Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
lauda said:
flemke said:
It seems wonderful now to imagine that you might be able to buy a "modern version of the F1" at a fifth of the price of an F1. It's easy to put your name down and make a refundable deposit for that concept, except that concept is not going to happen. Other things being equal, when people figure that out, I expect you will find many fewer of them who are excited about paying £2m+ for what the BP23 actually will be.
What are the significant ways in which you think the BP23 will differ from people's expectations of a true F1 successor? I've heard the car being talked about as a GT rather than a hypercar but wasn't the original F1 conceived as a GT?
The main concession to the GT concept was the tyres - which were a very big concession - but otherwise it's a rather pure driver's car.
As to the ways in which the BP23 will differ, without going into things told to me in confidence and instead relying on what is in the public domain or can be surmised from it, they include:
- F1 was designed with an obsession to minimise weight. That will not be the case in BP23.
- F1 has what was, and possibly still is, the finest, normally aspirated road car engine ever made. BP23's engine will be a variant of the turbo unit in the other modern McLarens. It gets the job done, but is nothing special.
- Part of the purity of the F1 is that it's got a full carbon monocoque with the engine fixed directly to the monocoque and the engine and gearbox functioning as stressed members. It has no sub-frames. Even now, 25 years later, nobody builds road cars that way.
- The F1 is a beautiful car, and nothing else like it or its design "language" was ever made. It is unique. The BP23 will be of a piece with other modern McLarens, making it not unique. As to the beauty of other modern McLarens, and especially future ones, I shall say only that I don't believe they are up there with the F1....
- Contributing substantially to the desirability of the F1 is its heritage. Its top speed as a road car was a step change forward, and the highest for any production road car for many years following. That will not apply to the BP23.
- Even more significant, a modified version of the F1 road car (which unlike the RB/Aston was a genuine road car) won Le Mans outright. That will not be repeated.
Also, the F1 was "lucky" in that it came along at a time when there was a big gap in super-performance road cars. The F40 was agricultural, the 959 had been technologically marvelous but seriously flawed, the XJ220 was as we know a horlix, then there was a big lull until probably the Veyron. In its time and for years after, the F1 had no competition to distract us car nuts away from its specialness.
flemke said:
Also, and I expect this to have a major impact on the car's market value, it seems that most people still have not grasped the fact that the BP23 will not be a successor to the F1. It is meant to be and will be a fundamentally different machine for a fundamentally different purpose. The similarity between the two cars starts - and ends - with the seat configuration.
It seems wonderful now to imagine that you might be able to buy a "modern version of the F1" at a fifth of the price of an F1. It's easy to put your name down and make a refundable deposit for that concept, except that concept is not going to happen. Other things being equal, when people figure that out, I expect you will find many fewer of them who are excited about paying £2m+ for what the BP23 actually will be.
Glad to see some emphasis on this. The early reporting has been woefully misleading - even to the point of having one person ask me if this news meant they would actually begin production of the F1 again. It seems wonderful now to imagine that you might be able to buy a "modern version of the F1" at a fifth of the price of an F1. It's easy to put your name down and make a refundable deposit for that concept, except that concept is not going to happen. Other things being equal, when people figure that out, I expect you will find many fewer of them who are excited about paying £2m+ for what the BP23 actually will be.
>8^)
ER
AOK said:
A 'gift' of £250k which in almost all cases is balanced out by a few decades worth of brand loyalty shown by buying Cayennes, Panameras, Turbos etc brand new with little discount and religiously part exchanging them back every few years with £10k's of losses.
So I know of a football related person (Foreign chap that any football fans will know. Not Jose or Fergie! Won't say) who was/is in a Panamera Turbo. Lets guess at £130K with a few options chucked on it. Allegedly he put down roughly £10K and then had a monthly payment to make of lets guess at a grand to 1500. That's how the truly minted buy a car. He'll have it for 2-3 years. Then trade it back for a new one (or A N Other model depending on whats fashionable) That £46K over 3 years avoids the massive hit on depreciation by never owning it. At £130K and it being worth £60 in 3 year time with 20K on the clock. AND he'll have a service plan so wont pay for servicing either.flemke said:
In its time and for years after, the F1 had no competition to distract us car nuts away from its specialness.
That sentence makes me think of another great mechanical object with that specialness.Concorde.
Joe911. You like to take a photo IIRC?
F1 and Concorde in the same pic? Worthy of a Pistonheads Pic of the Week
trackdemon said:
z4RRSchris said:
that's a PHers still isn't it? gavins?
Indeed it is, stunning car, I've been lucky enough to spend a fair few miles in the r/h passenger seatRich_W said:
Joe911. You like to take a photo IIRC?
F1 and Concorde in the same pic? Worthy of a Pistonheads Pic of the Week
That's kind of been done before actually.F1 and Concorde in the same pic? Worthy of a Pistonheads Pic of the Week
The man is Fred Finn - and while never a McLaren F1 owner AFAIK, he does rank as the world's most traveled man covering over 15M air miles and 718 flights on Concorde, including the very first and very last flight.
The reason I said "kind of" is that car isn't technically a real McLaren F1. Rather it was the Clinic Model, which was a non-functional styling model produced by an outside firm for McLaren Cars in early 1992. It was used in the slate quarry photos for the F1 brochure and was the car they unveiled at the Sporting Club in Monaco in May of that year as the F1 project neared the phase of initial prototype construction.
>8^)
ER
Rich_W said:
AOK said:
A 'gift' of £250k which in almost all cases is balanced out by a few decades worth of brand loyalty shown by buying Cayennes, Panameras, Turbos etc brand new with little discount and religiously part exchanging them back every few years with £10k's of losses.
So I know of a football related person (Foreign chap that any football fans will know. Not Jose or Fergie! Won't say) who was/is in a Panamera Turbo. Lets guess at £130K with a few options chucked on it. Allegedly he put down roughly £10K and then had a monthly payment to make of lets guess at a grand to 1500. That's how the truly minted buy a car. He'll have it for 2-3 years. Then trade it back for a new one (or A N Other model depending on whats fashionable) That £46K over 3 years avoids the massive hit on depreciation by never owning it. At £130K and it being worth £60 in 3 year time with 20K on the clock. AND he'll have a service plan so wont pay for servicing either.Peloton25 said:
Rich_W said:
Joe911. You like to take a photo IIRC?
F1 and Concorde in the same pic? Worthy of a Pistonheads Pic of the Week
That's kind of been done before actually.F1 and Concorde in the same pic? Worthy of a Pistonheads Pic of the Week
The man is Fred Finn - and while never a McLaren F1 owner AFAIK, he does rank as the world's most traveled man covering over 15M air miles and 718 flights on Concorde, including the very first and very last flight.
The reason I said "kind of" is that car isn't technically a real McLaren F1. Rather it was the Clinic Model, which was a non-functional styling model produced by an outside firm for McLaren Cars in early 1992. It was used in the slate quarry photos for the F1 brochure and was the car they unveiled at the Sporting Club in Monaco in May of that year as the F1 project neared the phase of initial prototype construction.
>8^)
ER
Spotted the front fogs and knew.Pic's not great though. Todays snappers (some on here) are far better than a relatively generic PR photo with no filters or correction work.
Yes a proper pairing of the two in front of a lens like GFW's would be great to see. Especially good if the F1 were white as well, to match the plane. There happens to be a white one lingering at MSO at the moment I believe, though I'm not sure it could be made available for such activities.
>8^)
ER
>8^)
ER
Robster said:
trackdemon said:
z4RRSchris said:
that's a PHers still isn't it? gavins?
Indeed it is, stunning car, I've been lucky enough to spend a fair few miles in the r/h passenger seat I do however have experience in the industry, and I very much doubt there would have been a contribution. The industry has very little spare money in it anyway, and the costs associated to prep on an F1 (or indeed any car) would be completely prohibitive. In short, the industry as a whole is hugely reliant on the kind generosity & enthusiasm of wealthy petrolheads (such as our very own Flemke) who make their cars available. We like to think it can be an enjoyable and insightful day out for the owner (should they attend) and it's of course a nice thing to have a set of professional photos and a published article. Thank god we are not short of such individuals in this little island of ours, as we have such a disproportionate amount of such cars with philanthropic owners...LanceRS said:
I'm sure that Brooklands would be quite obliging, anyone able to arrange the F1?
Well, I suppose that a Concorde is much rarer than an F1. On the other hand, many more people have ridden in Concordes than have ridden in F1s.
Perhaps something to do when the weather gets better in the spring.
trackdemon said:
Robster said:
trackdemon said:
z4RRSchris said:
that's a PHers still isn't it? gavins?
Indeed it is, stunning car, I've been lucky enough to spend a fair few miles in the r/h passenger seat I do however have experience in the industry, and I very much doubt there would have been a contribution. The industry has very little spare money in it anyway, and the costs associated to prep on an F1 (or indeed any car) would be completely prohibitive. In short, the industry as a whole is hugely reliant on the kind generosity & enthusiasm of wealthy petrolheads (such as our very own Flemke) who make their cars available. We like to think it can be an enjoyable and insightful day out for the owner (should they attend) and it's of course a nice thing to have a set of professional photos and a published article. Thank god we are not short of such individuals in this little island of ours, as we have such a disproportionate amount of such cars with philanthropic owners...All the media really care about is whether a certain face of the car will look good in photos/video, thus often the photographer will go over and polish the particular highlight that will appear in his shot.
The vehicle's interior is usually irrelevant in a customer car, although obviously for a review of a vehicle on general sale the manufacturer will do whatever it can to enhance the appearance both inside and out.
flemke said:
SpeckledJim said:
With the way a three seater sportscar is packaged, and the benefits of central driving position, I'm amazed it hasn't been done again before.
McLaren owned a patent on the seating layout. Not sure if the patent has expired yet.SpeckledJim said:
flemke said:
SpeckledJim said:
With the way a three seater sportscar is packaged, and the benefits of central driving position, I'm amazed it hasn't been done again before.
McLaren owned a patent on the seating layout. Not sure if the patent has expired yet.It wasn't even a new concept. Ferrari produced a couple of cars in the 1960's with a similar layout, and I think Auto Union had a concept of a staggered three-seater layout with the driver in the middle based on one of their GP chassis in the 1930s, although I don't think it was actually built.
flemke said:
anniesdad said:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMG9GbFg0KM/?taken-by=...
I particularly like this one of Pani Tsouris working on an F1 using the old laptop computer that's essential for maintenance...
I am happy to say that they have almost finished their programme of updating software so that they will be able to use laptops that were made in the present millennium.I particularly like this one of Pani Tsouris working on an F1 using the old laptop computer that's essential for maintenance...
flemke said:
anniesdad said:
They're making the same number of cars as they did F1's...has this been driven by their buyers demands to keep the car ultra-exclusive, thereby keeping demand and hence value high? I think it's fair to say that they could make the same number again maybe more and not have too much trouble shifting them.
Possibly but, as I wrote above, I believe that almost everyone outside of McLaren still has not comprehended that the BP23 will not be a successor to the F1.It will instead be a very well made, futuristic-looking, slightly soft and comfy "GT" car with minimal luggage space (especially relative to three passengers) and a driving position that rewards the driver's driving but makes it difficult for the driver to have a leisurely, grand touring-style chat with the passengers. In other words, something of a contradiction.
When they called me and described the concept, initially I thought, "Hmmm...okay, maybe...", but as it was being described to me, I presumed that this car would be competing against things such as the S-Class and Panamera, which have mastered the design and production of fast and comfortable cars for touring. I figured that it would have a McLaren price tag, but that would mean maybe £400k or, with the "personalisation" stuff maybe £500k, even £600k. But then I was told £2m.
Are there enough folks willing to stump up £2m+ for that thing which already Mercedes and Porsche (and maybe Bentley and Rolls) do so well? If the BP23 ends up looking beautiful, then perhaps so, and certainly for McLaren's sake I hope so. But by no means do I think it is a given.
IMO it is much more likely that there will be enough pretend-racing-driver fantasists out there who will be willing to put up a similar £2m+ for the RB/Aston or Mercedes hypercar.
Within a two year window, with Brexit, the second half of the Trump presidency, and a global economic slowdown all happening, will there be several hundred people each gagging to spend that kind of money on impractical cars?
BTW, when you say that the Panamera has mastered the design...of fast and comfortable GT's I must ask...are you feeling ok?
I totally agree that within 2 years the financial landscape may look very different to what it does now and so maybe McLaren are hedging their bets somewhat. knowing they can make presumably a decent profit from such a limited build run and keep the buyers happy in the process is a win-win.
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