Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
As I have written here before, I am opposed to these phony "limited editions" by all car makers. I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
I don't want to labour this point but I've just read this post from a Porsche owner on a thread about the 911R:I currently have a 991 Turbo S GB Edition, 997 Sport Classic, GT4 and a Carrera GT. Prior to these I have had a further 9 Porsche models over the last 5 years including Boxster S, 2 x Cayenne Turbo, Macan Turbo, 2 x Macan S Diesel, GT3 (which I sold back to my OPC because I thought I was getting a GT3RS - but didn't), 911 GTS Cab and a Panamera Turbo all well used and sold at the inevitable loss. However, as far as I know I'm NOT getting a 911R as nor did I get a GT3RS!
My cars are all driven and I don't sell the special stuff unless it's to move up ala GT3 to GT3RS and always through OPC for anything special or GT.
I do appreciate that I am a very lucky man, although I've worked hard to earn that. However, what more do I have to do to be classed as "worthy"?
To me this is exactly the sort of customer who should be getting options on the 'halo' cars and I wouldn't describe them as being self-important, snivelling cry babies.
Not sure what the answer is regarding allocating cars but its easy to see why people like this get pi££ed off.
If for whatever reason you're making just a small number of something, there are always going to be a handful of people who are at the top of the metaphorical tree: your "best" friends.
One cannot realistically have as many as 911 "best" friends. The number is too large for meaningful discrimination. One knows that the allocation of the 911 units must have included a lot of arbitrary, or at least difficult to justify, choices. That would be my first point.
My second would be that, in the example that you gave, someone is expressing his disappointment and frustration, which are fair enough (there is a bit of moaning there, but not a lot.) I was referring more to the people in the McLaren situation who were pressurising their dealers or calling MSO directly to complain, protest, and lobby for themselves to get special treatment for the MSO HS and BP23.
My third, and this is the source for my contempt at how Porsche handled the situation, is that they let some people know at least a year in advance of the public announcement that they would be doing the 911R. Unlike in normal, or at least historical, limited edition scenarios in which the manufacturer is genuinely uncertain as to how many cars the market will bear (for example, with the P1 McLaren originally hoped to make 500, but weren't sure that the demand would be there so they scaled back prior to launch; Porsche announced in advance that they were hoping to sell 1,500 CGTs, but in the end could shift only 1280 of them), in the case of the 911R Porsche has loads of information about the demand before they ever committed to the size of the production run.
Knowing before they'd made the commitment that the demand was going to be big, Porsche should have either said that it would be an open build-run or, alternatively, announced that the build-run would be 2,000 or 3,000.
Aggravating the situation was their USA-only "VIP" program, under which if you bought a 918 you automatically got on the list for the 911R, 991GT3 RS and 991GT2 RS. This substantially shrank the pool of available 991Rs even further.
Thus Porsche's only excuse for the 911R mess was that they intentionally restricted production in order to create an after-market price bubble, in the hope that that bubble would enhance the appeal of their less desired cars. That was legal as a business practice, but cynical and tacky.
Pablo16v said:
flemke said:
ferrisbueller said:
Flemke, a quickfire threesome, if you'll pardon the expression, if you wouldn't mind please.
A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
I almost added A2 to the list. For what it is, the design is coherent, clean and tight.A2: Yay or Nay? (specifically 1.6FSi derivative).
Healey: Anywhere near completion?
NSX-R: Status?
Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
ferrisbueller said:
I was asking whether you'd recommend an A2 as a town car, with the occasional longer drive of 100 miles or so? They're not easy to locate to have a sniff around. I am curious as to whether they're an exercise in design futility or genuinely good cars.
I did wonder whether you would go for the factory refresh on the NA1. In your position I know I would. Your own, new, NSX-R. You could sell the F1 then
A2 is a brilliant car around town. Enough space within to do most things, and still narrow enough to fit in gaps too small for other cars. Rear seats fold down, tight turning circle, dependable - plenty of assets. As for occasional drive of 100 miles, a fortnight ago owing to unexpected circumstances I took mine on a 200 mile drive - no problemo.I did wonder whether you would go for the factory refresh on the NA1. In your position I know I would. Your own, new, NSX-R. You could sell the F1 then
If you get one, be sure to seek a three-spoke steering wheel - one of the best I have used. Their four-spoke version is not nice.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
XP3 is Gordons.
It's slightly different in that by this stage of the F1 production(as I understand it) McLaren were building "road legal" XP cars. And they only ever built 5 XP's whereas theres quite a few 12C/650s./675/etc/ete XP and PP and VP cars floating around.
These will probably not conform to quite a lot of legislation (or may only need some tweaking). But either way it's expensive.
With the carbon series cars, my understanding was that the extra expense was due to the high reject rate of panels in order to come up with ones with perfect weave?
Was this in fact another very clever marketing exercise and were the panels actually just skinned with an outer layer of carbon post production after the panels were produced as normal?
Could it be that the prototype P1s may in fact have retained their original bodywork as well as the tub?
There is an Enzo doing the rounds in pure carbon, which in reality was just a normal production enzo reskinned to achieve the flawless weave look.
Wondering if Mclaren in fact just did the same?
Was this in fact another very clever marketing exercise and were the panels actually just skinned with an outer layer of carbon post production after the panels were produced as normal?
Could it be that the prototype P1s may in fact have retained their original bodywork as well as the tub?
There is an Enzo doing the rounds in pure carbon, which in reality was just a normal production enzo reskinned to achieve the flawless weave look.
Wondering if Mclaren in fact just did the same?
Partially, but I'm pretty sure the difference isn't that great.
A friend is a composites laminator and did quite a few panels for the P1, including many that are always(?) nude carbon on the regular car, both interior and exterior. As I understand it, it's a pig of a job with a fair reject rate however not enough to warrant the price difference actually achieved.
A friend is a composites laminator and did quite a few panels for the P1, including many that are always(?) nude carbon on the regular car, both interior and exterior. As I understand it, it's a pig of a job with a fair reject rate however not enough to warrant the price difference actually achieved.
flemke said:
I almost added A2 to the list. For what it is, the design is coherent, clean and tight.
Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
Flemke, do you know if the refresh program allows for an upgrade from standard NSX to NSX-R spec? Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
Although I've seen the Japanese website translated across to English I couldn't figure out a ballpark figure for a total refresh, there seems to be some overlap between the various service options.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You do realise that when you buy an F1 you can have it painted and retrimmed by the Factory for a mere few thousand pounds. You don't have to "settle" for another owners choicesCrockefeller said:
Flemke, do you know if the refresh program allows for an upgrade from standard NSX to NSX-R spec?
Although I've seen the Japanese website translated across to English I couldn't figure out a ballpark figure for a total refresh, there seems to be some overlap between the various service options.
Have you got a decent link to this refresh programme?Although I've seen the Japanese website translated across to English I couldn't figure out a ballpark figure for a total refresh, there seems to be some overlap between the various service options.
Rich_W said:
Have you got a decent link to this refresh programme?
Might need translating in your browser but here it is...http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-archive/nsx/2005/speci...
Rich_W said:
XP3 is Gordons.
It's slightly different in that by this stage of the F1 production(as I understand it) McLaren were building "road legal" XP cars. And they only ever built 5 XP's whereas theres quite a few 12C/650s./675/etc/ete XP and PP and VP cars floating around.
These will probably not conform to quite a lot of legislation (or may only need some tweaking). But either way it's expensive.
Nice pictures! The P1 XP/VP/PPs are road legal. They might need to be individually approved in the UK though (I heard of an LT XP in that situation). It's slightly different in that by this stage of the F1 production(as I understand it) McLaren were building "road legal" XP cars. And they only ever built 5 XP's whereas theres quite a few 12C/650s./675/etc/ete XP and PP and VP cars floating around.
These will probably not conform to quite a lot of legislation (or may only need some tweaking). But either way it's expensive.
I'm not sure if it was here that I said it, but there are c. 60 12C preproduction cars! The 650s are trickier as they were mostly built into the 12C production line. One was a converted, quite early 12C which was interesting.
No comment on LTs for now.
PAUL500 said:
With the carbon series cars, my understanding was that the extra expense was due to the high reject rate of panels in order to come up with ones with perfect weave?
Was this in fact another very clever marketing exercise and were the panels actually just skinned with an outer layer of carbon post production after the panels were produced as normal?
Could it be that the prototype P1s may in fact have retained their original bodywork as well as the tub?
There is an Enzo doing the rounds in pure carbon, which in reality was just a normal production enzo reskinned to achieve the flawless weave look.
Wondering if Mclaren in fact just did the same?
Some of the P1s definitely could not have retained their original bodywork as it was not how the P1 now looks. All have been brought up to production spec, to my knowledge. There might be one or two retained by the factory in original spec, but they have not been seen in a while.Was this in fact another very clever marketing exercise and were the panels actually just skinned with an outer layer of carbon post production after the panels were produced as normal?
Could it be that the prototype P1s may in fact have retained their original bodywork as well as the tub?
There is an Enzo doing the rounds in pure carbon, which in reality was just a normal production enzo reskinned to achieve the flawless weave look.
Wondering if Mclaren in fact just did the same?
I've seen that Enzo... not a fan lol. The carbon has yellowed, many pieces are in a reddy carbon and the interior is red alcantara! Altogether memorable, perhaps
Veeayt said:
flemke said:
The question was related just to design of cars produced since 2000, not to how they drive.
I was asking about the design, not the drive, for the simple reason that I'd like to learn what is it about Scirocco. I appreciate it, but cannot express it verbally myself.What I would say about the Scirocco is that it is simple and clean, with not a lot of frills, distractions or diversions.
The next point is that the design is consistent, with the same mentality at the front, sides and rear. Too often the different design teams will do one thing at the front and a different thing at the rear (a sadly obvious example would be the 650S, with a rear designed to go on the 12C and a front related to the design of the P1).
VW got the Scirocco's proportions right by making it lower than the typical hatchback-style car.
In addition to the design being simple and clean, it is dynamic, with a sharp rake to the bonnet, windscreen and A-pillar, a roof line that tapers down towards the rear, and at the same time the line at the bottom of the rear side window slants upwards, creating the suggestion of an aeroplane-style point at the back.
Seen from above, there is again a tapering of the rear of the car, in the manner of the Honda Insight (another good design that I failed to mention in my previous post). This tapering culminates in the lovely compound curvature of the rear window.
The details are also good: for example, the horizontal blades across the air intakes on either side of the front bumper overlap the bodywork just enough to be noticed and create a bit of visual tension, without getting busy. Another nice touch are the upper swage-lines on either side of the rear bumper; they break up what otherwise would look like an empty, flabby expanse.
Overall, a clean, dynamic design with good understanding of curves and proportions.
Rich_W said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
XP3 It's slightly different in that by this stage of the F1 production(as I understand it) McLaren were building "road legal" XP cars. And they only ever built 5 XP's whereas theres quite a few 12C/650s./675/etc/ete XP and PP and VP cars floating around.
These will probably not conform to quite a lot of legislation (or may only need some tweaking). But either way it's expensive.
PAUL500 said:
With the carbon series cars, my understanding was that the extra expense was due to the high reject rate of panels in order to come up with ones with perfect weave?
Was this in fact another very clever marketing exercise and were the panels actually just skinned with an outer layer of carbon post production after the panels were produced as normal?
Could it be that the prototype P1s may in fact have retained their original bodywork as well as the tub?
There is an Enzo doing the rounds in pure carbon, which in reality was just a normal production enzo reskinned to achieve the flawless weave look.
Wondering if Mclaren in fact just did the same?
Was this in fact another very clever marketing exercise and were the panels actually just skinned with an outer layer of carbon post production after the panels were produced as normal?
Could it be that the prototype P1s may in fact have retained their original bodywork as well as the tub?
There is an Enzo doing the rounds in pure carbon, which in reality was just a normal production enzo reskinned to achieve the flawless weave look.
Wondering if Mclaren in fact just did the same?
Sway said:
Partially, but I'm pretty sure the difference isn't that great.
A friend is a composites laminator and did quite a few panels for the P1, including many that are always(?) nude carbon on the regular car, both interior and exterior. As I understand it, it's a pig of a job with a fair reject rate however not enough to warrant the price difference actually achieved.
.A friend is a composites laminator and did quite a few panels for the P1, including many that are always(?) nude carbon on the regular car, both interior and exterior. As I understand it, it's a pig of a job with a fair reject rate however not enough to warrant the price difference actually achieved.
Sway is right. The reject rate is the source of the increased cost, with a big multiplier applied for the retail price (as is the norm for any option on an expensive car).
McLaren absolutely do not merely laminate an extra cosmetic layer onto the pre-existing carbon panels.
Crockefeller said:
flemke said:
I almost added A2 to the list. For what it is, the design is coherent, clean and tight.
Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
Flemke, do you know if the refresh program allows for an upgrade from standard NSX to NSX-R spec? Healey: not yet, maybe in another life! It's been with a chap who has made a number of improvements, I saw him and the car a couple of months ago and he told me that he would be getting to the next stage soon. As a substitute, I have been thinking about the Kirkham Cobra, but too busy to start that process.
NSX-R: Honda have an extensive factory "refresh" program for NSXs. The program was out of operation for a while but has just resumed. I am sending the car to that, a better option I think than having someone in the UK do the work.
Although I've seen the Japanese website translated across to English I couldn't figure out a ballpark figure for a total refresh, there seems to be some overlap between the various service options.
Wrt cost, in round numbers I reckoned that a total refresh (colour change, rebuilt engine, 'box, suspension, brakes, interior retrimmed) would be IRO £75-85k.
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