Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

Reg Local said:

flemke said:

I cannot PM you or anyone via PH because when my account was set up I asked Dave to block the private e-mil function. I'll find another means. What part of the country are you in?
I'll look for Youtube channel, thanks.

I'm in the North West Highlands of England - Lancashire.

If you get one of your friends who's a PH member to PM me with a postal address, I'll stick a copy in the mail for you.

I had a feeling that you were from up that way - a Rovers fan?

Thank you, but I would not dream of asking for a freebie of your book. I wanted to ask you about something else. I'll see if a friend can contact you via PH and we'll go from there. In the meantime, I shall look at your Youtube videos. (I see why you had to change from "RU" to "Reg"! )

[Reg Local]

flemke said:

I had a feeling that you were from up that way - a Rovers fan?

Thank you, but I would not dream of asking for a freebie of your book. I wanted to ask you about something else. I'll see if a friend can contact you via PH and we'll go from there. In the meantime, I shall look at your Youtube videos. (I see why you had to change from "RU" to "Reg"! )

Excellent guess! Although I'm geographically slightly closer to Wanderers than Rovers.

The easiest ways to get in touch are either to get someone to PM me via this site or send me a direct message via Twitter @RegLocal

[flemke]

Reg Local said:

flemke said:

I had a feeling that you were from up that way - a Rovers fan?

Thank you, but I would not dream of asking for a freebie of your book. I wanted to ask you about something else. I'll see if a friend can contact you via PH and we'll go from there. In the meantime, I shall look at your Youtube videos. (I see why you had to change from "RU" to "Reg"! )

Excellent guess! Although I'm geographically slightly closer to Wanderers than Rovers.

Some people are good at guessing football affiliations, some people are good at guessing what a car carrying a dog is likely to do. I'm good at neither.

[michael243]

I know you have a F1, P1 and 675 LT but have you owned/own the 12C/650S..?

[LarJammer]

Flemke, I have recently bought an NSX. If you have a mo i'd be interested to hear how your thoughts and experience of it differ to mine. Thread here - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[flemke]

michael243 said:

I know you have a F1, P1 and 675 LT but have you owned/own the 12C/650S..?

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

[flemke]

LarJammer said:

Flemke, I have recently bought an NSX. If you have a mo i'd be interested to hear how your thoughts and experience of it differ to mine. Thread here - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Have just read the thread to which you linked; I'll try to think about it and post something in detail.
Suffice to say that NSX is one of my all-time top 3 road cars.

[michael243]

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

[flemke]

michael243 said:

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

Let's see....P1 was late'13. If that had not come out, when 650S came out in '14, I might well have got one, although I think I would have pushed them harder to put 12C front bodywork on 650S.

[br d]

flemke said:

michael243 said:

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

Let's see....P1 was late'13. If that had not come out, when 650S came out in '14, I might well have got one, although I think I would have pushed them harder to put 12C front bodywork on 650S.

Heard that a lot, don't think you would have wangled it though. How about a more 12C'ish front on the P1?

[Storer]

br d said:

flemke said:

michael243 said:

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

Let's see....P1 was late'13. If that had not come out, when 650S came out in '14, I might well have got one, although I think I would have pushed them harder to put 12C front bodywork on 650S.

Heard that a lot, don't think you would have wangled it though. How about a more 12C'ish front on the P1?

I would think that McLaren were/are moving forward in aero performance with each new model, so fitting the front end from an older model may upset that.

Paul

[br d]

Storer said:

br d said:

flemke said:

michael243 said:

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

Let's see....P1 was late'13. If that had not come out, when 650S came out in '14, I might well have got one, although I think I would have pushed them harder to put 12C front bodywork on 650S.

Heard that a lot, don't think you would have wangled it though. How about a more 12C'ish front on the P1?

I would think that McLaren were/are moving forward in aero performance with each new model, so fitting the front end from an older model may upset that.

Paul

I was only half serious Paul, when the 650S first appeared loads of people were suggesting McLaren should bolt on the 12C front end to make a prettier car. It was never going to happen due to the trick (P1) suspension on the 650S (which apart from any handling advantages means you can squeeze 2 holdalls in when you go touring!).

[br d]

Actually, on that point, what is the boot space like on the P1 Flemke? I've never seen one with the lid open.
My 650S has loads of room compared to my previous F and L stuff, I assume the P1 must be roomy too because it has the computer controlled suspension, which takes up about as much space as a fag paper, apparently.

[flemke]

br d said:

flemke said:

michael243 said:

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

Let's see....P1 was late'13. If that had not come out, when 650S came out in '14, I might well have got one, although I think I would have pushed them harder to put 12C front bodywork on 650S.

Heard that a lot, don't think you would have wangled it though. How about a more 12C'ish front on the P1?

When I enquired, they told me that the problems were:
- 650S requires more cooling than 12C, which could not (at least not readily) be achieved with the 12C bodywork, and
- headlamps of the 12C use a different wiring loom from the one on the 650S, so this was not a bolt-on alteration.
How much work would be required to reconcile the above, I could not say. They seemed to think that the answer, which had been given to other owners before me, was "Too much, not worth it", but perhaps I should pursue further.

[flemke]

Storer said:

br d said:

flemke said:

michael243 said:

flemke said:

No. When 12C came out I was dealing with a lot of non-car stuff and had absolutely no time, although if I had had the time I would have got one. When 650S came out I already had P1 on order and the 650S would have been redundant.

Fair play, would you have gotten a 650S, if you didnt get a P1?

Let's see....P1 was late'13. If that had not come out, when 650S came out in '14, I might well have got one, although I think I would have pushed them harder to put 12C front bodywork on 650S.

Heard that a lot, don't think you would have wangled it though. How about a more 12C'ish front on the P1?

I would think that McLaren were/are moving forward in aero performance with each new model, so fitting the front end from an older model may upset that.

Paul

Possibly, although I am not sure how much that matters. If combining 12C front with 650S everything-else would create a destabilising imbalance, that obviously should be avoided.
If instead it would be a matter of losing say 20 kg of downforce without creating too much of an imbalance (or an imbalance that could not be remedied in some other way), to me that would be unimportant.
I really find it amusing how much people (not saying you, Paul) seem to obsess about the ultimate performance of their road cars on racing circuits. Tracking a road car is about improving one's driving skills and having fun, not about doing a lap 0.1 sec faster than the next guy.

[br d]

flemke said:

...but perhaps I should pursue further.

Nah, love the one you're with!

I'm not convinced of the argument anyway. The 12C is a very pretty car and I'll admit that it seems more coherent as an entity than the 650S but these things have a habit of transiency.
Look at a 288 GTO, an odder looking bdisation of form and effect you couldn't wish for but time has giving it a purity not many appreciated at it's birth.

I like the 650S (although I would say that!), I think it's shape will get better as time moves on.

Perhaps I'm not the best person to judge though, I think the Zonda is a terribly confused looking thing (especially that awful, kaleidoscope looking interior) and I've always thought the 911RS with it's orange wheels and Barry Boy stickers looks like it fell out of a Christmas cracker!

[flemke]

br d said:

Actually, on that point, what is the boot space like on the P1 Flemke? I've never seen one with the lid open.
My 650S has loads of room compared to my previous F and L stuff, I assume the P1 must be roomy too because it has the computer controlled suspension, which takes up about as much space as a fag paper, apparently.

The space is just big enough to hold the bespoke battery charger thingy, which is pretty heavy. I searched unsuccessfully on Google for an image of one, but I have just remembered that I have a spare downstairs, which I shall now go measure....

Okay, in its padded carrier bag, the charger thingy is 11" tall, 8" thick, and 20" long. It sits in the boot space laterally, so that the 20" is left-to-right and the 8" is front-to-rear. My recollection is that, with it sitting in the storage space under the bonnet, there is zero additional space front-to-rear (8"), there are a few inches extra space left-to-right (enough for two pairs of shoes, that sort of thing), and on the top I think you might be able to lay a jacket, something soft and fairly thin. That's really it.
I guess that the total under-bonnet space would be equivalent to one medium-sized soft bag, maybe two if you could squash them a bit.
Behind the seats there is a shelf which will accommodate a jacket or jumper in each corner, but nothing in the middle if you want to keep your rear vision clear.

I don't know anything about the comparable space in 12C or 650S, but in 675 the under-bonnet space goes down deeper. It is probably twice as large in total volume relative to P1's, and the space behind the seats also seems to be roughly twice as great. Two people could carry enough stuff in a 675 to do an overnight trip without a great deal of privation (even if one of them was a female ), whereas in the P1 although two people could do it they would def have to pack light.

[flemke]

br d said:

flemke said:

...but perhaps I should pursue further.

Nah, love the one you're with!

Crosby Stills and Nash, before the anti-social nutter joined them?

br d said:

I'm not convinced of the argument anyway. The 12C is a very pretty car and I'll admit that it seems more coherent as an entity than the 650S but these things have a habit of transiency.
Look at a 288 GTO, an odder looking bdisation of form and effect you couldn't wish for but time has giving it a purity not many appreciated at it's birth.

I like the 650S (although I would say that!), I think it's shape will get better as time moves on.

Perhaps I'm not the best person to judge though, I think the Zonda is a terribly confused looking thing (especially that awful, kaleidoscope looking interior) and I've always thought the 911RS with it's orange wheels and Barry Boy stickers looks like it fell out of a Christmas cracker!

I am afraid that I cannot agree that the 288 has improved with age. I appreciate that many folks disagree (or believe that it has always been beautiful), but they are wrong.
The 288 has a lovely profile, something at which Ferrari have often excelled, so fair enough. But the 288's door mirrors are these horrible mock-periscopes: they didn't have to be that way; just look at the elegant door mirrors on the 959 to see how, contemporaneously, it was possible to design a beautiful mirror shell.

Then there is the 288's front end/bumper area:



I have seen better looking snow plows:


I totally agree with you about the Zonda. I actually spent a considerable amount of time trying (for my own purposes, not commercially) to redesign the rear of the car, in the hope that I could clean up some of the visual harshness. As for the interior, maybe it's just me, but I kind of like instruments that I can read, you know? Italic writing on a speedometer or tach doesn't really cut it.
The exterior of the Huayra is another story, IMO - really nice overall design. Too bad they kept the interior from the Zonda! I don't want to knock Horacio and his team, however, as what they have done in 15 years, starting from almost nothing, has been really impressive. He had his own vision and he has stuck to it. Not my thing, but good on him.

[br d]

flemke said:

br d said:

...but perhaps I should pursue further.

Nah, love the one you're with!

flemke said:

Crosby Stills and Nash, before the anti-social nutter joined them?

Apparently a producer kept getting NY to re-take his vocal, after many tries the producer said "You're always a semitone flat" Neil said "Yeah man, that's my style".

br d said:

I'm not convinced of the argument anyway. The 12C is a very pretty car and I'll admit that it seems more coherent as an entity than the 650S but these things have a habit of transiency.
Look at a 288 GTO, an odder looking bdisation of form and effect you couldn't wish for but time has giving it a purity not many appreciated at it's birth.

I like the 650S (although I would say that!), I think it's shape will get better as time moves on.

Perhaps I'm not the best person to judge though, I think the Zonda is a terribly confused looking thing (especially that awful, kaleidoscope looking interior) and I've always thought the 911RS with it's orange wheels and Barry Boy stickers looks like it fell out of a Christmas cracker!

flemke said:

I am afraid that I cannot agree that the 288 has improved with age. I appreciate that many folks disagree (or believe that it has always been beautiful), but they are wrong.
The 288 has a lovely profile, something at which Ferrari have often excelled, so fair enough. But the 288's door mirrors are these horrible mock-periscopes: they didn't have to be that way; just look at the elegant door mirrors on the 959 to see how, contemporaneously, it was possible to design a beautiful mirror shell.

Then there is the 288's front end/bumper area:



I have seen better looking snow plows:

I agree the 288 is a bit of an oddity but to me it has something classic about it, maybe it needs another 20 years.
I know this might seem unpopular but as much as the LaFerrari is an absolutely staggering car it is just plain ugly to my eyes, all over the place, nothing seems to work. The 918 however is as smooth as silk, just drips of my vision.

Anyway, google images gives me this!

[url]

I do love the P1 though. It does have some slight disjointedness but I can forgive it for all the magic it carries.

flemke said:

I totally agree with you about the Zonda. I actually spent a considerable amount of time trying (for my own purposes, not commercially) to redesign the rear of the car, in the hope that I could clean up some of the visual harshness. As for the interior, maybe it's just me, but I kind of like instruments that I can read, you know? Italic writing on a speedometer or tach doesn't really cut it.
The exterior of the Huayra is another story, IMO - really nice overall design. Too bad they kept the interior from the Zonda! I don't want to knock Horacio and his team, however, as what they have done in 15 years, starting from almost nothing, has been really impressive. He had his own vision and he has stuck to it. Not my thing, but good on him.

I always feel slightly fraudulent criticising cars I don't own, maybe one needs first hand experience to "get them" but the Zonda always seemed disjointed to me. I agree the Huayra is a much better deal from a distance, haven't been close enough to comment on the inside though.

Different strokes and all that.

I knew I'd never pull all that quoting off!

Edited by br d on Sunday 22 November 20:42

Edited by br d on Sunday 22 November 20:43

Edited by br d on Sunday 22 November 20:45

Edited by br d on Sunday 22 November 20:45

[greygoose]

flemke said:

The space is just big enough to hold the bespoke battery charger thingy, which is pretty heavy. I searched unsuccessfully on Google for an image of one, but I have just remembered that I have a spare downstairs, which I shall now go measure....

Okay, in its padded carrier bag, the charger thingy is 11" tall, 8" thick, and 20" long. It sits in the boot space laterally, so that the 20" is left-to-right and the 8" is front-to-rear. My recollection is that, with it sitting in the storage space under the bonnet, there is zero additional space front-to-rear (8"), there are a few inches extra space left-to-right (enough for two pairs of shoes, that sort of thing), and on the top I think you might be able to lay a jacket, something soft and fairly thin. That's really it.
I guess that the total under-bonnet space would be equivalent to one medium-sized soft bag, maybe two if you could squash them a bit.
Behind the seats there is a shelf which will accommodate a jacket or jumper in each corner, but nothing in the middle if you want to keep your rear vision clear.

I don't know anything about the comparable space in 12C or 650S, but in 675 the under-bonnet space goes down deeper. It is probably twice as large in total volume relative to P1's, and the space behind the seats also seems to be roughly twice as great. Two people could carry enough stuff in a 675 to do an overnight trip without a great deal of privation (even if one of them was a female ), whereas in the P1 although two people could do it they would def have to pack light.

Do you have to carry the battery charger thing round with you all the time or could you just run it as a "normal car"?

(Sorry if this is obvious but I have no experience with such cars)