Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
castex said:
Flemke, why the scum talk?
It doesn't seem to me to be an appropriate word.
They're people trying to make money from a commodity.
The car market went crazy ages ago; we're still out there having fun on the road.
I can't believe they've got to you like this!
Based on what I have seen, people who flip cars - buying with no intention of keeping, but only temporarily to exploit a shortage of immediate supply - are doing a contemptible thing.It doesn't seem to me to be an appropriate word.
They're people trying to make money from a commodity.
The car market went crazy ages ago; we're still out there having fun on the road.
I can't believe they've got to you like this!
It's the same in principle as running ahead in the securities markets, which has unfortunately become very common but that does not make it any less contemptible.
Yes, a lot of crazy things have happened in the automobile market in the last decade, but most of them are not unethical. I think flipping is.
The very point of flipping is to grab something that you don't really want before somebody who does really want it is able to do so, in order for you then to charge him a ransom to get it from you.
Markets go up and down, fair enough. What we're talking about here is not the action of an open and efficient market. We're talking about dealers colluding with their pals - no doubt often in return for reciprocal favours - and shafting genuine customers (the people who as you rightly say want to be out there having fun driving).
It happens all the time, especially in an indiscriminate bull market, but that does not make it right.
It might not be right but they're not scum. Anyone in this market can afford to save for just that bit longer to acquire the car of their dreams, surely.
In this capitalist society people are being ripped-off left, right and in the middle. Take a look at systematic ticket touting. That gets my goat. I'd have quite liked to see Led Zeppelin when they reformed for the last ever time not all that long ago. Or even Kate Bush. No chance. As if by magic all the tickets are gone within 2 minutes and then appear for twice or thrice the price on ebay and elsewhere. I could maybe have afforded that but i will not out of principle. I'm still cross about it, but -still- they're not scum. It's all about the money, honey.
The flipping of new Mclaren cars by individuals, by comparison, is rather small fry.
Sorry for straying offtopic on this excellent thread.
In this capitalist society people are being ripped-off left, right and in the middle. Take a look at systematic ticket touting. That gets my goat. I'd have quite liked to see Led Zeppelin when they reformed for the last ever time not all that long ago. Or even Kate Bush. No chance. As if by magic all the tickets are gone within 2 minutes and then appear for twice or thrice the price on ebay and elsewhere. I could maybe have afforded that but i will not out of principle. I'm still cross about it, but -still- they're not scum. It's all about the money, honey.
The flipping of new Mclaren cars by individuals, by comparison, is rather small fry.
Sorry for straying offtopic on this excellent thread.
Edited by castex on Friday 8th January 22:59
castex said:
It might not be right but they're not scum. Anyone in this market can afford to save for just that bit longer to acquire the car of their dreams, surely.
In this capitalist society people are being ripped-off left, right and in the middle. Take a look at systematic ticket touting. That gets my goat. I'd have quite liked to see Led Zeppelin when they reformed for the last ever time not all that long ago. Or even Kate Bush. No chance. As if by magic all the tickets are gone within 2 minutes and then appear for twice or thrice the price on ebay and elsewhere. I could maybe have afforded that but i will not out of principle. I'm still cross about it, but -still- they're not scum. It's all about the money, honey.
The flipping of new Mclaren cars by individuals, by comparison, is rather small fry.
Sorry for straying offtopic on this excellent thread.
You have every right to be p.o.'d about ticket touts. If I were you I'd be very unhappy.In this capitalist society people are being ripped-off left, right and in the middle. Take a look at systematic ticket touting. That gets my goat. I'd have quite liked to see Led Zeppelin when they reformed for the last ever time not all that long ago. Or even Kate Bush. No chance. As if by magic all the tickets are gone within 2 minutes and then appear for twice or thrice the price on ebay and elsewhere. I could maybe have afforded that but i will not out of principle. I'm still cross about it, but -still- they're not scum. It's all about the money, honey.
The flipping of new Mclaren cars by individuals, by comparison, is rather small fry.
Sorry for straying offtopic on this excellent thread.
Perhaps we have different definitions of "scum".
There are after all different levels of it.
castex said:
Don't you like Kate Bush?
Like most people, I have my own taste in music and, like most people, I have no talent in music or insight into what is good or bad, well done or badly done. All I know is what I like, which shouldn't count for anything.Since you asked, I think Kate Bush is a pretentious fool, but, as I say, that is merely a matter of my own taste. She may be immensely talented and have achieved a great deal - I am not competent to say.
If her work gives pleasure to her and other people - great. It's big world.
castex said:
Don't you like Kate Bush?
I do. At least she writes her own stuff, which I think puts her in a rare category as a ‘pop’ singer. And for the record, I don't like flippers either. Not that I could afford any of the exotica that gets flipped. And concur with Flemke re the factories announcing a new iconic model, and then say 'sorry, they’re all sold anyway'. For that reason, any motor magazine that writes a review of such, I read it in W H Smiths !!Agree on the general point about flippers.
On the point about pre-sold limited editions, they're a very clever tool from the manufacturer's point of view.
Lots of folk for whom money is not tight are seeking validation, membership of high-falutin' clubs, and recognition of their elite status.
How frustrating for such a chap to not be allowed to buy a specific £100k car, when they already have 5 similar ones!
"Sorry sir, the allocation is very small and as such goes only to our most longstanding and loyal customers."
What better way to drive greater spend than the dangled carrot of attaining this special status?
I don't blame Porsche at all for this. Very clever, and it only kids those who make themselves kiddable.
A version of a 911 is only special through a function of rarity and arbitrary designation as such.
You could make your own superior limited edition of 1 starting from a cooking 911, but that wouldn't come with the external validation.
On the point about pre-sold limited editions, they're a very clever tool from the manufacturer's point of view.
Lots of folk for whom money is not tight are seeking validation, membership of high-falutin' clubs, and recognition of their elite status.
How frustrating for such a chap to not be allowed to buy a specific £100k car, when they already have 5 similar ones!
"Sorry sir, the allocation is very small and as such goes only to our most longstanding and loyal customers."
What better way to drive greater spend than the dangled carrot of attaining this special status?
I don't blame Porsche at all for this. Very clever, and it only kids those who make themselves kiddable.
A version of a 911 is only special through a function of rarity and arbitrary designation as such.
You could make your own superior limited edition of 1 starting from a cooking 911, but that wouldn't come with the external validation.
Will you be selling your P1 for what it cost you then? or maybe even less....
People take gambles, most win, some lose (xj220)
If you make a few squid on the sale good luck to you I say, its the buyers that set the market price not the sellers, if they are happy to pay over list then alls good, the factory are happy as they have hit their sales target at the pre determined price, the middle man has taken a punt that has paid off, and the buyer has the car they want. Win Win for all.
People take gambles, most win, some lose (xj220)
If you make a few squid on the sale good luck to you I say, its the buyers that set the market price not the sellers, if they are happy to pay over list then alls good, the factory are happy as they have hit their sales target at the pre determined price, the middle man has taken a punt that has paid off, and the buyer has the car they want. Win Win for all.
I think the point (at least it is for me) is the seemingly arbitrary, likely nothing like, method of getting wind and on the list before they're even announced.
When they are fully sold out, and yet there's always stock at some of the well known high end dealers such as Prindiville or Hartley, something is up.
Same for those individuals who seemingly always get an early allocation, and get pretty much everything released, but drive less miles than Doris next door who only pops to the shops twice a week.
When there's as much money in it as there is at the moment, I'm sure there are 'mutually beneficial' arrangements between some dealers/sales staff and those flipping as a hobby.
The 911GT is nothing special, just relatively normal kit - it's merely aimed at the more analogue loving driver. No reason for it to be limited, and it's not like Porsche are selling it at a massive premium, so it's not a money spinner for them...
When they are fully sold out, and yet there's always stock at some of the well known high end dealers such as Prindiville or Hartley, something is up.
Same for those individuals who seemingly always get an early allocation, and get pretty much everything released, but drive less miles than Doris next door who only pops to the shops twice a week.
When there's as much money in it as there is at the moment, I'm sure there are 'mutually beneficial' arrangements between some dealers/sales staff and those flipping as a hobby.
The 911GT is nothing special, just relatively normal kit - it's merely aimed at the more analogue loving driver. No reason for it to be limited, and it's not like Porsche are selling it at a massive premium, so it's not a money spinner for them...
Sway said:
I think the point (at least it is for me) is the seemingly arbitrary, likely nothing like, method of getting wind and on the list before they're even announced.
When they are fully sold out, and yet there's always stock at some of the well known high end dealers such as Prindiville or Hartley, something is up.
Same for those individuals who seemingly always get an early allocation, and get pretty much everything released, but drive less miles than Doris next door who only pops to the shops twice a week.
When there's as much money in it as there is at the moment, I'm sure there are 'mutually beneficial' arrangements between some dealers/sales staff and those flipping as a hobby.
The 911GT is nothing special, just relatively normal kit - it's merely aimed at the more analogue loving driver. No reason for it to be limited, and it's not like Porsche are selling it at a massive premium, so it's not a money spinner for them...
Uh, not really the same I'm hearing if it's the same car. The 911R (or GT) it seems will be priced at some silly price (think similar to the premium for the 997 sport classic) and be limited to something like 900 cars. Limited edition cars are not really meant to be major money spinners being well, limited?When they are fully sold out, and yet there's always stock at some of the well known high end dealers such as Prindiville or Hartley, something is up.
Same for those individuals who seemingly always get an early allocation, and get pretty much everything released, but drive less miles than Doris next door who only pops to the shops twice a week.
When there's as much money in it as there is at the moment, I'm sure there are 'mutually beneficial' arrangements between some dealers/sales staff and those flipping as a hobby.
The 911GT is nothing special, just relatively normal kit - it's merely aimed at the more analogue loving driver. No reason for it to be limited, and it's not like Porsche are selling it at a massive premium, so it's not a money spinner for them...
The issue with limited/rare cars really is that they are essentially a licence to print money at least where Ferrari/Porsche are concerned so there's a mad rush to buy them, not for the car itself but simply for profit imo with all the guff about 'the right people' getting them and yet cars always end up at the usual dealers. The manufacturers however seem happy for this to continue though and seemingly refuse to build to order (at least for cars like say the 991 gt3rs are concerned) because they actively support the idea that cars get flipped out for ever increasing premiums to create the perception of desirability.
flemke said:
Based on what I have seen, people who flip cars - buying with no intention of keeping, but only temporarily to exploit a shortage of immediate supply - are doing a contemptible thing.
I can see what you're saying, but as a counterpoint look at Chris Harris when he bought a GT3 4.0 on credit. By his own admission he couldn't afford to buy it outright but he could afford to own it for a year or so if values went up. You can't say he didn't love that car as much as a man can! PAUL500 said:
Will you be selling your P1 for what it cost you then? or maybe even less....
People take gambles, most win, some lose (xj220)
If you make a few squid on the sale good luck to you I say, its the buyers that set the market price not the sellers, if they are happy to pay over list then alls good, the factory are happy as they have hit their sales target at the pre determined price, the middle man has taken a punt that has paid off, and the buyer has the car they want. Win Win for all.
???People take gambles, most win, some lose (xj220)
If you make a few squid on the sale good luck to you I say, its the buyers that set the market price not the sellers, if they are happy to pay over list then alls good, the factory are happy as they have hit their sales target at the pre determined price, the middle man has taken a punt that has paid off, and the buyer has the car they want. Win Win for all.
Buyers and sellers together create the market price.
Who said that a buyer is "happy to pay over list". A buyer might be willing to pay over list, but that is a different thing. I don't think there are many legitimate buyers who are happy to have to pay extra simply because some pathetic little 5hit weasled his way into temporarily getting control of a car that he never wanted but he knew that someone else wanted.
Nb: If you think that I would be "flipping" my P1, I am afraid that you don't know what the term means.
robinessex said:
castex said:
Don't you like Kate Bush?
I do. At least she writes her own stuff, which I think puts her in a rare category as a ‘pop’ singer. My view is that writers and arrangers should be the ones who get the credit for a lot of the best pop music. Most of the raw material is so good that any performer with a pulse could make it sound good.
In terms of their actual contribution to the result, the performers are often nothing more than organ grinders' monkeys, and should be treated as such.
SpeckledJim said:
Agree on the general point about flippers.
On the point about pre-sold limited editions, they're a very clever tool from the manufacturer's point of view.
Lots of folk for whom money is not tight are seeking validation, membership of high-falutin' clubs, and recognition of their elite status.
How frustrating for such a chap to not be allowed to buy a specific £100k car, when they already have 5 similar ones!
"Sorry sir, the allocation is very small and as such goes only to our most longstanding and loyal customers."
What better way to drive greater spend than the dangled carrot of attaining this special status?
I don't blame Porsche at all for this. Very clever, and it only kids those who make themselves kiddable.
A version of a 911 is only special through a function of rarity and arbitrary designation as such.
You could make your own superior limited edition of 1 starting from a cooking 911, but that wouldn't come with the external validation.
Your point is apposite, but does not apply universally.On the point about pre-sold limited editions, they're a very clever tool from the manufacturer's point of view.
Lots of folk for whom money is not tight are seeking validation, membership of high-falutin' clubs, and recognition of their elite status.
How frustrating for such a chap to not be allowed to buy a specific £100k car, when they already have 5 similar ones!
"Sorry sir, the allocation is very small and as such goes only to our most longstanding and loyal customers."
What better way to drive greater spend than the dangled carrot of attaining this special status?
I don't blame Porsche at all for this. Very clever, and it only kids those who make themselves kiddable.
A version of a 911 is only special through a function of rarity and arbitrary designation as such.
You could make your own superior limited edition of 1 starting from a cooking 911, but that wouldn't come with the external validation.
There are at least a few people who buy cars because they admire what went into them and they like driving them!
seefarr said:
flemke said:
Based on what I have seen, people who flip cars - buying with no intention of keeping, but only temporarily to exploit a shortage of immediate supply - are doing a contemptible thing.
I can see what you're saying, but as a counterpoint look at Chris Harris when he bought a GT3 4.0 on credit. By his own admission he couldn't afford to buy it outright but he could afford to own it for a year or so if values went up. You can't say he didn't love that car as much as a man can! Just because you buy a car which you can afford only with finance doesn't mean that you are a flipper, especially if after buying you drive it a lot.
The flippers are the ones who buy cars only when they are "hot", try to get the earliest possible build slots even though the earliest cars are usually the ones with the most problems, and try to sell on those cars before they have even taken delivery.
Speaking for myself, although I have bought cars that were produced in pre-limited build-runs, I did not buy them for that reason. I would greatly prefer that no cars were produced in pre-limited numbers, with the price set accordingly.
If, however, a company markets a car on the basis that its production will be limited to "X", and especially if it prices the car to reflect its limited numbers, the company has both a moral and a legal obligation to stick to its word. That is why I'm selling the P1.
I think there are various definitions of flipping.
This one:
I think people leveraging their "status" to flip or queue jump is equally poor form.
Maybe the differentiation is whether the buyer puts meaningful miles on the car. I must admit I have some tolerance for speculators, assuming they're obtaining cars via the exact same channels normal Joe Public would. That is commodity trading. Equally, I think those who apply foresight and intelligence to get in to a car they may not be able to afford unless they can flip it at retail+costs are in a different camp.
I enquired about a GT4 (last spring and summer) and was told that my lack of previous Porsche purchases and existing demand excluded me from being able to have one. Obviously the zero mile UK cars classifieds have been well stocked since the delivery of the early cars, but at a 20% premium. They can FRO. What proportion of those are ethical or unethical flips depends of definitions. However, they're all annoying for a would be purchaser.
This one:
flemke said:
We're talking about dealers colluding with their pals - no doubt often in return for reciprocal favours - and shafting genuine customers (the people who as you rightly say want to be out there having fun driving).
I agree is unethical and piss boiling.I think people leveraging their "status" to flip or queue jump is equally poor form.
Maybe the differentiation is whether the buyer puts meaningful miles on the car. I must admit I have some tolerance for speculators, assuming they're obtaining cars via the exact same channels normal Joe Public would. That is commodity trading. Equally, I think those who apply foresight and intelligence to get in to a car they may not be able to afford unless they can flip it at retail+costs are in a different camp.
I enquired about a GT4 (last spring and summer) and was told that my lack of previous Porsche purchases and existing demand excluded me from being able to have one. Obviously the zero mile UK cars classifieds have been well stocked since the delivery of the early cars, but at a 20% premium. They can FRO. What proportion of those are ethical or unethical flips depends of definitions. However, they're all annoying for a would be purchaser.
DeuxCentCinq said:
This ad was linked on the previous page by someone.The price is ludicrous.
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