:
Monty Python said:
Wouldn't it have been the auction house that decided how the auction would be handled rather than Lauren himself? After all, the more the car sells for the more commission they'd make.
Pity I'll never be in the position to worry about such things :-(
If you read Flemke's post more carefully you will see it was a 'private auction' or sealed bid process with McLaren used to provide the contacts for other F1 owners.Pity I'll never be in the position to worry about such things :-(
I personally dislike the sealed bid process. If an owner is selling he obviously wants the best price possible (and preferably an enthusiast) so why not be honest, ask for bids, but let the prospective buyer know it will be a 'distance' auction.
Still not the nicest way to do things but at least bidders know where thy stand.
Auctioneers have a reputation to loose so far better to buy from them, even if you have to pay for that reputation.
flemke said:
Storer said:
Monty Python said:
Wouldn't it have been the auction house that decided how the auction would be handled rather than Lauren himself? After all, the more the car sells for the more commission they'd make.
Pity I'll never be in the position to worry about such things :-(
If you read Flemke's post more carefully you will see it was a 'private auction' or sealed bid process with McLaren used to provide the contacts for other F1 owners.Pity I'll never be in the position to worry about such things :-(
I personally dislike the sealed bid process. If an owner is selling he obviously wants the best price possible (and preferably an enthusiast) so why not be honest, ask for bids, but let the prospective buyer know it will be a 'distance' auction.
Still not the nicest way to do things but at least bidders know where thy stand.
Auctioneers have a reputation to loose so far better to buy from them, even if you have to pay for that reputation.
Paul
Storer said:
One where all parties know that they are bidding against each other. The trouble with this type of 'auction' is that it is controlled by the seller and is open to dishonest seller abuse. Basically he can 'rig' the bidding to get the best price. Sometimes he can be caught out though (deservedly).
Paul
Right, but the weakness with that cheating strategy is that the seller might miss making a sale that he would have wanted to make, if his shill ends up being highest bidder. In that case, not only does the seller not make a sale, but he has to shell out 10-15% of the overvalued price in fees to the auction house. The strategy can work, but it is quite risky.Paul
The 3 primary forms of price discovery in one-off car sales - sealed bid, open auction, and private negotiation - all are "fair" in that each has advantages for the seller and advantages for the buyer.
The problem arises when you start with one form, in this case sealed bid, and in the middle of that process you switch to another, in this case negotiation. The seller was trying to capture the seller's advantage in sealed bid and also capture the seller's advantage in negotiation. This is a not uncommon ploy, usually pursued by scumbags.
flemke said:
The chap who bought the brown car told me that, during the sales process, he had been grossly misled by the McLaren salesman who flogged the car to him. When the truth came out, the buyer went to Ron to complain. Ron was appalled by the salesman's behaviour. He made things right with the buyer (took back the brown car and let him spec a new car at the same price) and, AIUI, sacked the salesman.
How exactly did the salesman mislead the buyer? Tell him the car wasn't actually that brown at all..?
chris333 said:
Flemke,
How exactly did the salesman mislead the buyer? Tell him the car wasn't actually that brown at all..?
How exactly did the salesman mislead the buyer? Tell him the car wasn't actually that brown at all..?
The chap who bought the brown car said:
He had a friend who already had an F1 in I think silver. Having driven the friend's car, he decided that he wanted to buy one of his own. Friend put him in touch with factory salesperson. This would have been in about '96.
When chap made contact, salesperson said to him, "I'm so sorry, but the entire production run is sold out. We have a waiting list. I do however have one thought. We have a car here that we made for someone, who saw it when it was finished and decided that he would rather have a different colour. The car has never been used. I think I could offer you that one for the same price as the RRP (around £620k) of the cars, which as I say are now sold out. It would be either that, or you'd have to go out into the marketplace and see if an existing owner would sell you his car, at whatever price."
Buying chap asked for details of the available car, was told it was brown, etc. He told salesperson that that would not have been his first choice, but it seemed like it was his only choice, and so if available at RRP he would take it. The chap signed a contract, etc.
Very shortly thereafter, I think before he had taken delivery of the brown car, the chap's friend for whatever reason decided that he wanted to sell his silver car, which he offered to his mate. This other car being a "better" colour, the chap preferred it to the brown one.
The chap then contacted the salesperson and told him, "Good news! My friend is going to sell his silver car to me, so I won't need the brown one. We'll cancel the contract, and you can now offer the brown car to someone else on your waiting list."
Deafening silence on the other end of the phone. Salesperson eventually said, "I don't know what to tell you. I have at least a dozen available build slots with no customers for them. If I had to buy back the brown car now, I think the best that I could pay you would be in the low £300s."
At that point the buyer was so irate that he made an appointment and went straight to Ron. Ron was astonished by what had happened (and also by another misrepresentation by the salesperson, which I shall not detail here).
On the spot Ron, whom the customer had never met before, made the offer to take back the brown car and give the chap his own build slot for no additional charge. Shortly thereafter, the salesperson was looking for new employment.
When chap made contact, salesperson said to him, "I'm so sorry, but the entire production run is sold out. We have a waiting list. I do however have one thought. We have a car here that we made for someone, who saw it when it was finished and decided that he would rather have a different colour. The car has never been used. I think I could offer you that one for the same price as the RRP (around £620k) of the cars, which as I say are now sold out. It would be either that, or you'd have to go out into the marketplace and see if an existing owner would sell you his car, at whatever price."
Buying chap asked for details of the available car, was told it was brown, etc. He told salesperson that that would not have been his first choice, but it seemed like it was his only choice, and so if available at RRP he would take it. The chap signed a contract, etc.
Very shortly thereafter, I think before he had taken delivery of the brown car, the chap's friend for whatever reason decided that he wanted to sell his silver car, which he offered to his mate. This other car being a "better" colour, the chap preferred it to the brown one.
The chap then contacted the salesperson and told him, "Good news! My friend is going to sell his silver car to me, so I won't need the brown one. We'll cancel the contract, and you can now offer the brown car to someone else on your waiting list."
Deafening silence on the other end of the phone. Salesperson eventually said, "I don't know what to tell you. I have at least a dozen available build slots with no customers for them. If I had to buy back the brown car now, I think the best that I could pay you would be in the low £300s."
At that point the buyer was so irate that he made an appointment and went straight to Ron. Ron was astonished by what had happened (and also by another misrepresentation by the salesperson, which I shall not detail here).
On the spot Ron, whom the customer had never met before, made the offer to take back the brown car and give the chap his own build slot for no additional charge. Shortly thereafter, the salesperson was looking for new employment.
Obi Wan said:
I don't get it, he had already signed the contract to buy the brown car didn't he? Or am I missing something?
Yes, he had signed it because he had been told that the production run was sold out and the brown car was the only one available.He had been lied to that his only option was to buy a car in a colour that he did not want.
Also, the lie that the production run was sold out with a waiting list of persons wanting to buy was incompatible with the new car losing 50% of its value in a matter of days.
Even if he had been told from the start that they had unfilled build slots - which actually is the case for almost all cars made by all manufacturers - the notion that the manufacturer would buy it back only at half-price is untenable. Can you imagine, say, Bugatti in 2008, with plenty of the 450 proposed Veyrons still unsold, offering a customer only 50% of what he had paid them a fortnight earlier?
flemke said:
Obi Wan said:
I don't get it, he had already signed the contract to buy the brown car didn't he? Or am I missing something?
Yes, he had signed it because he had been told that the production run was sold out and the brown car was the only one available.He had been lied to that his only option was to buy a car in a colour that he did not want.
Also, the lie that the production run was sold out with a waiting list of persons wanting to buy was incompatible with the new car losing 50% of its value in a matter of days.
Even if he had been told from the start that they had unfilled build slots - which actually is the case for almost all cars made by all manufacturers - the notion that the manufacturer would buy it back only at half-price is untenable. Can you imagine, say, Bugatti in 2008, with plenty of the 450 proposed Veyrons still unsold, offering a customer only 50% of what he had paid them a fortnight earlier?
Google Fraudulent Misrepresentation.
thegreenhell said:
Are there any pics of the brown F1? Is the car still brown or has a subsequent owner had it painted another colour?
If it's the one I'm thinking of (there are only two brown cars anyway) then it was last spotted in 2006 in Mexico wearing gold wheels.
Supposedly owned by a drug dealer that died and they lost the keys. I suspect that it won't be surfacing any time soon.
Seemingly at Earls Court Motorshow in 95 courtesy of this account on Flickr
here
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 30th September 19:50
Accelebrate said:
Any idea why the Mexico F1 is wearing the plate that #06R is registered under?
I think a "P" reg would be summer '96 - summer '97. #06R would have been built spring '95, and road car #039 would have been built summer '95.That is to say, it is not obvious why either car would be eligible for a "P" reg.
If you're wondering why a car living in Mexico could have a UK reg plate, I think the answer is that the owner was wealthy, this was Mexico, and those were the only two things that mattered.
Edited by flemke on Thursday 1st October 12:19
The car wearing the plate on the road in Mexico seemed less curious, because Mexico.
On the other picture of the car that's circulating the plate looks like it was made up in the factory:
It has the same border and logo as:
So maybe it legitimately wore that VRM in the UK until it was exported? Although the date mismatch and that plate ultimately ending up on another F1 seems odd. Unless for some reason it's a 'cherished' plate, or McLaren were reusing VRMs?
On the other picture of the car that's circulating the plate looks like it was made up in the factory:
It has the same border and logo as:
So maybe it legitimately wore that VRM in the UK until it was exported? Although the date mismatch and that plate ultimately ending up on another F1 seems odd. Unless for some reason it's a 'cherished' plate, or McLaren were reusing VRMs?
Accelebrate said:
So maybe it legitimately wore that VRM in the UK until it was exported? Although the date mismatch and that plate ultimately ending up on another F1 seems odd. Unless for some reason it's a 'cherished' plate, or McLaren were reusing VRMs?
I had thought that the age identifier ("P") was meant to show when the car was manufactured, but perhaps it shows when the car was first registered. In that case, although this car finished production at the factory in approx Aug '95, if it has a "P" it wouldn't have been registered for at least a year after that. That would fit with what else we know about the history.How the plate made its way from the brown car to the Harrods car, I have no idea, although the next time I'm talking w the factory I'll try to remember to ask. The owner until recently of the Harrods car had his fingers in quite a few F1 deals, so I suspect that is part of the explanation.
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