Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
Dr Gitlin said:
flemke said:
The reason that I am still waiting for my car is that the builder has not finished the first "production" car yet. No one would recognise the name because effectively they don't exist.
It wasn't Christ Craft's Lightning was it?
Edited by TheRocket on Wednesday 27th July 17:33
TheRocket said:
I think the '50's-style hot-rod' was actually after the 'Lightning'. The 'Lightning' was meant to be a conventional 2 seater with bespoke 2 litre V8 (2 Yahama 1000 exup's mated to a common crank) Car magazine featured it on the front cover back in July 1996, sadly that never made it to production either, another car ahead of it's time...
Quite interesting, nice to finally see a taste of the 'Lightning', Im guessing the size of the car was about the same as a TVR of the time?Flemke said:
I myself am a bit sceptical that GM would do another supercar.
For the reasons that I outlined above, I believe that new supercars will drive straight into a cul-de-sac. At least with a Veyron, you've got something that is genuinely unique, and that also performs for its owners a distinct (if sad) social function; with it, all the general disadvantages of current and future supercar ownership are perhaps mitigated.
With a, whatever, £100-250 grand supercar, what are you going to do with it? You can't drive it fast enough often enough, and fast driving is the sine qua non of a supercar. Yet for that kind of money you cannot build one that is special enough to achieve the sort of social differentiation that the Veyron does.
By no means am I happy about this, but I think it's the reality.
If someone came up with a small road car that weighed 350 kg, with 150 bhp, that was beautifully designed and had superb build quality, that would be the supercar of the future - at least for me.
Next quote is about what Flemke said was the closest to that 350 kg, 150 bhp target, The Rocket!
flemke said:
I'm lucky enough to have a Rocket; it is a superb machine.
As I alluded above, for enthusiastic driving on public roads, I really think that these sorts of petite cars are the way forward. The more horsepower/more weight binge is a loser's game.
Above quote from July 11th, 2007 (!) in early Volume 4 of the threadAs I alluded above, for enthusiastic driving on public roads, I really think that these sorts of petite cars are the way forward. The more horsepower/more weight binge is a loser's game.
Flemke, Do you think the reality has changed much? That combination of a 100-250 grand car not able to achieve being special but also offering the social differentiation from more expensive machinery.
I think a good example of 'special' feeling cars is the BAC mono, it's seems like a very special car from the center driving position to the engine, gearbox, and general performance. (Also there is a ridiculous yacht edition of the car...)
Then again the mono is closer to a Caparo T1 than a Rocket. Only one which is really usable on typical roads
Has your vision of the suitable super car of the future changed, if so how?
I for one would still love to learn, drive, and perhaps own a Rocket at one point. There seems to be 3 in the United States, all of which are Bright Red. I'm still looking forward to Clive's book on the Rocket and more
Thanks.
Edited by Szulc on Wednesday 27th July 18:16
Edited by Szulc on Wednesday 27th July 18:17
Szulc said:
Above quote from July 11th, 2007 (!) in early Volume 4 of the thread
Flemke, Do you think the reality has changed much? That combination of a 100-250 grand car not able to achieve being special but also offering the social differentiation from more expensive machinery.
I think a good example of 'special' feeling cars is the BAC mono, it's seems like a very special car from the center driving position to the engine, gearbox, and general performance. (Also there is a ridiculous yacht edition of the car...)
Then again the mono is closer to a Caparo T1 than a Rocket. Only one which is really usable on typical roads
Has your vision of the suitable super car of the future changed, if so how?
I for one would still love to learn, drive, and perhaps own a Rocket at one point. There seems to be 3 in the United States, all of which are Bright Red. I'm still looking forward to Clive's book on the Rocket and more
Thanks.
I didn't realise there were 3 in the USA, I've seen the red one recently sold and Jay Leno's. Are they different to the UK cars to meet USA regulations?Flemke, Do you think the reality has changed much? That combination of a 100-250 grand car not able to achieve being special but also offering the social differentiation from more expensive machinery.
I think a good example of 'special' feeling cars is the BAC mono, it's seems like a very special car from the center driving position to the engine, gearbox, and general performance. (Also there is a ridiculous yacht edition of the car...)
Then again the mono is closer to a Caparo T1 than a Rocket. Only one which is really usable on typical roads
Has your vision of the suitable super car of the future changed, if so how?
I for one would still love to learn, drive, and perhaps own a Rocket at one point. There seems to be 3 in the United States, all of which are Bright Red. I'm still looking forward to Clive's book on the Rocket and more
Thanks.
Edited by Szulc on Wednesday 27th July 18:16
Edited by Szulc on Wednesday 27th July 18:17
I think there is a 25yr rule which might make it possible to import (early) Rockets from next year, maybe you can pick one up then!
The Lightning was more Lotus Elise sized/weight than TVR from what I can remember, the shape evolved slightly from the picture on the magazine but sadly went no further, financially unviable, the engine was eventually evolved / developed by Russel Savoury I think who built the v8 Caterham Levante.
AFAIK the 'Rockets' in the U.S. went there in component form and were assembled there, I assume this circumnavigates U.S. Type approval laws ? but I don't think they are legal to drive in all U.S. States. I've read a draft of Clive's book and it's worth the (long...) wait.
Flemke have you driven your Rocket recently ? Sadly I had to let mine go last year but was lucky to have it for 9 years and many miles, imo there is still nothing like it, BAC Mono is a race car for the road, more play station than the Analogue Rocket.
AFAIK the 'Rockets' in the U.S. went there in component form and were assembled there, I assume this circumnavigates U.S. Type approval laws ? but I don't think they are legal to drive in all U.S. States. I've read a draft of Clive's book and it's worth the (long...) wait.
Flemke have you driven your Rocket recently ? Sadly I had to let mine go last year but was lucky to have it for 9 years and many miles, imo there is still nothing like it, BAC Mono is a race car for the road, more play station than the Analogue Rocket.
TheRocket said:
flemke said:
Dr Gitlin said:
flemke said:
The reason that I am still waiting for my car is that the builder has not finished the first "production" car yet. No one would recognise the name because effectively they don't exist.
It wasn't Christ Craft's Lightning was it?Also, there was the lovely little car of which he and Luke actually constructed a runner, which was reviewed in evo ten or so years ago.
Anyhow, Chris, Gordon Murray and I did start on a little project, which after about a year at least Gordon and I thought we probably should not pursue, so we dropped it. That was not the project of which I was speaking.
There is a different person who for more than eleven years now has been developing a little track-orientated car. At an early stage I got involved, part of our agreement was that I would get the first production car, and I am still waiting for the first production car to be produced.
Szulc said:
Above quote from July 11th, 2007 (!) in early Volume 4 of the thread
Flemke, Do you think the reality has changed much? That combination of a 100-250 grand car not able to achieve being special but also offering the social differentiation from more expensive machinery.
I think a good example of 'special' feeling cars is the BAC mono, it's seems like a very special car from the center driving position to the engine, gearbox, and general performance. (Also there is a ridiculous yacht edition of the car...)
Then again the mono is closer to a Caparo T1 than a Rocket. Only one which is really usable on typical roads
Has your vision of the suitable super car of the future changed, if so how?
I for one would still love to learn, drive, and perhaps own a Rocket at one point. There seems to be 3 in the United States, all of which are Bright Red. I'm still looking forward to Clive's book on the Rocket and more
Thanks.
I was getting quite interested in the Mono, until I saw that the chassis was a metal space frame. I thought that, for the money, and in keeping with the ethos of the rest of the car, it really called for a carbon fibre monocoque. I've nothing against a space frame, but a space frame suits the ethos of the Rocket, which beautifully evokes the '60s, not the ethos of a '00s car with a pretend-racing car steering "rectangle", carbon fibre body panels, and a sequential 'box.Flemke, Do you think the reality has changed much? That combination of a 100-250 grand car not able to achieve being special but also offering the social differentiation from more expensive machinery.
I think a good example of 'special' feeling cars is the BAC mono, it's seems like a very special car from the center driving position to the engine, gearbox, and general performance. (Also there is a ridiculous yacht edition of the car...)
Then again the mono is closer to a Caparo T1 than a Rocket. Only one which is really usable on typical roads
Has your vision of the suitable super car of the future changed, if so how?
I for one would still love to learn, drive, and perhaps own a Rocket at one point. There seems to be 3 in the United States, all of which are Bright Red. I'm still looking forward to Clive's book on the Rocket and more
Thanks.
Part of my issue with modern Ferraris, McLarens, Lambos and the rest is that they are coming ever closer to each other, just as Formula One cars are too similar to one another. The one thing that we really do not need is more outright speed to be wasted because it cannot be exploited or even sampled on public roads. Therefore, if one likes driving, and if one would like not to be associated with the teenage-and-younger minds of YouTube and a lap around Harrods, one must seek an alternative.
The beauty of the Rocket is that as a driver one feels totally connected to what is going on with all parts of the system, legal or nearly so speeds on the public roads can bring great driving pleasure, and when one is on the roads one is not thought of as just another pretentious tosser.
Rather than spending a lot of money on another completely unnecessary 50 or 100 bhp, or carbon fibre sill plates, I would much rather spend it on beautifully machined suspension parts or cam covers that I can actually see and admire. On the P1, you literally cannot open the engine cover without the assistance of a factory technician.
One nice thing about the F1 is that you really can look around inside and underneath it and appreciate the thought and skill that went into making it.
Crockefeller said:
I didn't realise there were 3 in the USA, I've seen the red one recently sold and Jay Leno's. Are they different to the UK cars to meet USA regulations?
I think there is a 25yr rule which might make it possible to import (early) Rockets from next year, maybe you can pick one up then!
I think there is a 25yr rule which might make it possible to import (early) Rockets from next year, maybe you can pick one up then!
TheRocket said:
The Lightning was more Lotus Elise sized/weight than TVR from what I can remember, the shape evolved slightly from the picture on the magazine but sadly went no further, financially unviable, the engine was eventually evolved / developed by Russel Savoury I think who built the v8 Caterham Levante.
AFAIK the 'Rockets' in the U.S. went there in component form and were assembled there, I assume this circumnavigates U.S. Type approval laws ? but I don't think they are legal to drive in all U.S. States. I've read a draft of Clive's book and it's worth the (long...) wait.
Flemke have you driven your Rocket recently ? Sadly I had to let mine go last year but was lucky to have it for 9 years and many miles, imo there is still nothing like it, BAC Mono is a race car for the road, more play station than the Analogue Rocket.
You are both right.AFAIK the 'Rockets' in the U.S. went there in component form and were assembled there, I assume this circumnavigates U.S. Type approval laws ? but I don't think they are legal to drive in all U.S. States. I've read a draft of Clive's book and it's worth the (long...) wait.
Flemke have you driven your Rocket recently ? Sadly I had to let mine go last year but was lucky to have it for 9 years and many miles, imo there is still nothing like it, BAC Mono is a race car for the road, more play station than the Analogue Rocket.
There is a 25-year rule, but there is also a "kit-car" rule.
In the case of the latter, if you import a rolling chassis and, after it has entered the US, you install an engine that is independent of that chassis (in the sense that you could not merely take a Ferrari engine out of the Ferrari car in which it had been installed at the factory, import the parts separately, and then reassemble), the federal safety regs do not apply. (The federal emission regs do apply, however.)
Having imported the parts separately, you can assemble your car and take it to your local state inspection station for registration in that state. That registration will then allow you to drive the car (technically, only as a visitor) in any other state.
Leno's car was actually not part of the production run. Rather, a fellow bought the company from Chris and then built and sold one new chassis, to Leno. Leno imported the chassis and had his people put in the engine. (Btw, Chris later bought the company back.)
That TAG engined 930 looks awesome.
Never heard of it before now. The 930 3.3 has always been my favourite variant of the 911 however I think I might have a new favourite!
One thing that does irritate me is the MP4's without their Marlboro logo's. I kind of get the reason why however it ticks me off to see the Marlboro livery completely removed.
Probably in a minority of one with that view however the livery was/is iconic & i don't like the fact that the livery appears to have been expunged from history.
Just saying & my apologies for posting 'off topic'.
Never heard of it before now. The 930 3.3 has always been my favourite variant of the 911 however I think I might have a new favourite!
One thing that does irritate me is the MP4's without their Marlboro logo's. I kind of get the reason why however it ticks me off to see the Marlboro livery completely removed.
Probably in a minority of one with that view however the livery was/is iconic & i don't like the fact that the livery appears to have been expunged from history.
Just saying & my apologies for posting 'off topic'.
TheRocket said:
Flemke have you driven your Rocket recently ? Sadly I had to let mine go last year but was lucky to have it for 9 years and many miles, imo there is still nothing like it, BAC Mono is a race car for the road, more play station than the Analogue Rocket.
I still vividly remember my first look at a Rocket in the flesh - driven by you in the pouring rain to Goodwood for a Breakfast Club. So obviously enamoured by it, you came over and said 'you must be Sway'! Will keep an eye out for the book. Beautiful things, I do wish someone would do a variant using the knowledge and techniques of today - as per Flemke's post, a composite tub really shouldn't be difficult, modern lines/lighting/etc., same attention to detail and focus on driving purity and quality rather than outright speed.
As it is, I keep telling myself that one day the Rocket will be in reach, whereas I'm much less convinced there'll ever be a F1 in the garage. One day Rodders!
fatboy69 said:
That TAG engined 930 looks awesome.
Never heard of it before now. The 930 3.3 has always been my favourite variant of the 911 however I think I might have a new favourite!
One thing that does irritate me is the MP4's without their Marlboro logo's. I kind of get the reason why however it ticks me off to see the Marlboro livery completely removed.
Probably in a minority of one with that view however the livery was/is iconic & i don't like the fact that the livery appears to have been expunged from history.
Just saying & my apologies for posting 'off topic'.
There is almost no such thing as "off topic" in this thread. Never heard of it before now. The 930 3.3 has always been my favourite variant of the 911 however I think I might have a new favourite!
One thing that does irritate me is the MP4's without their Marlboro logo's. I kind of get the reason why however it ticks me off to see the Marlboro livery completely removed.
Probably in a minority of one with that view however the livery was/is iconic & i don't like the fact that the livery appears to have been expunged from history.
Just saying & my apologies for posting 'off topic'.
Re the Marlboro logo, I agree with you. Its direct descendent does however survive. The graphic history:
flemke said:
There is a different person who for more than eleven years now has been developing a little track-orientated car. At an early stage I got involved, part of our agreement was that I would get the first production car, and I am still waiting for the first production car to be produced.
TVR? 
Crockefeller said:
I didn't realise there were 3 in the USA, I've seen the red one recently sold and Jay Leno's. Are they different to the UK cars to meet USA regulations?
I think there is a 25yr rule which might make it possible to import (early) Rockets from next year, maybe you can pick one up then!
My mistake, there are 2 in the USA!, The car in Florida, which is the only one with Digital Fuel Injection, and Jays. Both cars are red with red chassis coating.I think there is a 25yr rule which might make it possible to import (early) Rockets from next year, maybe you can pick one up then!
Here is a video from Jay's friend, Dennis, visiting Jay to look at his light weight sports cars and they go over his rocket a little. Jay use to have an article and a video about the rocket on the old website, but sadly his website transformed into promotion for only the new videos now.
https://youtu.be/uj6nk9Y9J6s?t=10m5s
I'm still quite a lot of years away from being able to pick up a rocket, both physically and financially, but by the time I am, I will have lots of choices of model years to pick from hopefully!
flemke said:
The beauty of the Rocket is that as a driver one feels totally connected to what is going on with all parts of the system, legal or nearly so speeds on the public roads can bring great driving pleasure, and when one is on the roads one is not thought of as just another pretentious tosser.
Rather than spending a lot of money on another completely unnecessary 50 or 100 bhp, or carbon fibre sill plates, I would much rather spend it on beautifully machined suspension parts or cam covers that I can actually see and admire. On the P1, you literally cannot open the engine cover without the assistance of a factory technician.
I love the beauty of certain cars and the beauty of the engineering. Chris Harris once called the Rocket's steering wheel "Potentially the most beautiful steering wheel of any car ever made" back when he visited Luke. While I'm not entirely certain on the bolts, I do love the shape, badge, and engraving detail on the wheel.Rather than spending a lot of money on another completely unnecessary 50 or 100 bhp, or carbon fibre sill plates, I would much rather spend it on beautifully machined suspension parts or cam covers that I can actually see and admire. On the P1, you literally cannot open the engine cover without the assistance of a factory technician.
I do admire the regular early spyker c8's and all the chrome jewelry and small details around the car. Although I know the looks are quite fishy to some... and some color combinations or stitching can be quite brash!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqCoiLctCKA for Chris Harris review of the Rocket for anyone who is interested
Edited by Szulc on Tuesday 12th December 02:06
Flemke going on a trip?
http://cars.mclaren.com/home/events/lifestyle-and-...
Give me a shout if you are, would love to catch up and shoot some of those cars!
http://cars.mclaren.com/home/events/lifestyle-and-...
Give me a shout if you are, would love to catch up and shoot some of those cars!
flemke said:
Output Flange said:
This isn't directly related to the F1, but includes both McLaren and F1 separately, so...
There's a story doing the rounds that sometime in the late 90s McLaren commissioned Porsche to develop an F1 engine based on a twin-turbo Mezger pushing 1500hp, of which 40 were made. One is rumoured to reside in a 996 owned by Ron Dennis, the others are somewhere in storage.
Does anyone know about these, or even whether it's true?
There is some truth in that, but some myth as well. There's a story doing the rounds that sometime in the late 90s McLaren commissioned Porsche to develop an F1 engine based on a twin-turbo Mezger pushing 1500hp, of which 40 were made. One is rumoured to reside in a 996 owned by Ron Dennis, the others are somewhere in storage.
Does anyone know about these, or even whether it's true?
The engines of which you are speaking were the TAG-Porsche engines produced in the 1980s.
McLaren still have a bunch of unused units in their storage, but not as many as 40.
Ron did have one installed, not by the racing team but by an independent technician who by coincidence is a friend of mine, in the current 911 of the day. I think that would have been a 930.
My friend told me that he thinks no one has ever driven it except himself (for testing). He said that the power band is so narrow that it is virtually impossible to drive, especially on the road. His summary of the car was that it was "just awful".
I know where Ron's (former?) 930 flat nose is living and that would be even more incredible!
dobly said:
Is Flemke French - he seems to have taken the whole of August (and a bit more) off as holiday.....
Am I French? Ouch, monsieur, that is a low blow!This thread has been quiet lately, and consequently I have not had much to say on it.
In the next few weeks we're going to do a little photo session. Some photos will get put into the public domain, or I shall post them here. I think people might enjoy them.
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