Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
What I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
Didn't you throw your toys out of the pram in a similar way when you found out McLaren were making 500 LT Spiders on top of the Coupe? (despite still benefiting very well financially from being able to get an LT Coupe?)...Customer spend lots of money with the marque then feels badly let down / hard done by and then complains.
I still find it hard to believe anyone would accept (whether told by the top brass or not) that McL wouldn't ever build a spider version of the LT. It was always going to happen. Ferrari have profited from doing this for years so it was inevitable McL would follow suit. I'm surprised they haven't made 100 or so P1 Spiders given the LaFerrari Aperta.
- I don't believe that I benefited financially from the experience: certainly not in the relative and probably not in the absolute either.
- The LT coupe was available to any member of the public, not only to favoured customers or people on the inside.
- The issue with the broken limit was not a question of how many they made overall, but rather that the price they charged was commensurate with a build-run of only 500. I would have preferred it if they had said, "We're going to build to demand, and the base price will be (say) £225k, or 15% above the 650S." The problem was that they priced it in line with a relatively small build-run, and persuaded 500 people to pay that price (£260k base) in part specifically because of the promise of a relatively small build-run.
As others above have said, we were lied to, and the reason that we were lied to was that the company knew both that it would be in their interests to lie and that, if they did not lie, at least some of the coupe buyers would not participate, at least not at £260k.
- Lying is a moral issue.
In contrast, artificially limiting how many units of something to make and then, for whatever reasons you might have, composing a priority list of to whom you will offer those units is a private business decision.
It might be an unwise business decision (as I have said, it is something that I dislike and wish would not happen, although sometimes I have benefited and other times I have lost out from the existence of "limited editions"), but it is not a moral issue.
I guess I am naive, but when the CEO of a company with which I have had a personal relationship for 15 years puts in writing, unambiguously, that his company is not going to do something, I expect the company to keep its word. That expectation of integrity is one of the key reasons why I patronise McLaren and I boycott Ferrari, notwithstanding that Ferrari have made some fabulous cars.
Now that McLaren have form in this area, I know to prepare for the worst. Two years ago when they began to take orders for the LT coupe, they did not have that form, and I trusted them.
Had they announced that they were making the Spider in the future would that have affected your decision to buy the coupe? A poor decision to lie on McLaren's part because had they been truthful I doubt it would have made any difference. They would still have sold all of the coupes (at the full price) and then sold all of the Spiders.
I'd agree for most of the cars you list. The Murcie is particularly pretty. I just looked the V10 NSX concept up and was surprised to see how similar it is to the current 488 from the front three-quarters view.
The bright side of the P1 Carbon Series is that they exist on 'refurbished' pre-production P1s. Technically they existed already and the Carbon Series simply helped to legitimise their sale to the public.
It leads on to an interesting question that I have been considering. How many preproduction cars are necessary? The 12C had c. 60. The P1 had c. 21. The 675LT...
Taking McLaren's perspective: they are there with 21 pre-production P1s. What is the reasonable expectation of what should be done with them? Should they be crushed? That seems rather wasteful, particularly as they are significant investments for a small-ish company. Should they be refurbished? That means the cars are essentially brand new, and built to customer choice, and can easily be interpreted as some of the most desirable cars (e.g. with the most exotic history) in the hands of those that may not have adopted immediately. My personal perspective might be that the cars could have been sold 'as is' with no fettling, and perhaps to early adopters. But then what is to stop a customer turning around and refurbishing it after the fact? And add to that you go down the preferential treatment rabbit hole.
The further carbon cars are simply 'rebodies' of cars from the list of known cars. Only one car was delivered originally in full carbon and it was a 'normal' customer run car.
flemke said:
Well...I don't know, because I never asked and never would have asked because I think that all-carbon bodywork looks puerile, but I strongly suspect that, if I had been ordering an LT spider and simply asked, "Can MSO do me a version with all-carbon bodywork at any price?", McLaren would have said, "Sure."
Ultimately they may have decided to do a special run of another 25 spiders (on top of the extra five-bloody-hundred that they announced at the time that they were officially stabbing the coupe buyers in the back), but I am sure that, prior to that special run of 25, if someone had been willing to pay for a one-off carbon version, they would have been willing to build it.
People have imagined that the all-carbon P1s were something special, but the only thing that made them special was that they were a pretext for McLaren to break their word and expand the P1 production run. At any point before that, a P1 buyer could, if he or she had wanted, have ordered one in all-carbon bodywork.
As I have written here before, I am opposed to these phony "limited editions" by all car makers. I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
Ultimately they may have decided to do a special run of another 25 spiders (on top of the extra five-bloody-hundred that they announced at the time that they were officially stabbing the coupe buyers in the back), but I am sure that, prior to that special run of 25, if someone had been willing to pay for a one-off carbon version, they would have been willing to build it.
People have imagined that the all-carbon P1s were something special, but the only thing that made them special was that they were a pretext for McLaren to break their word and expand the P1 production run. At any point before that, a P1 buyer could, if he or she had wanted, have ordered one in all-carbon bodywork.
As I have written here before, I am opposed to these phony "limited editions" by all car makers. I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
The bright side of the P1 Carbon Series is that they exist on 'refurbished' pre-production P1s. Technically they existed already and the Carbon Series simply helped to legitimise their sale to the public.
It leads on to an interesting question that I have been considering. How many preproduction cars are necessary? The 12C had c. 60. The P1 had c. 21. The 675LT...
Taking McLaren's perspective: they are there with 21 pre-production P1s. What is the reasonable expectation of what should be done with them? Should they be crushed? That seems rather wasteful, particularly as they are significant investments for a small-ish company. Should they be refurbished? That means the cars are essentially brand new, and built to customer choice, and can easily be interpreted as some of the most desirable cars (e.g. with the most exotic history) in the hands of those that may not have adopted immediately. My personal perspective might be that the cars could have been sold 'as is' with no fettling, and perhaps to early adopters. But then what is to stop a customer turning around and refurbishing it after the fact? And add to that you go down the preferential treatment rabbit hole.
The further carbon cars are simply 'rebodies' of cars from the list of known cars. Only one car was delivered originally in full carbon and it was a 'normal' customer run car.
flemke said:
I guess I am naive, but when the CEO of a company with which I have had a personal relationship for 15 years puts in writing, unambiguously, that his company is not going to do something, I expect the company to keep its word. That expectation of integrity is one of the key reasons why I patronise McLaren and I boycott Ferrari, notwithstanding that Ferrari have made some fabulous cars.
Is there the possibility that you could get a contract written up that would result in a small refund if the company doesn't keep their word on a specific purchase, to avoid similar situations in future?wst said:
flemke said:
I guess I am naive, but when the CEO of a company with which I have had a personal relationship for 15 years puts in writing, unambiguously, that his company is not going to do something, I expect the company to keep its word. That expectation of integrity is one of the key reasons why I patronise McLaren and I boycott Ferrari, notwithstanding that Ferrari have made some fabulous cars.
Is there the possibility that you could get a contract written up that would result in a small refund if the company doesn't keep their word on a specific purchase, to avoid similar situations in future?
Davey S2 said:
Does that mean you won't order any new Mclarens in the future? That would seem be cutting your nose off to spite your face given you seem to love the products if not the company's ethics.
Had they announced that they were making the Spider in the future would that have affected your decision to buy the coupe? A poor decision to lie on McLaren's part because had they been truthful I doubt it would have made any difference. They would still have sold all of the coupes (at the full price) and then sold all of the Spiders.
Had they made the announcement in good time, I doubt that they could have got as much for the coupe as they did. Even if we assume that they could have got as much, with advance notice of the spider there would have been much less selling pressure on the coupes, because fewer people who really would have wanted a spider but "settled" for a coupe would have got a coupe and then sold it at the announcement of the spider.Had they announced that they were making the Spider in the future would that have affected your decision to buy the coupe? A poor decision to lie on McLaren's part because had they been truthful I doubt it would have made any difference. They would still have sold all of the coupes (at the full price) and then sold all of the Spiders.
Since this incident happened, I have bought from McLaren. We're not yet at the point that I am at with Ferrari, where out of principle I won't buy a Ferrari of any sort or vintage.
cc8s said:
The bright side of the P1 Carbon Series is that they exist on 'refurbished' pre-production P1s. Technically they existed already and the Carbon Series simply helped to legitimise their sale to the public.
It leads on to an interesting question that I have been considering. How many preproduction cars are necessary? The 12C had c. 60. The P1 had c. 21. The 675LT...
Taking McLaren's perspective: they are there with 21 pre-production P1s. What is the reasonable expectation of what should be done with them? Should they be crushed? That seems rather wasteful, particularly as they are significant investments for a small-ish company. Should they be refurbished? That means the cars are essentially brand new, and built to customer choice, and can easily be interpreted as some of the most desirable cars (e.g. with the most exotic history) in the hands of those that may not have adopted immediately. My personal perspective might be that the cars could have been sold 'as is' with no fettling, and perhaps to early adopters. But then what is to stop a customer turning around and refurbishing it after the fact? And add to that you go down the preferential treatment rabbit hole.
The further carbon cars are simply 'rebodies' of cars from the list of known cars. Only one car was delivered originally in full carbon and it was a 'normal' customer run car.
What I object to is that they changed them from prototypes back into brand-new cars, retaining only the supposedly indestructible tubs.
By doing that, they were creating new cars, but disguising the fact by re-allocating the pre-existing prototype chassis numbers.
It would have had far more integrity to take a prototype, give it a good cleaning, but then sell it as-is, with wires coming out of the dashboard and irregular shut-lines in the bodywork. Without question, they should have left on the clock the tub's actual mileage, rather than re-setting it to "0".
wst said:
flemke said:
I guess I am naive, but when the CEO of a company with which I have had a personal relationship for 15 years puts in writing, unambiguously, that his company is not going to do something, I expect the company to keep its word. That expectation of integrity is one of the key reasons why I patronise McLaren and I boycott Ferrari, notwithstanding that Ferrari have made some fabulous cars.
Is there the possibility that you could get a contract written up that would result in a small refund if the company doesn't keep their word on a specific purchase, to avoid similar situations in future?For the new three-seater, they are using careful language ("we have no plans...") to try to assure buyers of this >£2m product that it will not almost immediately be superseded. My assumption that is that almost certainly McLaren will produce other models with a central driving position. Those other models may not be called the "BP-something-or-other"), but they will compete against the BP23 for future buyers' attention, and by doing so hurt the values of BP23s.
flemke said:
I wouldn't object to their having sold off the "prototypes". As you say, the vehicles did exist and McLaren were within their rights to sell them.
What I object to is that they changed them from prototypes back into brand-new cars, retaining only the supposedly indestructible tubs.
Agreed.What I object to is that they changed them from prototypes back into brand-new cars, retaining only the supposedly indestructible tubs.
flemke said:
By doing that, they were creating new cars, but disguising the fact by re-allocating the pre-existing prototype chassis numbers.
By that do you mean that everything was brand new but the VIN was transferred? I may have got mixed up but I was under the impression that it was stripped to the cage only and everything was built up but you seem to be indicating that numbers may ahve been moved around? I've only found one potential indication of that.flemke said:
It would have had far more integrity to take a prototype, give it a good cleaning, but then sell it as-is, with wires coming out of the dashboard and irregular shut-lines in the bodywork. Without question, they should have left on the clock the tub's actual mileage, rather than re-setting it to "0".
Again, agreed. And, if given the opportunity, that's how I would want my pre-production P1 to be. One of the things I love about the very early cars is the lack of the carbon intake infront of the front wheels. The line on the original XPs is very pretty but, obvsiouly, must be 'less good' in some way regarding brake cooling.flemke said:
As I have written here before, I am opposed to these phony "limited editions" by all car makers. I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
I don't want to labour this point but I've just read this post from a Porsche owner on a thread about the 911R:I currently have a 991 Turbo S GB Edition, 997 Sport Classic, GT4 and a Carrera GT. Prior to these I have had a further 9 Porsche models over the last 5 years including Boxster S, 2 x Cayenne Turbo, Macan Turbo, 2 x Macan S Diesel, GT3 (which I sold back to my OPC because I thought I was getting a GT3RS - but didn't), 911 GTS Cab and a Panamera Turbo all well used and sold at the inevitable loss. However, as far as I know I'm NOT getting a 911R as nor did I get a GT3RS!
My cars are all driven and I don't sell the special stuff unless it's to move up ala GT3 to GT3RS and always through OPC for anything special or GT.
I do appreciate that I am a very lucky man, although I've worked hard to earn that. However, what more do I have to do to be classed as "worthy"?
To me this is exactly the sort of customer who should be getting options on the 'halo' cars and I wouldn't describe them as being self-important, snivelling cry babies.
Not sure what the answer is regarding allocating cars but its easy to see why people like this get pi££ed off.
ferrisbueller said:
Flemke, a quickfire threesome, if you'll pardon the expression, if you wouldn't mind please.
A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
I almost added A2 to the list. For what it is, the design is coherent, clean and tight.A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
Veeayt said:
flemke said:
Scirocco
I'm sorry, could you please elaborate on this one? I know it's a handsome car, but then I know little in terms of design. WHat's so great about it in your opinion so that it could stand on the same level as Murcielago or R8?cc8s said:
flemke said:
I wouldn't object to their having sold off the "prototypes". As you say, the vehicles did exist and McLaren were within their rights to sell them.
What I object to is that they changed them from prototypes back into brand-new cars, retaining only the supposedly indestructible tubs.
Agreed.What I object to is that they changed them from prototypes back into brand-new cars, retaining only the supposedly indestructible tubs.
flemke said:
By doing that, they were creating new cars, but disguising the fact by re-allocating the pre-existing prototype chassis numbers.
By that do you mean that everything was brand new but the VIN was transferred? I may have got mixed up but I was under the impression that it was stripped to the cage only and everything was built up but you seem to be indicating that numbers may ahve been moved around? I've only found one potential indication of that.flemke said:
It would have had far more integrity to take a prototype, give it a good cleaning, but then sell it as-is, with wires coming out of the dashboard and irregular shut-lines in the bodywork. Without question, they should have left on the clock the tub's actual mileage, rather than re-setting it to "0".
Again, agreed. And, if given the opportunity, that's how I would want my pre-production P1 to be. One of the things I love about the very early cars is the lack of the carbon intake infront of the front wheels. The line on the original XPs is very pretty but, obvsiouly, must be 'less good' in some way regarding brake cooling.They were sold as being in effect-brand new cars. They were not sold as refurbished old cars with the mileage, usage, and wear and tear of old cars.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well, if something's not street-legal, then it's not street-legal. That would have been McLaren's problem, or the new buyer's problem. It's not an excuse for breaking your commitment to existing customers regarding build numbers.AFAIK, XPs 3 and 4 were not rebuilt, certainly not extensively rebuilt. They were just cleaned up, sorted and sold.
flemke said:
ferrisbueller said:
Flemke, a quickfire threesome, if you'll pardon the expression, if you wouldn't mind please.
A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
I almost added A2 to the list. For what it is, the design is coherent, clean and tight.A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
flemke said:
ferrisbueller said:
Flemke, a quickfire threesome, if you'll pardon the expression, if you wouldn't mind please.
A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
I almost added A2 to the list. For what it is, the design is coherent, clean and tight.A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
I did wonder whether you would go for the factory refresh on the NA1. In your position I know I would. Your own, new, NSX-R. You could sell the F1 then
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