Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[br d]

robinessex said:

Brings back a statement I made once before. If you want to be on the approved list, to buy the latest supercar or whatever, you're invited to a track demo. If you can't manage to extract 75% of it's potential, you can't have one! So there!

If that's how it worked I would never have owned any of my cars, christ I don't even think I'd have the Transit Vans at work!

[SpeckledJim]

Davey S2 said:

SpeckledJim said:

Davey S2 said:

SpeckledJim said:

Davey S2 said:

robinessex said:

Brings back a statement I made once before. If you want to be on the approved list, to buy the latest supercar or whatever, you're invited to a track demo. If you can't manage to extract 75% of it's potential, you can't have one! So there!

I'd prefer to see manufacturers just open the order book for a set period time. Anyone who orders one and pays the deposit during that time can have one.

So like every normal car then?

Yes but only available for a limited time.

e.g Porsche reveal full spec and prices for a car then say order book opens on January 1st for one month then it closes.

Seems like the worst of all worlds for Porsche:

• Whatever unique bits are on the car can't be tooled or engineered for a specific production run. WHY NOT? AT THE END OF THE DEPOSIT PHASE YOU KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY CARS ARE GOING TO BE PRODUCED. But then you're committed to building the car you offered, whether you sold 1 or 10,000. Doh.

• There's no feeling of exclusivity around the whole thing. SO WHAT? YOU WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET THE CAR YOU WANT. I don't think the manufacturer is too bothered about that. Exclusivity sells. That's the whole point of a limited edition.

• Customers who'll only have the money in 6 weeks can't have one and hate you because your deadline looks totally arbitrary, whereas a limited edition 'makes sense'. SO THE SAME AS EVERYTHING IN LIFE THEN? IF YOU DONT HAVE THE MONEY YOU CANT HAVE ONE. Don't think you've understood me here. '1 of 500' is very very different to 'only sold during May 2016'

• Huge effort in dealer preparations and training required for a small hit - NO DIFFERENT TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO FOR CARS LIKE THE GT3RS OF WHICH DEALERS ONLY GET A HANDFUL EACH. But they can match the effort to the scale of the project when they know it's 500 cars. They can't do that if they have no idea if its anything between 1-10,000, can they?

• No time to try to sell more if required. SAME AS NOW THEN. Nope, not at all. At the moment if you're selling a defined 500 cars, you can give yourself as long as you want to achieve that.

Can't see why thems that sets the rules would give themselves the above headaches when they've already got such an effective way of doing it.

It's not that much different to what they do now other than they would probably sell more cars.

To my knowledge, nobody sells cars like that. Despite most manufacturers being in the 'sell as many as we can' game.

So I'd guess they probably wouldn't sell more cars doing it your way.

[Davey S2]

SpeckledJim said:

To my knowledge, nobody sells cars like that. Despite most manufacturers being in the 'sell as many as we can' game.

So I'd guess they probably wouldn't sell more cars doing it your way.

Really? Have a look on the threads on here and see how many people genuinely wanted to buy a GT4, GT3RS, Speciale, F12 TDF etc but couldn't.

If they really want the cars to be small numbers and really exclusive then I agree it wouldn't work but the whole 'we are only building 500 cars and by the way they are already all sold' statements are hugely frustrating for genuine buyers.

[thegreenhell]

Davey S2 said:

Really? Have a look on the threads on here and see how many people genuinely wanted to buy a GT4, GT3RS, Speciale, F12 TDF etc but couldn't.

If they really want the cars to be small numbers and really exclusive then I agree it wouldn't work but the whole 'we are only building 500 cars and by the way they are already all sold' statements are hugely frustrating for genuine buyers.

All they need to do is have an open order book, first come first served, after the car is officially announced. If it's a limited edition then the order book just stays open until they're all sold, rather than for a fixed time period.

The problem now is the cars are all sold out before it's even officially announced, mostly to the old boys network and dealers' mates, so Joe Public who first sees it at a motorshow and fancies one has no chance.

[edd11ee1]

Mikeeb said:

Not only do you have great taste in cars, but in bicycles also.

Agreed

[edd11ee1]

flemke said:

Eddie,

During this millennium I have been prosecuted for speeding once. I was driving on a deserted 3-lane road in Scotland on a Sunday night - of course perfectly appropriate circumstances for a hidden Scottish Police speed trap. The Police justified the speed trap because, they said, this was an area where there was a history of deer being hit by motor vehicles. I did wonder why, in the previous 50 miles, there had not been one single sign warning of animals.

I have frames made by Merlin, Seven, Mondonico, Merckx, Pegoretti, Colnago, and Jack Bradley. They are usually custom geometry. At the moment they are mostly in storage, so the most valuable thing I have in my house may be the 2 year-old laptop on which I'm typing this.

Hi Flemke,

It makes perfect sense that they'd be spending valuable resources policing what sounds like such a perilous section of road, especially at that busy time of day Were you 'caught' in the F1 or another car, and if it was the F1 what was the BIB's reaction to the car?

Also as somebody has alluded to already, you have an excellent choice in bikes, I guessed they'd be some that weren't 'off the peg' and I like the fact you have some steel frames in there- good choice sir

[Sway]

flemke said:

I have frames made by Merlin, Seven, Mondonico, Merckx, Pegoretti, Colnago, and Jack Bradley. They are usually custom geometry. At the moment they are mostly in storage, so the most valuable thing I have in my house may be the 2 year-old laptop on which I'm typing this.

Crikey, this could turn into one big mother of a thread tangent!

I won't go there ,but I have to ask, as it seems the sort of thing that would fit what comes across as your character - you wouldn't have happened to have loaned to a young lad working in a bike shop in Richmond a carbon Trek road bike for a summer about 15 years ago? That chap was also very into cars, particularly the aesthetics...

Whether it was you or not, I'm gutted I never managed to say thank you properly - and it sparked a love of road bikes and riding ever since.

[flemke]

SpeckledJim said:

But can Ferrari make demands of an owner with whom they don't have a contract - someone who bought a car from a dealer?

Most manufacturer's agreements with their dealers preclude them from selling cars direct to the public. I think dealers and manufacturers are now very carefully held at arms length from each other on pain of big penalties - in Europe at least.

They may be arm's-length in some ways, but if I were to go to Porsche AG and ask them to bypass the dealers and sell me a car directly, I know what the answer would be.

AIUI, some car-makers have requirements in their dealer contracts that bar the dealers from selling new cars from their own inventory at above RRP. (Some dealers supposedly get around that by having the company directors buying cars as individuals and flipping them for a personal profit, although I cannot believe that a car dealer would be so unscrupulous. Shocking!)

I don't know enough about the law to speak to the feasibility under present law of car-makers' changing their policies to make flipping more difficult. I have no doubt that, if the political will were there, the practice could be substantially reduced. The fact is that the will is not there, if only because the world has got countless problems that are more important than this one is. The mentality usually is that, if something affects only those in or above the economic upper middle class, we're not bothered, and it is hard to argue against that priority.

That does not, however, change the fact that certain activities that harm only the economically advantaged do not pass the smell test. As a principle, that applies to £200k sports cars as much as it applies £100 concert tickets.

[flemke]

thegreenhell said:

Davey S2 said:

Really? Have a look on the threads on here and see how many people genuinely wanted to buy a GT4, GT3RS, Speciale, F12 TDF etc but couldn't.

If they really want the cars to be small numbers and really exclusive then I agree it wouldn't work but the whole 'we are only building 500 cars and by the way they are already all sold' statements are hugely frustrating for genuine buyers.

All they need to do is have an open order book, first come first served, after the car is officially announced. If it's a limited edition then the order book just stays open until they're all sold, rather than for a fixed time period.

The problem now is the cars are all sold out before it's even officially announced, mostly to the old boys network and dealers' mates, so Joe Public who first sees it at a motorshow and fancies one has no chance.

That would be good, although still we would have the problem that the dealers would let their pals know in advance and the pals' names would magically appear on the list as "first came". Legitimate buyers would have no way of knowing that the names ahead of them on the list were not bona fide.

From the consumers' point of view, the fairest thing would be simply no pre-set production limits. Car-makers don't like that, one supposes, because it makes planning more difficult, does not create as much halo effect, and, at least they believe, compromises their pricing of other models.

[flemke]

edd11ee1 said:

Mikeeb said:

Not only do you have great taste in cars, but in bicycles also.

Agreed

There are a lot of great frame-builders around. This is truly their Golden Age.

[flemke]

edd11ee1 said:

flemke said:

Eddie,

During this millennium I have been prosecuted for speeding once. I was driving on a deserted 3-lane road in Scotland on a Sunday night - of course perfectly appropriate circumstances for a hidden Scottish Police speed trap. The Police justified the speed trap because, they said, this was an area where there was a history of deer being hit by motor vehicles. I did wonder why, in the previous 50 miles, there had not been one single sign warning of animals.

I have frames made by Merlin, Seven, Mondonico, Merckx, Pegoretti, Colnago, and Jack Bradley. They are usually custom geometry. At the moment they are mostly in storage, so the most valuable thing I have in my house may be the 2 year-old laptop on which I'm typing this.

Hi Flemke,

It makes perfect sense that they'd be spending valuable resources policing what sounds like such a perilous section of road, especially at that busy time of day Were you 'caught' in the F1 or another car, and if it was the F1 what was the BIB's reaction to the car?

Also as somebody has alluded to already, you have an excellent choice in bikes, I guessed they'd be some that weren't 'off the peg' and I like the fact you have some steel frames in there- good choice sir

In Scotland I was driving a CLS.

Steel frames can be things of beauty. I forgot to mention a frame made by Richard Sachs, which is one of my favourites.

[flemke]

Sway said:

flemke said:

I have frames made by Merlin, Seven, Mondonico, Merckx, Pegoretti, Colnago, and Jack Bradley. They are usually custom geometry. At the moment they are mostly in storage, so the most valuable thing I have in my house may be the 2 year-old laptop on which I'm typing this.

Crikey, this could turn into one big mother of a thread tangent!

I won't go there ,but I have to ask, as it seems the sort of thing that would fit what comes across as your character - you wouldn't have happened to have loaned to a young lad working in a bike shop in Richmond a carbon Trek road bike for a summer about 15 years ago? That chap was also very into cars, particularly the aesthetics...

Whether it was you or not, I'm gutted I never managed to say thank you properly - and it sparked a love of road bikes and riding ever since.

I am afraid, Mr Sway, that I was not that person. I have never owned a Trek.

My normal bike shop is not in Richmond but a few miles away, Sigma in Hampton Wick.

[Sway]

flemke said:

Sway said:

flemke said:

I have frames made by Merlin, Seven, Mondonico, Merckx, Pegoretti, Colnago, and Jack Bradley. They are usually custom geometry. At the moment they are mostly in storage, so the most valuable thing I have in my house may be the 2 year-old laptop on which I'm typing this.

Crikey, this could turn into one big mother of a thread tangent!

I won't go there ,but I have to ask, as it seems the sort of thing that would fit what comes across as your character - you wouldn't have happened to have loaned to a young lad working in a bike shop in Richmond a carbon Trek road bike for a summer about 15 years ago? That chap was also very into cars, particularly the aesthetics...

Whether it was you or not, I'm gutted I never managed to say thank you properly - and it sparked a love of road bikes and riding ever since.

I am afraid, Mr Sway, that I was not that person. I have never owned a Trek.

My normal bike shop is not in Richmond but a few miles away, Sigma in Hampton Wick.

Ah, figured it was a long shot.

A few of the chaps I worked with as a lad now work at Sigma - top blokes and a great shop.

[flemke]

Sway said:

flemke said:

Sway said:

flemke said:

I have frames made by Merlin, Seven, Mondonico, Merckx, Pegoretti, Colnago, and Jack Bradley. They are usually custom geometry. At the moment they are mostly in storage, so the most valuable thing I have in my house may be the 2 year-old laptop on which I'm typing this.

Crikey, this could turn into one big mother of a thread tangent!

I won't go there ,but I have to ask, as it seems the sort of thing that would fit what comes across as your character - you wouldn't have happened to have loaned to a young lad working in a bike shop in Richmond a carbon Trek road bike for a summer about 15 years ago? That chap was also very into cars, particularly the aesthetics...

Whether it was you or not, I'm gutted I never managed to say thank you properly - and it sparked a love of road bikes and riding ever since.

I am afraid, Mr Sway, that I was not that person. I have never owned a Trek.

My normal bike shop is not in Richmond but a few miles away, Sigma in Hampton Wick.

Ah, figured it was a long shot.

A few of the chaps I worked with as a lad now work at Sigma - top blokes and a great shop.

Yes, although it once took them 5 (five) years to build a bike for me. That seemed a bit excessive.
On the other hand, by the time that they were finished, none of us could remember how much of it I had already paid for.

[Don1]

flemke said:

Yes, although it once took them 5 (five) years to build a bike for me. That seemed a bit excessive.
On the other hand, by the time that they were finished, none of us could remember how much of it I had already paid for.

Hadn't you paid in full up front?

I'd imagine you like your finishing kits. Do you also dabble in MTB at all?
Do you collect anything else you find aesthetically pleasing? Personally I have a real thing for Zippo lighters - so simple, so effective and yet so easy to be utterly individual.

[edd11ee1]

flemke said:

In Scotland I was driving a CLS.

Steel frames can be things of beauty. I forgot to mention a frame made by Richard Sachs, which is one of my favourites.

They certainly can, I have an 853 mtb frame with full XTR etc.. that was made for me by a chap who builds for pashley (amongst others), but also does private work under his own name. Tis a thing of beauty

Been debating at getting a Cielo (Chris King) but struggling to justify it- road bikes aren't really my thing and I would only really be buying it for its aesthetic appeal.

[flemke]

edd11ee1 said:

flemke said:

In Scotland I was driving a CLS.

Steel frames can be things of beauty. I forgot to mention a frame made by Richard Sachs, which is one of my favourites.

They certainly can, I have an 853 mtb frame with full XTR etc.. that was made for me by a chap who builds for pashley (amongst others), but also does private work under his own name. Tis a thing of beauty

Been debating at getting a Cielo (Chris King) but struggling to justify it- road bikes aren't really my thing and I would only really be buying it for its aesthetic appeal.

Nothing wrong with aesthetic appeal!

I have been tempted by the Cielo, as its built by CK who does everything right, but I couldn't deal with its logo. Also, I should ride some of my existing bikes more before getting another.

[robinessex]

Talking of cars sold before anyone knows about it:-

Even though it hasn’t been officially revealed yet, the upcoming limited-run Lamborghini rumored to be called “Centenario” has already reached sold out status. For £2.38M (more for the roadster). Autocar has learned the plan is to make just 40 units (20 coupes & 20 roadsters) and all of them have already found an owner.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/1160112102847/lamborgh...

[flemke]

Don1 said:

flemke said:

Yes, although it once took them 5 (five) years to build a bike for me. That seemed a bit excessive.
On the other hand, by the time that they were finished, none of us could remember how much of it I had already paid for.

Hadn't you paid in full up front?

I'd imagine you like your finishing kits. Do you also dabble in MTB at all?
Do you collect anything else you find aesthetically pleasing? Personally I have a real thing for Zippo lighters - so simple, so effective and yet so easy to be utterly individual.

It was a Pegoretti frame that I had sourced elsewhere (Sigma do not distribute for him) and brought to them.
No, they didn't ask me to pay for the individual components before the whole bike was built up. Along the way, I and presumably they never imagined that the process would take as long as it did.

I have just one MTB, which I got more as a town and daily bike, not so much for riding on rough surfaces: hard-tail, rigid fork.

[flemke]

robinessex said:

Talking of cars sold before anyone knows about it:-

Even though it hasn’t been officially revealed yet, the upcoming limited-run Lamborghini rumored to be called “Centenario” has already reached sold out status. For £2.38M (more for the roadster). Autocar has learned the plan is to make just 40 units (20 coupes & 20 roadsters) and all of them have already found an owner.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/1160112102847/lamborgh...

There is something odd about celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of a mass-market hero, but inviting only 40 people to the party, and then sending out a press release telling everyone else that they weren't invited.