Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
Not sure where you saw a picture of the car, but glad you like it. I still have to get a white stripe painted on the side; will do that after I go on a bit of a drive next week. I have not yet driven the car properly, so I've nothing intelligent (if ever) to say about how it compares with development car, except that, apart from F1, it's got the best driving position I have ever used.
Wrt optional things on the car, they did the gold heat shields on about 10 cars all together, AIUI. I had them put another "Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Team" badge on the rear grille; not sure whether anyone else has done that.
For the interior, apart from a few rotary dials, everything else is either matte carbon or matte black, which IMO looks better than the brushed ally look that is standard. As that took a bit of effort, and I think a changed supplier or at least a supplier that changed what it claimed was "possible", I am not sure whether anyone else has the same finish on those items.
I was told that someone else wanted to have the same colour paint after seeing mine, but the factory told him/her that the paint was proprietary and that they would have to come up with their own colour.
Because of the car's complexity, it is inherently less amenable to modification than is an F1. One can play around with interior and exterior colours, but that's about it.
Many thanks for the reply Wrt optional things on the car, they did the gold heat shields on about 10 cars all together, AIUI. I had them put another "Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Team" badge on the rear grille; not sure whether anyone else has done that.
For the interior, apart from a few rotary dials, everything else is either matte carbon or matte black, which IMO looks better than the brushed ally look that is standard. As that took a bit of effort, and I think a changed supplier or at least a supplier that changed what it claimed was "possible", I am not sure whether anyone else has the same finish on those items.
I was told that someone else wanted to have the same colour paint after seeing mine, but the factory told him/her that the paint was proprietary and that they would have to come up with their own colour.
Because of the car's complexity, it is inherently less amenable to modification than is an F1. One can play around with interior and exterior colours, but that's about it.
It looked to me that the white stripe was in place are you not happy with the way it looks ? After your road trip what are your thoughts now ?
I find it amazing that you had to try so hard to get the air vents the colour you wanted I thought anything is possible from the great folk in Woking
Would it be possible to take a pic of a close up of the gold around the exhaust ?
And by the way how's the F1 after its service !
Many thanks again for taking the time to reply to so many of my boring questions
Russ
Monty Python said:
fatboy69 said:
Just a thought - if Flemke isn't going to purchase one of the P1 track cars who will get it as i seem to recall that McLaren have said that only P1 buyers would be allowed to buy one.
Apart from Flemke how many other P1 road car owners have not taken up the option to buy?
From what I've heard it's about 30 so far.Apart from Flemke how many other P1 road car owners have not taken up the option to buy?
ilovevolvo said:
flemke said:
Not sure where you saw a picture of the car, but glad you like it. I still have to get a white stripe painted on the side; will do that after I go on a bit of a drive next week. I have not yet driven the car properly, so I've nothing intelligent (if ever) to say about how it compares with development car, except that, apart from F1, it's got the best driving position I have ever used.
Wrt optional things on the car, they did the gold heat shields on about 10 cars all together, AIUI. I had them put another "Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Team" badge on the rear grille; not sure whether anyone else has done that.
For the interior, apart from a few rotary dials, everything else is either matte carbon or matte black, which IMO looks better than the brushed ally look that is standard. As that took a bit of effort, and I think a changed supplier or at least a supplier that changed what it claimed was "possible", I am not sure whether anyone else has the same finish on those items.
I was told that someone else wanted to have the same colour paint after seeing mine, but the factory told him/her that the paint was proprietary and that they would have to come up with their own colour.
Because of the car's complexity, it is inherently less amenable to modification than is an F1. One can play around with interior and exterior colours, but that's about it.
Many thanks for the reply Wrt optional things on the car, they did the gold heat shields on about 10 cars all together, AIUI. I had them put another "Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Team" badge on the rear grille; not sure whether anyone else has done that.
For the interior, apart from a few rotary dials, everything else is either matte carbon or matte black, which IMO looks better than the brushed ally look that is standard. As that took a bit of effort, and I think a changed supplier or at least a supplier that changed what it claimed was "possible", I am not sure whether anyone else has the same finish on those items.
I was told that someone else wanted to have the same colour paint after seeing mine, but the factory told him/her that the paint was proprietary and that they would have to come up with their own colour.
Because of the car's complexity, it is inherently less amenable to modification than is an F1. One can play around with interior and exterior colours, but that's about it.
It looked to me that the white stripe was in place are you not happy with the way it looks ? After your road trip what are your thoughts now ?
I find it amazing that you had to try so hard to get the air vents the colour you wanted I thought anything is possible from the great folk in Woking
Would it be possible to take a pic of a close up of the gold around the exhaust ?
And by the way how's the F1 after its service !
Many thanks again for taking the time to reply to so many of my boring questions
Russ
In fairness, it was McLaren who sorted it out, by persuading or pressurising their suppliers to do what was necessary. The result is perfectly done, and one would never guess that the way it is now was not what was intended all along.
The white stripe on one side is now just tape. I tacked some on to give me an idea of how a painted stripe would look. I like the idea, and we shall be putting on a proper painted stripe (on both sides) in the near future.
I'm not big on taking pictures - my friend Joe911 is the man for that. Maybe we can get one with the gold more visible, or perhaps he's already done one but not posted it yet.
F1 service only partly done. Car looks good with the new wheels; will post some images of it after service complete and car back in my hands.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
And Flemke ?
Feedback on the car now you've 'driven' it ? how does it fit with the development car you drove originally? The level of 'drive' you've given it etc ?
Well...Feedback on the car now you've 'driven' it ? how does it fit with the development car you drove originally? The level of 'drive' you've given it etc ?
For the public roads, the thing is really fast. That was already known, of course, but direct experience is another matter. It is so fast that you cannot really lean on it (except maybe on the Autobahn), because doing so would be unfair to other road users and quite possibly unsafe. It feels like, if you were going at a speed of which the car is capable and you went off the road, the car would keep going and going.
The feeling as the downforce builds is a bit different. You don't feel as though the chassis were simply being pressed into the ground (which is a nice feeling, btw). Rather it seems that the whole machine is becoming more composed the faster it goes.
I was underwhelmed by the steering quality. It is very precise, but for me there is too much stiction over centre and not enough natural build-up of weight as you add more lock, also not enough feel for what is happening at tyre-asphalt interface.
Brakes are great, both in feel and in effectiveness. Nice short pedal with no initial dead travel. There is a "Pre-fill" system which works well for quick changes between throttle and brake.
Car is too wide, which is always bad.
Engine-related noises inside cabin are a matter of taste. There are a lot of different noises; it doesn't sound like a proper engine until maybe 4,500 rpm.
Driving position excellent. Of course that is always made easier if a gearstick is not part of the equation; nonetheless the driving position is exceptionally effective, and from within there is the illusion that the car is small.
Forward visibility good, rear quarter visibility typical for a mid-engined car, which is to say poor.
I can't say much about oversteer/understeer, because you have to be going so fast in order to challenge the grip level that to do so would be irresponsible. There is little chassis roll even at a fairly high g level, although the ride is smooth thanks to the hydraulic suspension.
Gearbox works so well across every parameter that I don't know how it could be much improved. Fast, clean; the manual over-ride of automatic is a handy feature, as is the sequential downshift function when you continue to hold the paddle. You can go up or down from both sides, which is another handy feature.
Those are some of the basics. Perhaps Joe911 has comments to add?
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Anyway -
I sense that there are tweaks you want to apply to this P1 like the F1. Is that
a) on the horizon
b) feasible by the nature of the car, or the status of the programme at Woking ?
Apart from a few cosmetic things, there is not much to do. As you suggest, this car's complexity makes it difficult to change in any meaningful way. For what it is, it works quite well; the systems are balanced and complementary.I sense that there are tweaks you want to apply to this P1 like the F1. Is that
a) on the horizon
b) feasible by the nature of the car, or the status of the programme at Woking ?
If I had a magic wand, I'd get rid of the electric stuff, but by doing that I'd be introducing turbo lag, and the only way of remedying that would be to go to normal aspiration, which would be fine except that to retain the bhp level would require a bigger engine, which would add weight, and we'd be on a slippery slope to nowhere.
I continue to believe that the best formula for a £1m "supercar" would be to put all the "supercar" R&D and build expense into reducing weight whilst making use of "conventional" engine technology. AIUI, the main constraints militating against that are regulatory requirements for airbags, side-impact bars, etc and a universe of buyers who are less drivers and more passive possessors, who will buy something that is a lot of flash and trickery but who will ignore something that is merely wonderful to drive. There is probably not a sufficient market for what I would prefer.
flemke said:
I'd say about 8.65
Interesting your thoughts on the car flemke. Just wondering as well, you mentioned Chris Goodwin and a couple of other Mclaren people said they had spent a lot of work on making the P1 rewarding to drive at non crazy speeds... Would you say they succeeded in that respect?flemke said:
Monty Python said:
Looks like you'll need an army of trained ferrets to clean some of the nooks and crannies on that beast, but it's great to see that it'll be used properly and not kept in a warm garage and few warm oil every week.
So, marks out of ten?
I'd say about 8.65So, marks out of ten?
Edited by Ultrasound on Monday 3rd November 15:34
flemke said:
Perhaps Joe911 has comments to add?
Was a tremendous privilege of course to follow, passenger and drive the P1, I drove about 500 miles - including the 300 mile run back from Nurburg to Calais on decent German roads, autobahn and autoroute.As Flemke, and everyone, says - it is incredibly fast (though after a bunch of miles you do just get used to it) - leagues faster than anything else I'd been in - the power is relentless and the speed keeps coming even at high speed. Initially it seems like instantaneous acceleration and not like a regular turbo car - due to the torque fill. Certainly if you switch off the electric assistance the acceleration (in comparison) seems a bit limp until the turbos are fully spinning. I sat as a passenger in a LaF and it did feel more instantly accelerative than the P1, and of course the noise reinforces the experience - which is actually faster, side-by-side, we didn't get a chance to try. I also rode in a Veyron SuperSport during the trip and I can't say that felt slow either - 4WD really helping the acceleration.
Yes the gearbox is very slick - much faster than the auto in the SLS Black of course - though without the theatre. That SLS was really good - very big - but the engine is monstrous and on big enough roads it's spectacular.
Brakes excellent, not sure how they could be better.
The ride is also very good - again comparing with the SLS the P1 is much more comfortable, but without being sloppy - you have more confidence on uneven surfaces as it manages them better. I'd really want to go on track with the P1 to play with it relatively safely and try and learn how to handle it properly.
Steering - yes it does feel a bit numb - more at lower speeds I think. Normally when tacking a roundabout enthusiastically you can feel how the front of a car is working - but not in the P1 - or not at the speeds I was going. I was happy with the weighting of the steering, and it was completely accurate and precise without any play. It does have the 'stiction' Flemke talked about - though I didn't dislike that. Again - would really want to get it on track to play some more.
Is it rewarding to drive at modest (sub 100) speeds - if like me you have an acceleration addiction then yes (though you might make your passenger sick), otherwise it's clinically effective leaving it ultimately too easy, too good, I guess. On track maybe it's a riot.
Electric-only mode worked perfectly well - it makes a kind of whining sound and it moves along. Pulling away it really does feel like a milk-float - but once it's moving it is responsive enough for round town. It seems odd that it changes gear while in electric mode - we assumed that was to ensure that when the engine cuts back in it's at the right rev range? Dropping into e-mode seemed to be fine - though I found it inconsistent cutting back to normal mode - sometime it didn't seem to want to do that, I must check the manual to see if there are some wrinkles to it.
The noise inside the cabin is almost comical - it's like an 8-year old decided what noises would be cool. It sucks air in, and flutters it out - often in a way that seems unrelated to the throttle inputs. Trickling around in town with very modest throttle movements you get sucking air sounds and waste-gate chatter. Strangely, when you are really moving and the engine is on song the sounds of the sucking and fluttering are mostly drowned out. The car apparently has ISG (intake sound generator) and ESG (exhaust sound generator) - though neither can be controlled/modified. The engine never sounds wonderful - it's OK - but the LaF and even the humble (yeah right) SLS are leagues better.
The interior ergonomics are interesting - loads of really good stuff with plenty of things well-positioned - though also some stupid stuff. The main screen is good and the side screens fine. The left stalk control for the on-screen menus is not entirely intuitive - the same stalk controls al the menus but also the suspension lift system - whenever I fumbled for the lift system I ended up adjusting the interior lighting. I am in the software industry and feel that I am pretty confident with controlling computers but it had me frustrated many times. The ISIS screen is too low - you have to look down to see it and so take you focus off the road - it needs to be mounted higher up - and when you move you hand to press a button on the screen you obscure the button and so can't see where to press. The Drive/Neutral/Reverse buttons are too far back on the centre console, you really have to move your arm and look where to find them rather than simply dropping your hand down naturally. I'm tallish but found the seats are comfortable and pedals seem good and the wheel in a good position. I didn't like the wipers (wiper) - it obscures too much vision while it is wiping. There is pretty fair luggage space. Build quality is really excellent - loads of really nice details all over the car.
I was really surprised how poor the electronic systems were - I always had the view that McLaren electronics, with Tag etc. were world leaders. Maybe they outsourced ISIS and the other electronics - very poor - both in terms of UI, intuitiveness, and speed of response. The fuel remaining gauge generates almost random numbers - we had no miles left - but 10 litres in the tank, and at other times a 200 mile difference in range from one moment to the next. Maybe it's just faulty?
I have to mention the IPAS - some marketing numpty had a stupid idea and I can only assume the engineers rolled their eyes and tutted. When you switch on the car and drive you get all the power - engine and electric combined - it's awesome - all the power always on demand via the right foot. We did 1500 miles in 3 days and never did we deplete the battery - really effective. There's a button on the centre console labelled 'boost' - what it does is switch OFF the electric assistance, making the engine feel a little limp - but you can then press the IPAS button on the steering wheel to bring the electric assistance back in. WTF - why take it out in the first place! Also, when you do press the IPAS button from boost mode there seems like a delay before it comes in and the overall effect is much less satisfying than the normal mode. I tried to play with the DRS, but despite it showing in the display I really couldn't get it working - I really need to reread that part of the manual.
There is no DAB ... I mean WTF!
The ISIS being almost touch-screen only is also very poor UI. It is slow, and you have to look at it to see the buttons and so take your eyes off the road. It is slow and the menus are very poorly laid out. All the same as the 12C/650S I would assume. The satnav sometimes thought we were in a field and kept zooming in and out annoyingly. Have they based the thing on MS Windows, it seems like it. Boot up time is another issue - especially for ISIS, but also for the car itself - why does it take so long to wake up? The computer system really do need some work.
So, there are some negatives for sure, but that should not detract from the incredible achievement that the car is - as a driving weapon it is really devastating. I'm really lucky to have had a play, thank you.
Unfortunately, marketing got involved with IPAS and DRS and wanted an "F1 connection" hence these buttons! They really don't do anything you can't do, or should be able to do with just you foot!
Regarding Emode gearshifts: The Electric motor is geared 2:1 to the engine crankshaft and mounted "Upstream" (ie the engine side) of the transmission. This results in the car changing gear in Emode as well as in combined mode. The advantage is that the Emachine can run close to it's maximum output across the full vehicle speed range, and hence maximise performance. (if the Emachine is fix geared to the wheels, there is only 1 road speed at which the electric machine will actually produce maximum power)
Regarding the "noises" from the engine bay: Although the intake and exhaust have been acoustically optimised, the noises aren't fake as such. What you will find, is that during normal driving on the road, the engine noises, and particularly the turbo "whistles" are not necessarily synchronised with the drivers throttle input. This is because the hybrid control system will run the engine at a higher load than the driver is asking for at the rear wheels, and use the Emachine as a generator, absorbing that extra torque from the engine before it reaches the rear wheels, and charging the traction battery with that power. So, the driver might be crusiing at say 15% throttle (say 100Nm @ crankshaft) but the hybrid system will actually command the engine to say 200Nm and the Emachine to -100Nm.
Regarding Emode gearshifts: The Electric motor is geared 2:1 to the engine crankshaft and mounted "Upstream" (ie the engine side) of the transmission. This results in the car changing gear in Emode as well as in combined mode. The advantage is that the Emachine can run close to it's maximum output across the full vehicle speed range, and hence maximise performance. (if the Emachine is fix geared to the wheels, there is only 1 road speed at which the electric machine will actually produce maximum power)
Regarding the "noises" from the engine bay: Although the intake and exhaust have been acoustically optimised, the noises aren't fake as such. What you will find, is that during normal driving on the road, the engine noises, and particularly the turbo "whistles" are not necessarily synchronised with the drivers throttle input. This is because the hybrid control system will run the engine at a higher load than the driver is asking for at the rear wheels, and use the Emachine as a generator, absorbing that extra torque from the engine before it reaches the rear wheels, and charging the traction battery with that power. So, the driver might be crusiing at say 15% throttle (say 100Nm @ crankshaft) but the hybrid system will actually command the engine to say 200Nm and the Emachine to -100Nm.
Max
So ... how does the (not fake) noise get from the place of origin (i.e. the wastegate, or whatever) into the cabin? Is it sent electrically into the cabin and amplified by a traditional speaker (like in some BMW's I think) - or is it mechanical, perhaps a tube relaying the sound into the cabin?
Do you know anything about ISIS and computers ... why do they seem so poor? It may be that (as is often the way) that the software engineers are good talented people and that the system was released before it was finished (as I suspect happened on the 12C). That does not in my view justify the terrible UI though
It's a real shame it lets down an epic car.
Max_Torque said:
Regarding Emode gearshifts: The Electric motor is geared 2:1 to the engine crankshaft and mounted "Upstream" (ie the engine side) of the transmission. This results in the car changing gear in Emode as well as in combined mode. The advantage is that the Emachine can run close to it's maximum output across the full vehicle speed range, and hence maximise performance. (if the Emachine is fix geared to the wheels, there is only 1 road speed at which the electric machine will actually produce maximum power)
Interesting, thanks.Max_Torque said:
Regarding the "noises" from the engine bay: Although the intake and exhaust have been acoustically optimised, the noises aren't fake as such. What you will find, is that during normal driving on the road, the engine noises, and particularly the turbo "whistles" are not necessarily synchronised with the drivers throttle input. This is because the hybrid control system will run the engine at a higher load than the driver is asking for at the rear wheels, and use the Emachine as a generator, absorbing that extra torque from the engine before it reaches the rear wheels, and charging the traction battery with that power. So, the driver might be crusiing at say 15% throttle (say 100Nm @ crankshaft) but the hybrid system will actually command the engine to say 200Nm and the Emachine to -100Nm.
Again, very interesting - thanks for the info. I don't think that justifies those noises, but it does explain them So ... how does the (not fake) noise get from the place of origin (i.e. the wastegate, or whatever) into the cabin? Is it sent electrically into the cabin and amplified by a traditional speaker (like in some BMW's I think) - or is it mechanical, perhaps a tube relaying the sound into the cabin?
Do you know anything about ISIS and computers ... why do they seem so poor? It may be that (as is often the way) that the software engineers are good talented people and that the system was released before it was finished (as I suspect happened on the 12C). That does not in my view justify the terrible UI though
It's a real shame it lets down an epic car.Max_Torque said:
Unfortunately, marketing got involved with IPAS and DRS and wanted an "F1 connection" hence these buttons! They really don't do anything you can't do, or should be able to do with just you foot!
I have no evidence to base this on, but as a marketer have to add some defence here - my suspicion is that the marketers were responding to those buyers who fit into the category Flemke refers to as possessors rather than users of the car - they would be buying a car from an F1 manufacturer and expect some F1 features in it. Marketing respond to that need rather than creating it in order to sell 375 cars at the right price. I will add that it is a shame this is necessary, but marketers only respond to customers expectations (although sometimes customers may not have directly expressed the expectation).And I wish I'd seen the convoy of P1, LaF, Veyron SS and SLS Black - must have been great to see those cars together let alone travel in them!
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