Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
BigBen said:
flemke said:
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
The P1 and LaF (not sure about Porsche) definitely do not have a 30% or any other floor. How do GM or Tesla manage that? There cannot be an infinitely-long-life battery.
The battery management software handles it; the 0% you see in the car on the indicated battery charge is calibrated and the battery isn't actually completely depleted. It's the sort of thing they'd mention in the tech briefing to journalists but probably not in handover to new owners.Obviously there is no such thing as a battery that will never run out of energy. Can I take it that the difference is that the batteries of which you speak can be recharged from flat? The problem with the P1's and LaF's battery packs, I was told by the factory, is that they cannot be recharged from totally flat and therefore, once completely flat, must be replaced as a whole.
Ben
Above I was talking about the problem that the P1's battery pack encounters when it is completely flat, as in, finito.
On the other hand, when the "Charge" gauge is at "0", all it means is that the hybrid supplement is not available.
CanAm said:
Just playing devil's advocate here as I know bugger all about the worlds of chemistry or electrickery. These batteries cannot be charged when they are completely flat - so how do they get charged when they are first manufactured?
I think that when they are made they are somewhat charged as the default build state. When they are allowed to discharge fully part of the cell degrades and can short across the terminals so it is stuffed.CanAm said:
At some stage in the manufacturing process there is no charge in the battery. If it can be charged at this stage, then why not later? Why can the cells not be protected against degradation?
Dredging up knowledge from a long time ago, but that's not quite true. A battery contains three 'components' - the anode (positive connection), cathode (negative connection) and electrolyte (fluid medium that joins the anode and cathode. These components are manufactured separately, and *just by putting them together*, the battery has charge...
In use, the cathode 'sheds' ions, which have a negative charge. These ions transfer electrical energy. A fully depleted battery effectively has 'burnt up' the solid element - it doesn't exist anymore. A partially depleted battery, when charged, 'grows' the cathode. If there isn't one there at all, then it can't be 'grown'.
Very simplified, and I'm sure in some details wrong, but it's how they work in my head!
Sway said:
CanAm said:
At some stage in the manufacturing process there is no charge in the battery. If it can be charged at this stage, then why not later? Why can the cells not be protected against degradation?
Dredging up knowledge from a long time ago, but that's not quite true. A battery contains three 'components' - the anode (positive connection), cathode (negative connection) and electrolyte (fluid medium that joins the anode and cathode. These components are manufactured separately, and *just by putting them together*, the battery has charge...
In use, the cathode 'sheds' ions, which have a negative charge. These ions transfer electrical energy. A fully depleted battery effectively has 'burnt up' the solid element - it doesn't exist anymore. A partially depleted battery, when charged, 'grows' the cathode. If there isn't one there at all, then it can't be 'grown'.
Very simplified, and I'm sure in some details wrong, but it's how they work in my head!
The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PjyJhe7Q1g
This explains some of the issue with them well
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech...
mikey k said:
Sway said:
CanAm said:
At some stage in the manufacturing process there is no charge in the battery. If it can be charged at this stage, then why not later? Why can the cells not be protected against degradation?
Dredging up knowledge from a long time ago, but that's not quite true. A battery contains three 'components' - the anode (positive connection), cathode (negative connection) and electrolyte (fluid medium that joins the anode and cathode. These components are manufactured separately, and *just by putting them together*, the battery has charge...
In use, the cathode 'sheds' ions, which have a negative charge. These ions transfer electrical energy. A fully depleted battery effectively has 'burnt up' the solid element - it doesn't exist anymore. A partially depleted battery, when charged, 'grows' the cathode. If there isn't one there at all, then it can't be 'grown'.
Very simplified, and I'm sure in some details wrong, but it's how they work in my head!
The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PjyJhe7Q1g
This explains some of the issue with them well
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech...
linked article said:
If you completely discharge a lithium-ion battery, it is ruined.
Sway said:
CanAm said:
At some stage in the manufacturing process there is no charge in the battery. If it can be charged at this stage, then why not later? Why can the cells not be protected against degradation?
Dredging up knowledge from a long time ago, but that's not quite true. A battery contains three 'components' - the anode (positive connection), cathode (negative connection) and electrolyte (fluid medium that joins the anode and cathode. These components are manufactured separately, and *just by putting them together*, the battery has charge...
In use, the cathode 'sheds' ions, which have a negative charge. These ions transfer electrical energy. A fully depleted battery effectively has 'burnt up' the solid element - it doesn't exist anymore. A partially depleted battery, when charged, 'grows' the cathode. If there isn't one there at all, then it can't be 'grown'.
Very simplified, and I'm sure in some details wrong, but it's how they work in my head!
ManFromDelmonte said:
mikey k said:
For a lead acid battery yes
The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
Whilst this is true it still demonstrates a similar paradox whereby a battery can be manufactured without ever being 'flat' but become useless after it has become 'flat'.The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
br d said:
ManFromDelmonte said:
mikey k said:
For a lead acid battery yes
The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
Whilst this is true it still demonstrates a similar paradox whereby a battery can be manufactured without ever being 'flat' but become useless after it has become 'flat'.The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
mikey k said:
br d said:
ManFromDelmonte said:
mikey k said:
For a lead acid battery yes
The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
Whilst this is true it still demonstrates a similar paradox whereby a battery can be manufactured without ever being 'flat' but become useless after it has become 'flat'.The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
br d said:
mikey k said:
br d said:
ManFromDelmonte said:
mikey k said:
For a lead acid battery yes
The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
Whilst this is true it still demonstrates a similar paradox whereby a battery can be manufactured without ever being 'flat' but become useless after it has become 'flat'.The McLaren batteries are Lithium Ion and operate differently
So how about rechargeable batteries which you have to charge up when you buy them? How do they fit into the scheme of things?
BTW a poster on here many years ago reckoned that a lead-acid battery apparently beyond redemption could accept a charge by wiring up a 'good' battery in parallel with it in the charging circuit.
BTW a poster on here many years ago reckoned that a lead-acid battery apparently beyond redemption could accept a charge by wiring up a 'good' battery in parallel with it in the charging circuit.
Flemke,
Having just finished reading a great article in this month's evo by Richard Meaden on a fully restored F40LM, I was wondering whether you've thought about doing sometime similar for your F1?
I remember that Meaden drove the car for a previous feature and I seem to recall that you've expressed some respect for him as a driver and journalist. I also recall that you had a bit of a falling out with evo over something else. Any chance of putting the past behind you and collaborating with them again?
It would be particularly interesting to see how much quicker the finished car is around the circuit that Meaden timed it around previously.
Having just finished reading a great article in this month's evo by Richard Meaden on a fully restored F40LM, I was wondering whether you've thought about doing sometime similar for your F1?
I remember that Meaden drove the car for a previous feature and I seem to recall that you've expressed some respect for him as a driver and journalist. I also recall that you had a bit of a falling out with evo over something else. Any chance of putting the past behind you and collaborating with them again?
It would be particularly interesting to see how much quicker the finished car is around the circuit that Meaden timed it around previously.
lauda said:
Flemke,
Having just finished reading a great article in this month's evo by Richard Meaden on a fully restored F40LM, I was wondering whether you've thought about doing sometime similar for your F1?
I remember that Meaden drove the car for a previous feature and I seem to recall that you've expressed some respect for him as a driver and journalist. I also recall that you had a bit of a falling out with evo over something else. Any chance of putting the past behind you and collaborating with them again?
It would be particularly interesting to see how much quicker the finished car is around the circuit that Meaden timed it around previously.
If this F40LM is the one on Ferrari Chat forum, the guy Traveller documented the full restoration on there. Well worth a read with good pics of the work that went into it. Some people take the body off, new discs and pads, bit of a steam clean, job done. This guy did more, used original drawings to reproduce parts and probably made a better car than Ferrari ever did. Having just finished reading a great article in this month's evo by Richard Meaden on a fully restored F40LM, I was wondering whether you've thought about doing sometime similar for your F1?
I remember that Meaden drove the car for a previous feature and I seem to recall that you've expressed some respect for him as a driver and journalist. I also recall that you had a bit of a falling out with evo over something else. Any chance of putting the past behind you and collaborating with them again?
It would be particularly interesting to see how much quicker the finished car is around the circuit that Meaden timed it around previously.
petop said:
If this F40LM is the one on Ferrari Chat forum, the guy Traveller documented the full restoration on there. Well worth a read with good pics of the work that went into it. Some people take the body off, new discs and pads, bit of a steam clean, job done. This guy did more, used original drawings to reproduce parts and probably made a better car than Ferrari ever did.
Yep, sounds like the same F40 - pretty much a nut and bolt restoration with full engine rebuild. Thanks for the heads up, I'll definitely take a look at the thread on Ferrari Chat. br d said:
ManFromDelmonte said:
mikey k said:
These blokes said,
Some technical stuff,Hope that's of help and furthers your edukshon.
lauda said:
Flemke,
Having just finished reading a great article in this month's evo by Richard Meaden on a fully restored F40LM, I was wondering whether you've thought about doing sometime similar for your F1?
I remember that Meaden drove the car for a previous feature and I seem to recall that you've expressed some respect for him as a driver and journalist. I also recall that you had a bit of a falling out with evo over something else. Any chance of putting the past behind you and collaborating with them again?
It would be particularly interesting to see how much quicker the finished car is around the circuit that Meaden timed it around previously.
I have not seen that article, perhaps the issue has not yet gone on sale.Having just finished reading a great article in this month's evo by Richard Meaden on a fully restored F40LM, I was wondering whether you've thought about doing sometime similar for your F1?
I remember that Meaden drove the car for a previous feature and I seem to recall that you've expressed some respect for him as a driver and journalist. I also recall that you had a bit of a falling out with evo over something else. Any chance of putting the past behind you and collaborating with them again?
It would be particularly interesting to see how much quicker the finished car is around the circuit that Meaden timed it around previously.
Yes, I have a lot for time for Richard. Yes, the magazine (not he) did something rather thoughtless that bothered me, but that was about 5 years ago.
I can understand why an F40 that had been driven would need restoring. If you have ever had a good look underneath one you will have seen that they are essentially at the level of build quality of a Year 10 DT project. If we're talking about an F40LM that had done some actual racing, it might well have needed a full restoration after every race.
Apart from the GTRs that were raced, and the few road cars that might have been neglected (such as those in Brunei), I don't know what one would "restore" on an F1. If the car has been seen regularly by the factory, anything that for whatever reason needed to be dealt with has been dealt with. There is nothing that is going to rust, little that might corrode out-of-sight. Paul Rosche has said that the engine should last for "at least 250,000 kms" before it might need a rebuild.
My car is probably at one end of the spectrum, having many times been gone over with a fine-tooth comb by the factory. As you may be aware, on my car I have had a new braking system and new wheels made up, had most of the suspension redone, new interior, et al. To many cars, including mine, the factory have fitted more efficient radiators, improved a/c, and better headlamps. This is not to mention a new fuel bladder every 5 years (on the F40 the factory recommend 10 years for exactly the same material), and mileage-lifing of parts such as the half-shaft tri-lobe joints. If there was anything to my knowledge that needed or wanted doing, I have done it already.
Unlike on a 27 year-old Ferrari that began to deteriorate the day it left the production line, I'm not sure on an F1 that had been looked after what one would restore. If anyone has any suggestions, however, I would be eager to hear them. I like the car too much to leave any stone unturned.
flemke said:
I have not seen that article, perhaps the issue has not yet gone on sale.
Yes, I have a lot for time for Richard. Yes, the magazine (not he) did something rather thoughtless that bothered me, but that was about 5 years ago.
I can understand why an F40 that had been driven would need restoring. If you have ever had a good look underneath one you will have seen that they are essentially at the level of build quality of a Year 10 DT project. If we're talking about an F40LM that had done some actual racing, it might well have needed a full restoration after every race.
Apart from the GTRs that were raced, and the few road cars that might have been neglected (such as those in Brunei), I don't know what one would "restore" on an F1. If the car has been seen regularly by the factory, anything that for whatever reason needed to be dealt with has been dealt with. There is nothing that is going to rust, little that might corrode out-of-sight. Paul Rosche has said that the engine should last for "at least 250,000 kms" before it might need a rebuild.
My car is probably at one end of the spectrum, having many times been gone over with a fine-tooth comb by the factory. As you may be aware, on my car I have had a new braking system and new wheels made up, had most of the suspension redone, new interior, et al. To many cars, including mine, the factory have fitted more efficient radiators, improved a/c, and better headlamps. This is not to mention a new fuel bladder every 5 years (on the F40 the factory recommend 10 years for exactly the same material), and mileage-lifing of parts such as the half-shaft tri-lobe joints. If there was anything to my knowledge that needed or wanted doing, I have done it already.
Unlike on a 27 year-old Ferrari that began to deteriorate the day it left the production line, I'm not sure on an F1 that had been looked after what one would restore. If anyone has any suggestions, however, I would be eager to hear them. I like the car too much to leave any stone unturned.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my original post. I didn't mean to imply that I thought your F1 required any restoration. More that the format of the article (discussion with the owner on acquiring the car and what work he'd subsequently had done to it, followed by a track test) would work well in the context of your car and the modifications you've made to it. Yes, I have a lot for time for Richard. Yes, the magazine (not he) did something rather thoughtless that bothered me, but that was about 5 years ago.
I can understand why an F40 that had been driven would need restoring. If you have ever had a good look underneath one you will have seen that they are essentially at the level of build quality of a Year 10 DT project. If we're talking about an F40LM that had done some actual racing, it might well have needed a full restoration after every race.
Apart from the GTRs that were raced, and the few road cars that might have been neglected (such as those in Brunei), I don't know what one would "restore" on an F1. If the car has been seen regularly by the factory, anything that for whatever reason needed to be dealt with has been dealt with. There is nothing that is going to rust, little that might corrode out-of-sight. Paul Rosche has said that the engine should last for "at least 250,000 kms" before it might need a rebuild.
My car is probably at one end of the spectrum, having many times been gone over with a fine-tooth comb by the factory. As you may be aware, on my car I have had a new braking system and new wheels made up, had most of the suspension redone, new interior, et al. To many cars, including mine, the factory have fitted more efficient radiators, improved a/c, and better headlamps. This is not to mention a new fuel bladder every 5 years (on the F40 the factory recommend 10 years for exactly the same material), and mileage-lifing of parts such as the half-shaft tri-lobe joints. If there was anything to my knowledge that needed or wanted doing, I have done it already.
Unlike on a 27 year-old Ferrari that began to deteriorate the day it left the production line, I'm not sure on an F1 that had been looked after what one would restore. If anyone has any suggestions, however, I would be eager to hear them. I like the car too much to leave any stone unturned.
And, no, I'm not sure the latest edition of evo is in the shops yet. My subs copy only arrived this morning. It's worth picking up a copy though as I found both the F40 article and the new NSX review interesting. Harris described the NSX as a junior 918. Are you tempted by a new one considering your views on the original?
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