Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

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Discussion

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
douglas111 said:
Thanks Flemke.

flemke said:
For one thing, the new braking system would have to be superior to what I have now, and I am not sure that it would be.
Were the original F1 design team much help when you started your works, assuming you were able to contact any of them? Just wondering if they had any ideas, although based on the time you've been developing your own setup, I guess you've covered a lot of ground since then.

What do you think of Lotus? I saw an Evora yesterday and thought it was a nice size for a road car and didn't look stupid or out of place on public roads. I read a magazine interview with the new Lotus boss a few months ago and his emphasis is firmly on building upon Lotus' strengths such as lightness, rather than introducing expensive new models such as a new Esprit and trying to compete with the big boys. He said they are selling very well in the US now. I guess the weak pound will help that even more now.

I know, like many, you also think that most sports and super cars are too fat. The strange thing is that all cars are so big now that a very small sports car like an old MG can look like a kids toy in comparison and slightly at odds with all the other cars around it. Even old 911s look quite small these day.
The fellow who designed most of the F1's suspension subsequently started his own suspension design and consultation business. I hired him to assist me. He was very helpful. We started with the question of tyres, and much of the rest flowed out of the decisions about tyres.

I kind of like the Evora, probably should try one out. The have always seemed a bit over-priced, which doesn't help. This is a big problem for the smaller car manufacturers: they do not sell sufficient numbers to pay for a robust design and development programme, with the result that their cars tend to be more individualistic and inspired but less well made.

I completely agree regarding the increasing bulk of cars. Much of it is unavoidable owing to regulatory requirements, but some is down to the marketplace's (lack of) taste.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
Storer said:
If I needed to take 2 kilos out of the car, I'd rather remove the CD player.

flemke

If, like me you are a touch portly these days the a couple of kgs off the waistline would do the tick!



To my mind that is not so bad, assuming that the passenger was an adult and chose to be there.
My concern are people in other vehicles who have no knowledge of or reason to expect what might be happening around them. To cause harm to them would be indefensible.

flemke


We may view high speed runs on German de-restricted Autobahns as dangerous but I suspect local users get to expect fast cars passing them. They must also be aware there is more risk of a high speed incident.
It is, however, a shame that there is nowhere the ever increasing number of 200mph+ cars can stretch their legs (max speed runs) anywhere in Europe without endangering the public.

The irony is that there are stretches of French AutoRoute where you can see for many miles into the distance, and where there is sometimes no traffic. Rather tempting!
Just because on the Autoroute there is no traffic does not mean that there is no gendarme with a radar gun hiding on a bridge. wink

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
VladD said:
flemke said:
Monty Python said:
Have you fitted any of the 2010 upgrade package?
What was that? confused
Apologies for the formatting, cut and paste from t'web.

McLaren F1 2010 upgrade package 20st July 2009. Today Mclaren Automotive announces a major upgrade package for it's legendary McLaren F1 road car. Frank Stephensen McLaren Automotive Design chief: “Through this upgrade package...."
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.

Don1

15,936 posts

207 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
Slight tangent here Flemke, apologies all.

Design, aesthetics and practicality. This thread makes me think that you prize the aesthetics of the piece in question as much as you do the practicality of it. For example the years spent hunting the right blue (a colour you are very satisfied with it seems!), Vs the practicality of the A2, which I don't think could ever be described as 'a looker'.

Have you ever obtained something that is beautiful but rubbish (such as for me the Starck Juicer)? If so, have you then attempted to keep the beauty but change its ability? What about the reverse - something ugly but works well made beautiful?

Apart from nature, cars, watches and just about anything mechanical, can there be the perfect blend of beauty and practicality?

robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
Just an idle thought. Have you ever thought about having a one off car designed and made? If any country is equiped to do it, it must be the UK.

VladD

7,853 posts

264 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
flemke said:
VladD said:
flemke said:
Monty Python said:
Have you fitted any of the 2010 upgrade package?
What was that? confused
Apologies for the formatting, cut and paste from t'web.

McLaren F1 2010 upgrade package 20st July 2009. Today Mclaren Automotive announces a major upgrade package for it's legendary McLaren F1 road car. Frank Stephensen McLaren Automotive Design chief: “Through this upgrade package...."
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.
No offence taken. I'm glad you could clear up the confusion.

douglas111

60 posts

114 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
flemke said:
The fellow who designed most of the F1's suspension subsequently started his own suspension design and consultation business. I hired him to assist me. He was very helpful. We started with the question of tyres, and much of the rest flowed out of the decisions about tyres.
That's nice to know you were able to get help in that way. It kind of feels like you have been able to keep a connection with the F1s home.

flemke said:
I kind of like the Evora, probably should try one out. The have always seemed a bit over-priced, which doesn't help.
It was a dark grey similar to the one in these photos (I have no connection with Lotus btw, never even sat in one - just a passing observation):







Storer

5,024 posts

214 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
To my mind Lotus have never tended to equip their cars with sufficient power.

I fully support the Colin Chapman ethos of added lightness, but it needs to be combined with sufficient power.

The current Lotus range has no 'supercar' top tier. The old Esprit Turbo of the 1980's has never really been followed up with a real replacement.

This is what I feel is lacking from the Lotus range. The Evora looks good from some angles, but not others, (to my eye) but it's biggest failing is a lack of power. Especially when it no longer has a substantially lighter weight.


douglas111

60 posts

114 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
Storer said:
but it's biggest failing is a lack of power. Especially when it no longer has a substantially lighter weight.
Yes, completely agree ref their weight. They've not long taken quite a chunk of weight out and it's only now comparible with a Cayman, being circa 1,400Kg. I don't really understand why it's still so heavy when weight is supposed to be a Lotus strength. I imagine the Porsche is better spec'd and probably sturdier construction too. sub 1,300Kg would be much more befitting.

400Bhp seems ok to me, for it's weight, especially compared with a Cayman or Cayman S, although I hadn't realised quite how expensive the Evora is now, twice that of a standard Cayman, so I see where Flemke was coming from.

Edited by douglas111 on Tuesday 25th October 23:20


Edited by douglas111 on Tuesday 25th October 23:46

Monty Python

4,812 posts

196 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
flemke said:
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.
Would you have been interested in any of it had it been authentic?

Joe911

2,763 posts

234 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
flemke said:
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.
The document is here:
http://www.autoblog.nl/images/wp2012/divers/McLare...

Love the start ... 20st July smile

Why would someone make all that st up, there's some properly fked up people in the world.

Oh yeah, it also says ... "top speed is now estimated to be significantly faster than 250 mph" - so that's easy right, just a few tweaks here and there. Comedian.


Edited by Joe911 on Wednesday 26th October 08:46

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
Don1 said:
Slight tangent here Flemke, apologies all.

Design, aesthetics and practicality. This thread makes me think that you prize the aesthetics of the piece in question as much as you do the practicality of it. For example the years spent hunting the right blue (a colour you are very satisfied with it seems!), Vs the practicality of the A2, which I don't think could ever be described as 'a looker'.

Have you ever obtained something that is beautiful but rubbish (such as for me the Starck Juicer)? If so, have you then attempted to keep the beauty but change its ability? What about the reverse - something ugly but works well made beautiful?

Apart from nature, cars, watches and just about anything mechanical, can there be the perfect blend of beauty and practicality?
Re the A2, the design is actually quite resolved and coherent. It is not handsome or beautiful, but it is well done for what it is, better than the TT which is too simplistic. I would never buy an A2 for its looks, but that is different.

Re Starck Juicers and the like, nothing comes to mind. I used to design and make things for a living, and prefer to start from scratch.

Can there be a perfect blend of beauty and practicality? In theory there could be - in one's wife. On that score, however, I am afraid that my track record is somewhat flawed. eek



flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
robinessex said:
Just an idle thought. Have you ever thought about having a one off car designed and made? If any country is equiped to do it, it must be the UK.
I started such a project with Gordon Murray and Chris Craft, but partway into it we decided, each for his own reasons, that we had better things to do!

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
VladD said:
flemke said:
VladD said:
flemke said:
Monty Python said:
Have you fitted any of the 2010 upgrade package?
What was that? confused
Apologies for the formatting, cut and paste from t'web.

McLaren F1 2010 upgrade package 20st July 2009. Today Mclaren Automotive announces a major upgrade package for it's legendary McLaren F1 road car. Frank Stephensen McLaren Automotive Design chief: “Through this upgrade package...."
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.
No offence taken. I'm glad you could clear up the confusion.
Although much of that alleged spec sheet was copied and pasted from that for the original car, to compose other parts of it someone took a lot of time and trouble. I can't explain why; there seem to be a lot of odd people out there.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
douglas111 said:
Storer said:
but it's biggest failing is a lack of power. Especially when it no longer has a substantially lighter weight.
Yes, completely agree ref their weight. They've not long taken quite a chunk of weight out and it's only now comparible with a Cayman, being circa 1,400Kg. I don't really understand why it's still so heavy when weight is supposed to be a Lotus strength. I imagine the Porsche is better spec'd and probably sturdier construction too. sub 1,300Kg would be much more befitting.

400Bhp seems ok to me, for it's weight, especially compared with a Cayman or Cayman S, although I hadn't realised quite how expensive the Evora is now, twice that of a standard Cayman, so I see where Flemke was coming from.
Exactly. They should take out 200kg and offer it again.

flemke

22,863 posts

236 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
Monty Python said:
flemke said:
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.
Would you have been interested in any of it had it been authentic?
The paragraphs of the description are so long that they make my eyes glaze over.

Based on what I can tolerate reading, the carbon-ceramic brake rotor idea would be a non-starter because carbon-ceramics require a brake servo. Apart from the effect on brake pedal feel, the servo would have to be powered from some source, which would require mucking around with plumbing and/or wiring. That would probably damage some original parts.

Adaptive dampers are going to add weight and are something else to go wrong.

The engine is fine as it is.

The changes I have made were difficult to fine-tune, but were simple in conception and consistent with the available technology as of the time of production. They also are all reversible while leaving no marks or evidence on the car.

tankplanker

2,479 posts

278 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
douglas111 said:
Yes, completely agree ref their weight. They've not long taken quite a chunk of weight out and it's only now comparible with a Cayman, being circa 1,400Kg. I don't really understand why it's still so heavy when weight is supposed to be a Lotus strength. I imagine the Porsche is better spec'd and probably sturdier construction too. sub 1,300Kg would be much more befitting.

400Bhp seems ok to me, for it's weight, especially compared with a Cayman or Cayman S, although I hadn't realised quite how expensive the Evora is now, twice that of a standard Cayman, so I see where Flemke was coming from.
The standard spec on the Evora is better than the Cayman, so the price comes a lot closer once they are both spec'd to the same level. However the Evora's performance is still better than the current fastest Cayman, the GT4, which has no current production equivalent with the latest 4 cylinder turbo'd Caymans. I think the current Evora is unfairly hampered by falling between a 911 and a Cayman in terms of price and spec so it is compared as more expensive than a Cayman let better, but cheaper than a 911 but not as well built/finished as the 911.

I had a good couple of hours driving both an Evora 400 and a Exige 350 back to back on Saturday. As you'd expect the Evora had a much higher level of polish than the Exige (obviously relative to what Lotus's budget can achieve), it was easier to live with, and more importantly to me sounded better when being pushed hard, although its no V12 orchestral masterpiece it does sound good for a V6 above 5krpm. However the Exige was far more commutative through the steering wheel as it did not have power steering, you could feel the difference between the two in terms of weight on fast changes of direction (1125 kg vs. 1395 kg) and the Exige felt more alive because of this.

If they could offer the Evora without the power steering in the Sport 410 version, which drops to 1325kg (with another 20kg on top to shave off with an exhaust and battery upgrade) and has further sharpened handling tweaks then I think you'd have an old school sports car with bags of character that simply isn't made any more. I've decided to go down the Evora 410 route, although I'll be adding the Sat Nav and the Aircon back in as it'll be a daily for me as I couldn't live with the compromises of the Exige as a daily.

douglas111

60 posts

114 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
tankplanker said:
he standard spec on the Evora is better than the Cayman, so the price comes a lot closer once they are both spec'd to the same level. However the Evora's performance is still better than the current fastest Cayman, the GT4, which has no current production equivalent with the latest 4 cylinder turbo'd Caymans. I think the current Evora is unfairly hampered by falling between a 911 and a Cayman in terms of price and spec so it is compared as more expensive than a Cayman let better, but cheaper than a 911 but not as well built/finished as the 911.

I had a good couple of hours driving both an Evora 400 and a Exige 350 back to back on Saturday. As you'd expect the Evora had a much higher level of polish than the Exige (obviously relative to what Lotus's budget can achieve), it was easier to live with, and more importantly to me sounded better when being pushed hard, although its no V12 orchestral masterpiece it does sound good for a V6 above 5krpm. However the Exige was far more commutative through the steering wheel as it did not have power steering, you could feel the difference between the two in terms of weight on fast changes of direction (1125 kg vs. 1395 kg) and the Exige felt more alive because of this.

If they could offer the Evora without the power steering in the Sport 410 version, which drops to 1325kg (with another 20kg on top to shave off with an exhaust and battery upgrade) and has further sharpened handling tweaks then I think you'd have an old school sports car with bags of character that simply isn't made any more. I've decided to go down the Evora 410 route, although I'll be adding the Sat Nav and the Aircon back in as it'll be a daily for me as I couldn't live with the compromises of the Exige as a daily.
Thanks for the report tankplanker and congratulations on your purchase. You must be very excited. The 400 looks more refined to me, less of a track day car than the 410, or Exige. Will you have to wait long? I heard they have a long waiting list.

Good to hear the Evora performs so well against the Cayman. Perhaps, the Cayman going turbo charged will help attract a few more purists to the Evora, although a continued weak pound will probably make a lot more difference.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a real movement amongst the buying public for more simpler, lighter sports cars? Even the magazines have been following suit in recent years with more emphasis on terms like analogue, driver involvement, having fun and not needing so much power etc. I wonder if they are reacting to fat complicated super cars, reading car forums, or is it just a phase that many of us are going through?

Whilst the Evora doesn't have the steering feel of the Exige, can you rate it compared to the Cayman, or other competitors?

I was reading this last night, which sounds very encouraging:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a3...

Edited by douglas111 on Wednesday 26th October 11:43

tankplanker

2,479 posts

278 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
douglas111 said:
Thanks for the report tankplanker and congratulations on your purchase. You must be very excited. The 400 looks more refined to me, less of a track day car than the 410, or Exige. Will you have to wait long? I heard they have a long waiting list.

Good to hear the Evora performs so well against the Cayman. Perhaps, the Cayman going turbo charged will help attract a few more purists to the Evora, although a continued weak pound will probably make a lot more difference.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a real movement amongst the buying public for more simpler, lighter sports cars? Even the magazines have been following suit in recent years with more emphasis on terms like analogue, driver involvement, having fun and not needing so much power etc. I wonder if they are reacting to fat complicated super cars, reading car forums, or is it just a phase that many of us are going through?

Whilst the Evora doesn't have the steering feel of the Exige, can you rate it compared to the Cayman, or other competitors?

I was reading this last night, which sounds very encouraging:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a3...
I have requested to take delivery of the car next September as that fits in with when I want to change the Golf. I was told that Evoras had a 12 week build process at present, it is longer for the 410 (not sure how much) but mine is so far out I won't have a problem. The Evoras are surprisingly supple to drive, closer to a 911 on PASM set to its softest, yet offers handling closer to a GT3.

I haven't tried the latest Cayman or Boxster with the turbo engines and I'm unlikely to as a combination of my current dislike of Porsche UK, my local Porsche dealer and the switch from the flat six to the turbo'd four. If they started offering a new version of the GT4, as a mainstream build and it was about as good as the old one then I'd reconsider my stance in a heartbeat even if it now came with a 4 cylinder turbo.


F1GTRUeno

6,335 posts

217 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
flemke said:
VladD said:
flemke said:
VladD said:
flemke said:
Monty Python said:
Have you fitted any of the 2010 upgrade package?
What was that? confused
Apologies for the formatting, cut and paste from t'web.

McLaren F1 2010 upgrade package 20st July 2009. Today Mclaren Automotive announces a major upgrade package for it's legendary McLaren F1 road car. Frank Stephensen McLaren Automotive Design chief: “Through this upgrade package...."
No offence, but this (which I appreciate is something that you came across, not something that you yourself composed) is fiction. Someone with nothing better to do invented the whole thing. I guarantee you that it did not happen.
No offence taken. I'm glad you could clear up the confusion.
Although much of that alleged spec sheet was copied and pasted from that for the original car, to compose other parts of it someone took a lot of time and trouble. I can't explain why; there seem to be a lot of odd people out there.
People like attention. Creating an alleged update package statement for a McLaren F1 is guaranteed to be shared by the mindless masses that inhabit car forums and websites. They'll get a kick out of it being shared so many times.